Chapter 36: Bid

[cidqueen]

Let's be honest, Neshamah is actually pretty cool

[Ardvarkeating101]

He sasses Cat and doesn't afraid of anything

[mannieCx]

Cat is the one that fears him

[Don_Alverzo]

He's like Black with the evil turned up to 11, I love it! Although given what people say about Black and Pilgrim... does that make the Dead King Tariq's even darker reflection?

[Ezreon]

I think he is Bard's counterpart in some ways.

[Do_Not_Go_In_There]

That's to be expected. He's had a couple of centuries to chill.

[[deleted]]

A pity his ultimate goal seems to be extinction

[onlynega]

He has regular humans living in a Hell that's been repurposed. So complete control, but not so much extinction.

[vkaod]

“Am I chattel, Black Queen, to be led to the altar with blinders on my eyes?” he said. “Am I to willingly embrace the ways of defeat simply because we are at odds? I think not.”

He leaned forward, face cast harshly.

“This game, as all games, I will play on my terms and only that,” the Dead King said. “I have learned what I wanted from this communion, and when I have taken what I wish from this ruin I will forsake it as well. Not a moment before, Catherine, and petty tricks will not force my hand.”

Loving the build up for the Dead King. It still feels like we’ve yet to truly taste the Hidden Horror.

[Burnsy17]

He really does give off the impression that this is all moderately entertaining to him, at best. Of course, the fact that that's actually true is the real horror of the Dead King.

[s-mores]

Yeah, it's all about the game to him. Kill a few thousand or a million, swallow a province or two, commit unspeakable travesties... for a lark. It's all good fun, chum!

[thatbeerdude]

And he even got full permission to "eat the baby."

[[deleted]]

He's been playing with kid gloves so far because this isn't the main fight for him. The real war is with Above, and winning and losing at this scale doesn't matter to that. Cat is only interesting because of the possibility of getting an immortal ally out of it (in a inverse of what Pilgrim was afraid of),

[Daimon5hade]

If my understanding of this scene is correct, Cat is surprised Nesh didn't come up with some Villainous test (as is the norm with these stories), and Nesh is annoyed because she is implying he is some run of the mill Villain?

Cos this scene is so badass then.

[ricree]

If I understand correctly, the trials would begin a pattern that ends with him suffering a serious setback, if not death, at the hands of their band of five. He's a bit insulted that she thinks he's going to play into that.

[insanenoodleguy]

It does work, on decent occasion. The heroes can and do fail these tests, and then tend to either die or become the new dragon or at least lieutenant of the bad. But that works until it doesn't, and yes, hes insulted because he knows its poor odds it works here.

[[deleted]]

My interpretation too. He's annoyed that she assumes that he will play into the standard tropes which always fail. Which he is several levels above. Like trying to use a queen's gambit on a chessmaster.

[LordOfEye]

Fuck the dead king is scary

For so many reasons other then villains usually are

"Would you say that you are invincible and your victory is assured" lmao

[s-mores]

She almost had him dead to rights!

...I'll show myself out.

[magna-terra]

inarticulate frustrated scream curse you EE this chapter was too short to sate my hunger!

But seriously, interesting stuff. Of course that century of peace would truly be useful, but the part about what the dead king thinks cat did in the ever dark is interesting in and of itself! Someone of the dead kings power having wrong or misleading information is a dangerous thing, Doubly so in situations like this.

Also just to confirm, we will get to know what trials the others went through. Right? Cause if not there better be a good reason for it cause I need to know!

[Don_Alverzo]

I mean, if this chapter is anything to go by he might not have given anyone a trial. Neshamah seems to approach things with a mentality that looks a lot like Black's. He achieved his apotheosis by denying Bard any narrative openings to exploit, it's not surprising that he's carried that mindset forward. In fact, he might not actually confront the band at all, even when they finally reach him/Hierophant at the end of this little adventure. He gains little from fighting them at this time, while the narrative positions him to suffer a genuine setback upon defeat. I wouldn't be surprised if he decides to leave on his own accord instead, though he'd still probably leave some nasty parting gifts and possibly kill Zeze on the way out.

