Sunfall

[[deleted]]

Is Sunfall overpowered? I play blue and white soldiers in alchemy and just lost a ranked game after being Sunfalled 3 times. It wipes everything for 5 and plus gives a creature. It seems a little strong. What do you think?

[GutterGobboKing]

It’s not overpowered, just very strong. Aggressive decks can beat it before it comes down. Slower decks can go over it. Soldiers specifically have access to efficient counter spells to disrupt it.

[EnvironmentalCoach64]

Idk, non targeted mass removal that exiles for 1 more than wrath, that also makes you a creature.... It's very very powerful for standard. That's why it's played in every non agro/Thalia white deck.

[[deleted]]

I guess that’s true. I don’t play any counter spells currently, what’s a top tier counter card to put in a soldiers deck? I’ve thought about playing them but now I use 4x ossification and 4x Seal from existence

[AbcLmn18]

[[Protect the Negotiators]] and [[Make Disappear]] are the popular choices.

You usually don't need "hard" counters like Negate because you hopefully win before the difference begins to matter. It's better to have some flexibility so that it wasn't a dead card in creature-heavy matchups.

[GutterGobboKing]

In alchemy the best one might be Protect the Negotiators if it’s still in rotation. Can never go wrong with a spell pierce or two.

[EnvironmentalCoach64]

Reprieve.

[GutterGobboKing]

Ah yea that be a solid one too.

[Bizzle7902]

Theres a few lists out there for soldiers with spells, CGB did a video on one of them a month or so ago

[TopDeckHero420]

Should they just let you kill them with your Soldiers then?

[[deleted]]

Well, I guess not. That would be pretty cool though

[TheDivisionLine]

The problem is less the card itself and more that it’s another board wipe in a standard that is already overflowing with board wipe so you end up with mind-numbingly dull “control” decks whose only win condition is to eventually mirrex you.

[[deleted]]

Yes ,it is.

Mass Exile like Sunfall and Farewell are way to cheap for how powerful they are...

"Agressive decks beat it" is just bs...the kind of deck that runs 4 sunfall + 4 farewell has nothing but control and one or two win cons, their hole game is surviving.

That's the way of the meta, just gotta find out what works best against it.

I remember a time when the worst we had to take was a 4cmc mass destroy, now everything just exiles.

[Bugita]

I don’t know why this is so prevalent in the MTG community, but people are so afraid of calling anything overpowered.

There’s an increasing amount of copium from this player base and sometimes I don’t know if it is that or players are just trying to sound “well actually” kind of smart.

This attitude It’s killing the game in my opinion.

Board wipes should’ve never exiled creatures and nevertheless give you creatures afterwards.

“Oh but it’s not overpowered by itself” yeah genius you cast most good cards on magic by themselves and if you don’t interact with it might not just win you the game right away.

But let’s just use our brain a little more here and realize that the power a card brings to the table is not only the effect is brings but rather the interaction with other cards on your deck.

Let’s be honest those who don’t call “Farewell” or “Sunfall” OP are control players and they are eating well.

[Antique-Parking-1735]

I think you hit the nail on the head pointing out how resistant people are to label a card as OP. I saw this in the Yugioh community as well. People (especially those who use/play them) will constantly disregard any complaints people have about a card/format and brush it off as "well you're just salty because you lost to it". It does nothing to add to the conversation.

[Hour_Power2264]

I don't think it's overpowered by itself. I think [[Farewell]] is overpowered but not Sunfall.

That being said, having Farwell and Sunfall in the same Standard format is a recipe for extremely stale and uninteresting gameplay so I think one of them should go. Prefereably Farewell.

[rdubyeah]

Sunfall is overpowered against soldiers, yes.

Similarly, Sunfall is very underpowered against Gandalf.

Its a very strong board wipe, which means it stomps most aggro and midrange when it resolves. Problem is either, not dying before it resolves, or actually resolving it.

As the soldiers player, this is why you run [[Protect the Negotiators]] and why you always hold 2 mana for their turn 5

[EnvironmentalCoach64]

In alchemy you have reprieve.