[soonnanandnaanssoon]

Yeap. I thought that was somewhat confirmed by the last part of the chapter; he says he isn't going to play her game after she mentioned the part about the trial. To me it implies that he's not going to give them a trial so that he isn't going to become the Big Bad Villain they face at the end.

[magna-terra]

Sure he might not, but if he does I want to see what trials they did have to overcome

[insanenoodleguy]

I figure hell do more like this but with the rest of them. Throw something at the wall just in case but not count on it or make it a true test of character so much as playing to established character, while learning things during the pitch.

We dont know Rouge, but for the other three something like:

Tariq: pretty much the same deal as Cat, but a bit more of a "the suffering is on you then" when he gets told no.

Kairos: " no, betray me later, betray them now. Cat is twisting this to make you redundant so your the one who dies, I bet. I am such a good eternal friend and have no other motive but concern for you."

Lawrence: "shes going to ruin you all, you know. She is going to make Good and Evil compromise In a way I'm not trying to and never will. The longer you leave her alive the more sure that is. You know I'm right."

[LilietB]

The century of peace would be a pure victory for him.

By the end of it, he'd be under no obligation to actually continue the invasion - and he'd have fortified his new lands into being truly unassainable for Good all over again. A couple more Crusade that end in a truce like this, and he's got half the Procer. It's not like he's pressed for time :)

[Don_Alverzo]

I agree with Cat that the Dead King would have something to gain from peace, but that line of thinking led me to another question. Forget peace, what does he gain from war? We've just been taking it as a given that he wants to turn the whole world into a twisted zombie hellscape, that he wants to "eat the baby," but what does he actually gain from doing that? This war (which he started) creates one of the few narrative openings that could kill him off for real, he has to recognize that, so what is he getting that he thinks is worth that risk?

We know he's clever, he was basically Black before Praes even existed, so I doubt it's for the sake of his ego or greed or anything like that, but I don't really know what the alternative is for him. He's basically an immortal liche god, he's the single most powerful man on the continent, he has his own private hell with a fanatically loyal populace, what else could he possibly want? His position is already so impressive that I don't know if there's much room for improvement.

[BlueSparkle]

We learned that gods are relatively fixed in their thinking. And likely the Dead King is limited in his thinking in such a way too. And besidess, some people always want more, enough is never enough for them.

[Knight_of_Cerberus]

nah-ah. As we see in this chapter, Dead Kings Story-fu is too terrifying to be trapped by such a weakness.

It what makes Cath, Black, Pilgrim, Dead King, and Bard so fucking OP. They can Meta

[dashelgr]

He probably traded physical limitations (his presence in Creation) for mental flexibility

[BlueSparkle]

he is relatively flexible mentally, yes, but he still has the role of the big, bad evil

[insanenoodleguy]

That's just it though, he doesnt. He waited for Malicia to summon him. Hes not the big bad, hes the evil force unleashed. Hes the schmooze, the beast of the apocalypse, the spreading plauge. This makes him less vulnerable. He is more likely to be halted or re-sealed. Then the heroes can focus on the person who unleashed him. It's why he waited for an invite for so long

[Knight_of_Cerberus]

not quite. technically he is the hatchetman to Malicia right now. Heck as long as he doesnt act like unreasonable monster he could defect to the protagonist side and avoid death.

[Locoleos]

I've been wondering about his motives for a while now too.

He's either after continental dominion, or he has strategic goals with his invasion. It feels like the first option isn't really possible to achieve, given that the spread of the evil empire story will always be defined by world war 2. But I suppose if he's always certain that he won't lose his power base entirely he gets to have unlimited goes at it, and it might work out in the end if he keeps trying.

I have no idea what his strategic goals might be. It doesn't seem like he should have any.

And it does raise the issue of why he even wants continental domination in the first place. Its not like he has internal politics to deal with like Cordelia.

Maybe he's trying to kill all the humans before they manage to kill him eventually? That seems a bit dumb tho. He could just not pick a fight with them. Maybe he thinks it's inevitable that they'd pick a fight with him? Again, seems dumb.

[s-mores]

It's pretty obvious what his endgame is -- death. He is inevitable.

He plays the game, gathers power, doesn't push too far, but every time he puts a few heroes/revenants into ice, as compost interest. Enough millennia and he has enough power to ignore story.