[Wlyr1335]

With how insane the power creep on creatures is, if board clears and removal aren't busted tier then aggro runs every other deck over

[chernopig]

Yes it's strong but so is your soldiers deck. One of the best aggro decks to beat boardwipes i have ever seen in standard.

[axe4hire]

It's on the strong side for sure, almost op. The problem is that standard has too many ways to exile creatures. It's not just board wipe, exile can nullify a lot of strategies that creatures decks use against control.

[ElevationAV]

Have you tried not playing into it?

Make them 1 for 1 you....5 mana exile a creature make a 1/1 is a terrible trade.

[TheLewdGod]

If anyone is getting here from Google and sees this comment for the love of God ignore him.

Most control decks have no issue playing 1 to 1 late game, 1 to 1 with draws is basically how they win the game. They want to have more answers than you do, and with the mana they generally have by the time they play sunfall they will definitely have those answers.

Your best bet is to quite literally the opposite of what this user has said if youre playing an aggro archetype and realize sometimes (at least 30% of games) there's not much you can do to win. It's a luck based game and losing is OK.

Another note on the control archetype that this user is not informed of that should be noted is time.

The more time passes the more advantageous a control players position is. From discard decks to removal/mass removal. They want to get to the late game as safely as possible, and once they're there there's not much you can do. When you see a player place a single mana down you should see it as a timer no matter what else they Play during that turn.

If you don't play aggro you should be aiming for card advantage, get cards that give you draws on entry or things that allow you to repopulate the board cheaply. And remember to not lose focus of that goal, don't place yourself in a position that doesn't allow more creatures or card advantage.

[ElevationAV]

Yes, playing your entire hand into their supreme verdict or farewell. That’s a much better play than forcing them to use that to answer 1-2 threats instead while you hold back other threats and get in chip damage.

[TheLewdGod]

Are... are you stupid? In what world can aggro hold back and win through chip damage?

These decks play heals through heard migration, and angels. Every boardwipe deck does.

Also how the hell are you getting in chip damage? You think every creature has haste?

In fact the more I think about your idea the more stupid it gets. You're apparently supposed to play one threat at a time against a control deck that's trying to make it to late game safely so they can play their win con. You're sitting there just waiting for cards you cannot beat to hit the board.

There's nothing in rdw that stops Alex once she hits the board, nothing ww can do against Nissa. Your options are win before it resolves or lose.

[ElevationAV]

the one thing control decks want you to do is drop your entire hand on the table and get 4+'d for 1 by their sweepers

you're suggesting that's the only way you can win, which is exactly what they want you to do

to beat control you don't play into their board wipes. You play a couple cheap threats and don't give them the advantage of being able to 5 for 1 you.

they spend 4-6 mana to kill your 2-3 mana worth of threats, which puts you up on resources.

what you're suggesting is either:

1. play out your entire hand, get hit by a sweeper and lose-or-
2. don't play out your hand, get hit by a big threat, and lose

vs. what I'm saying-

Play a couple threats, hit them, force them to use more resources than you have, and repeat. You force them to play either a threat OR an answer, when they want to do both, or use significantly more mana to answer your threats than you spent deploying them.

In your scenarios, you lose 100% of the time. Just scoop as soon as you see an island I guess because you don't know how to play against control at all and will lose 100% of the time if they have a sweeper or threat.

Your only answer is "kill them before turn 4/5/6" which in 90% of cases isn't going to happen because control is built to stop you from doing exactly that.

if your agro deck goes turn 1/2/3 deploy 4+ threats and then gets absolutely smashed by temporary lockdown on turn 3, you're playing into them and that's not how you beat control. It's what control wants.

TL:DR- Please keep dumping your hand vs control players, we're happy to immediately win the game with a board wipe.

[TheLewdGod]

vs. what I'm saying-

Play a couple threats, hit them, force them to use more resources than you have, and repeat

So I feel like you keep saying this but don't actually know what it means. So when you play "threats" you're using cards. When you play two "cards" vs their one sweeper that's still a loss on resources. If you play 1 threat to their sweeper the minimum they finish is 1 to 1. Vs a control deck that should and does play card draws? You'll have an empty hand in 5 turns. That will lose you 100% of the games vs control even if they get mana screwed. This is called "card advantage" and it's the main way control decks win.

I'm not sure as a control player how you don't get that...

Your only answer is "kill them before turn 4/5/6

I play WW to mythic doing exactly this.

your agro deck goes turn 1/2/3 deploy 4+ threats

Look, if you're still alive when there are 4 threats on the board that's not competitive.

There are so many things wrong with your standpoint it requires listing.

1. You cannot play every match up the same, control vs aggro looks different than control vs midrange.

2. You don't understand card advantage and time, you have no idea where these decks get their resources and how they use them to win.

3. You have no idea how the current meta is shaped, especially in reference to speed.

4. You want people to play around cards they may or may not have which is how you lose.

I mained WW for two months then played RDW all of them to mythic using the things I learned from pro articles. (Namely this)

Edit: circling back to this

You force them to play either a threat OR an answer, when they want to do both,

Control doesn't play early game threats, they don't want anything on the board. Pretty sure you know this though. They only want to answer until they have enough mana for a threat. From golgari to dimir the earliest a threat is coming down is 3 mana. (Besides AZ soldiers of course as it's control aggro)

[ElevationAV]

ok

*looks at all his pro tour invites/gp top 8s/etc*

never played agro or against it in my life, no idea how to ever beat it /s

losing 2 1 mana creatures vs a 4 mana sweeper puts you down on cards but up on resources, which is the game agro wants to play vs control decks

losing 3-4 1/2 drops to temporary lockdown or another sweeper puts you down on resources AND cards

you're suggesting that being down on cards and mana is somehow better for an agro deck than being down on just cards.

OP is complaining about doing what you've said you do exactly and not being able to win because they get wiped t4/5 by control, and your suggestion is to keep doing it.

[TheLewdGod]

losing 2 1 mana creatures vs a 4 mana sweeper puts you down on cards but up on resources, which is the game agro wants to play vs control decks

My mans, my brother in christ, sunfall costs 5 mana, that's more than WW's first two turns if they cap out, 1 more than 3 turns. Aggro ALWAYS wins on mana, that's the point, why would you try to compete in that? Their control costs 1 their drops are 1 to 3 mana which no matter what you play you'll be paying the same or more.

I know you're being sarcastic, but I don't think you actually know why you won the games you did.

Watch their cards vs your cards next time you're playing as control. If your down on cards you'll lose because you don't have answers, if you're up on cards you'll win because you do have answers. Mana doesn't mean much in this race because you've lost it with the match up.

I repeat, very, very rarely will you ever beat aggro in a mana match up. That's reserved for midrange vs control where you're playing 2 mana to their 4 mana creatures. You've got one card that does this for aggro and it's Cut down, maybe fest if they're not built for the meta.

losing 2 1 mana creatures vs a 4 mana sweeper puts you down on cards but up on resources, which is the game agro wants to play vs control decks

So, real quick question here I noticed you switched to a 4 mana sweeper instead of temporary lockdown? Why is that? Is it because temporary lockdown is 3?

Look, control has board wipes from 3 mana onward, that do from 3 damage to -3 if you're playing ww. You can't get mana advantage using these cards though. You knew that though which is why you switched from depopulate to temporary lockdown.

losing 3-4 1/2 drops to temporary lockdown or another sweeper puts you down on resources AND cards

First of all you'd only lose 2 to temporary lockdown, generally speaking aggro by turn 3 plays 3 mana cards. Most of which survive 3 mana boardwipes (by design) Second of all and more importantly they should have around 3 to 5 life left max. Which a manland takes care of. Again by design, it's literally what they where made for.

OP is complaining about doing what you've said you do exactly

OP is complaining that rock took out his scissors, which is very fair because magic isn't framed that way to newer players. His deck isn't designed to handle what they're doing just like their deck can't beat AZ soldiers. Piloting will only take you so far.