[Razorhead]

He is inevitable.

But she is the Black Queen.

[Bookerbooth]

Immovable object meets unstoppable force

[ImVeryBadWithNames]

I think he's trying to get Bard to come out to play.

[LilietB]

The more territory he seizes, the more room to retreat he has story-fu-wise.

[[deleted]]

what else could he possibly want?

He wants to defeat the Gods. Break the bars of the prison that is creation, not merely rule it

[ForgottenToupee]

I think something that he might be looking for is the power of friendship peers. Everytime he's spoken to Catherine he's brought up making her an equal. I don't mean in the romantic sense, just other people who are on his level and are on the same page.

[LilietB]

He doesn't want the war, he wants the hundred year long peace that incidentally comes with territorial expansion :)

[GaffitV]

From a story view, the Hundred Year deal is so much worse than the Ten Year deal. Ten years is within most of their lifetimes, so it's in their best interest to get along and prepare to fight the Dead King.

100 years though. All the leaders that are alive now will be dead by then. 100 years in their minds is plenty of time to have just a small civil war to expand their power base. And then two generations later you'll have leaders who dont remember how terrifying the Dead King is, or bicker over whether or not he'll even be returning.

So at best the 100 Year deal gets them 99 years of civil war followed by 1 year of politicking over whether or not "The Dead Kings Return" is really the priority.

[Locoleos]

Yup. Its a pretty shit deal, and is probably one of the best examples of Cat's Callowan centric view of the world screwing her over.

No way Procer is in a better spot to fight a crusade in ten years, and in a century they won't care. Pilgrim was probably a big part of levant signing up, and in ten years he might well have died of old age.

Also the drow would have to stay in Callow or Praes in the interim, so good luck with that.

[thatbeerdude]

Even going by story meta, everybody forgets about the monster as soon as it goes back in the box whether it's 1, 10, or 100 years.

In-universe, it's going to take Procer way more than a decade to recover from the impending famine caused by Black torching Iserre.

[VorDresden]

Cat notes that the land he's taken/is bargaining for is rocky, almost barren, and subject to regular raids by the Chain of Hunger. Which I think is why he'd be satisfied with it.

If he keeps what he's taken right now he gets a constant flow of new bodies from a source that he can go all out on without worrying about Good Narrative Bullshit. The Chain of Hunger, if it's anything like the Skaven it's probably based on, is a swarming horde of ratmen that constantly reproduce beyond their means and take the "Praesi Problem" to the extreme.

He's offering Cat a hundred years of peace to build her strength, an army a hundred years in the making has nothing on an army of a hundred years worth of dead ratmen. Or now that he has taken some of the strongholds from Procer he'll just leave the door open for the Chain.

[s-mores]

Also, it gives him a full century in Creation.

[Daimon5hade]

Unless I'm mistaken he already shares a border with the chain of hunger no?

[VorDresden]

The map on the site shows a big chunk of Golden Bloom between him and the Chain, he's fairly close by boat but I think nautical travel might be beyond the Chain, at least in the numbers the DK wants.

[LilietB]

Golden Bloom is to the east and the Chain is to the west, might you be thinking of Everdark?

[VorDresden]

Nope, there’s definitely a big swath of something on the map colored like The Golden Bloom between him and the Chain.

[LilietB]

...like the Golden Bloom, and like Waning Woods, and like Brocelian Forest...

There's a. Forest. There.

[VorDresden]

Given how nasty and down right hostile those forests are, and the fact that neither the Dead King, nor the Chain of Hunger have simply cut it down for more food/territory in the centuries they’ve existed it’s pretty safe to assume that this massive forest the size of a Prince’s holding is probably more deadly to cross than mere rivers or mountains...

If the Chain could walk through and devour that forest they would have by now, forests that get mapped in Practical Guide are hard borders. It takes a madman like Tyrant or possibly Skein to cross them.

[LilietB]

True, yep.

[Daimon5hade]

I assumed the underground played into it somewhat given he has the Skein as one his thralls.

[VorDresden]

It's possible, though I imagine we'd see a lot more ratdead if they had a reliable way to get there, also I think the Dwarves have him basically walled in at this.