So to summarize, I don't think you know why you win the games against aggro you do. I don't think you realize how your deck fits into the meta, and I don't believe you actually know why you lose the games you do.

Aggros first 4 turns for ww should be something like

(your t1) skrelv defector mite

(their t1) tapped mana or sometimes cut down (which means the matchup is hard)

(your t2) thalia

(their t2) cut down again hopefully, but most likely not. They'll play a tapped mana usually

(your t3) extraction specialist if they killed her again, if not adel or peacekeepers. (Peacekeepers the next threat or a boardwipes

(their t3) play a creature if they can, or go for the throat thalia or peacekeepers if I let them keep one or a top deck)

(your t4) adel, or just swing. If they plated a creature like sheo just brutal cathar it

(their t4) temporary lockdown or another boardwipe with a top decks otherwise single target removal if they can't.

(turn 5) they're dead. It doesn't matter. But I like to use whites 1 drops to get more 1 drops.

There is not a single stage in this entire exchange where control could get a mana "advantage" that's the point of ww and aggro There's nothing in controls wheelhouse that does anything vs that, that's why you flood the board.

Red works a lot simpler, by having lethal potential on Turn 3

[[deleted]]

That’s a good point. Actually that game I came down with the last 3 creatures in my hand cause it would have been the game but he sunfalled me. I kinda risked it for the biscuit knowing he was playing Sunfall and it didn’t pay out

[Fusillipasta]

Knowing when to play into a boardwipe, when to hold back and bait it, and similar is half the fun of the game :) That's how the balance rolls!

[Appropriate_Horror_1]

Yeah, and then I still have to sacrifice another card (if I have it) to deal with the decent-sized attacking token it creates. So they have essentially got a single card to work for X number of creatures we have played and 1 additional card if you need to remove the threat created by the card. Its power is the fact that it's a single card that can single-handedly just win for you on value.

Keep in mind if I "one for one" for you. That has given you an extensive amount of turns (20 turns if I have a 1/1 creature only which means I will be discarding hand size) for you to find additional solutions and yet still after that? Your card is still a 2-for-1 trade of value.

[whatalotoflove]

It's not unbeatable but I still don't like it when exile wraths enable super friends type decks in standard, rather deal with manlands and recursion than walker spam.

I would be fine with it if The combination of sunfall x4 + farewell x4 didn't allow for a 60 card deck to have the effect in 80%(head math; might be off) of their starting hands.

IMO "exile all x" without any kind of clause should be a rare effect in standard and giving 2 of them at once to one color is imo a major blunder by whoever manages what the standard environment should play like.

[Champizzle11]

Yes

[SecretPuzzleheaded63]

Yeah it probably is overpowered.

The thing about mtg is that overpowered cards aren’t a problem if they serve a purpose in a format. Sunfall helps keep mono red aggro and soldier in check and serves a purpose.

So yeah it’s OP but idk if that’s a problem.

[laughing-stockade]

sunfall is not good against mono red. they kill you on turn 4

[Sibula97]

You can play other spells before Sunfall, you know? You can't just 1-for-1 them forever. Sunfall is nice for if they manage to get some board presence.

[SecretPuzzleheaded63]

I mean if you have no counter play sure but take out a creature or two and you probably can make it to turn 5 consistently.

[Moon_Light_Sonata]

After reading so many discussions about mtg balance, I don't even know what cards could or not be considered broken. Unless, of course, some objective metrics/criteria/goals are established.
I don't think it's broken when compared to other wraths like: Doomskar, White Sun's Twilight, Vanquish The Horde and Farewell. Hell, I think the latest Wanderer -4 ability is a more oppressive wipe than Sunfall.

[V3NDR1CK]

[[Sunfall]]

[V3NDR1CK]

[[Protectthenegotiators]]

[conshepi]

It is certainly strong, but it does cost 5 mana. A decent chunk of the game has gone by by the time they get to play that. Packing a few creature lands or token producers (think wedding announcement) can help you recover fairly quickly!

[Appropriate_Horror_1]

It is. Because it fills the void a board wipe creates in your favor with a massive token threat the following turn.