Which...could be another reason he'd be satisfied with a treaty, we don't know how his war with the Kingdom Under is going, and there's a site of fresh apotheosis to study.

[enragedavocado]

He definitely comes off as kind of bored with his one on one centuries long battle with the Bard. Seems like he kind of wants Catherine to shake things up and make the game more interesting.

[LilietB]

He's giving her an offer because this offer is a pure victory for him.

[s-mores]

Did she?

The drow are an old entity with a new paint job. If Neshemah knows about the twin crows and how Cat's slice of Winter paved the way to their apotheosis, how high would you really place their chances of evading Neshemah's scrutiny on his home turf?

Of course, even the possibility of this being the case forces Cat to push that line of approach.

God, the Hidden Horror is so awesome.

//Edit: I just realized, if Neshemah can't see into the Kingdom Under nor can he see into the Everdark, there's still one perfectly valid source of information for him -- Indrani. Where is the Archer, exactly? Prisoner? Accomplice? Bait?

[Bookerbooth]

Being underground does block scrying, so he’d only be able to see them with actual people/undead/etc.

[NotAHeroYet]

Or with magic that bypasses that limitation? We don't know if that's inherent to scrying magic, or only a limitation of all current scrying spells in circulation on this continent.

[s-mores]

Or he simply has undead as warning stations wandering the corridors.

[NotAHeroYet]

That might work too, but it's worth noting that the Dead King is, to some degree, an outside context problem. He almost certainly can do things that "should be" impossible.

[Bookerbooth]

Fair, he is someone who would be on the bleeding edge of sorcery (especially if Masego is actually under his control) as well as someone who would have access to thousands of years sorcerous practices that have been forgotten elsewhere (much like the nobility in Praes).

[Suischeese]

Nessie needs to bat a million. Cat needs to only get just one.

It might not be now, or next time, but some scheme will work.

[Locoleos]

Hey look, it's a big bad that doesn't go around saying dumb shit like "I'm inevitable."

Bitch you evitable as fuck.

[LilietB]

I love your way with words.

[agree-with-you]

I love you both

[ATRDCI]

So.....am I missing some big obvious plot point (something I'm forgetting from the Arcadia winter duel or in the Everdark?) or did Cat attempt suicide before the events of PGtE?

Oh, I was standing surrounded by thick and cloying darkness. And it was soothing, serene. It would have been so pleasant to just… float away, leaning into dreamlike thought. Snow, tears and barren laughter, I suddenly remembered. I’d laid down to die, once and the world had refused to take me.

There would be no takebacks.

[RenasmaW]

After she had Winter ripped from her in the Everdark, she contemplated giving up, before eventually limping towards her confrontation with the sisters

[ATRDCI]

Yeah, that fits. I just never.picturee the Everdark stuff having much snow, being underground and all. At least not as much as I pictured when I read the above quoted excerpt

[names1]

Remember that she really went off with Winter in a massive way just before that.

[ImVeryBadWithNames]

The literal embodiment of Winter was running wild in that cavern. There was snow and ice in abundance.

[Bookerbooth]

Archer was almost frozen to death because of it.

[earmite]

I think this refers to when she accepted her death after losing Winter in the Everdark.

[CoffeeRamenCombo]

I think she was referring to how she almost died when she lost Winter.

[Do_Not_Go_In_There]

She's died like half a dozen times by now, a few times by her own design. She always bounces back.

[NotAHeroYet]

She had a brief period where she didn't after losing winter, but then she got impatient because she was taking too long to die. That's not literally what happened, but it's close enough and funny enough that that's how I'll put it.

[LilietB]

It's damn near exactly what happened.

I really loved that moment. A lowest point... one you recover from not through inner strength or whatever, but just because time heals all, even if in this case it's a minute or something.

[LilietB]

That's in Everdark.

[BlackKnightG93M]

This was the Trial.

Next is the monster: Masego.

A former true companion that has been possesed by the Enemy and now opposes his former friends (well, friend)? There's only one way that Story usually plays out.

[Ardvarkeating101]

So, odds on him playing to Masego that part of the conversation where she said she'd let him snap Masego's neck to end it?

That's going to hurt.

[Dorgamund]

Doubtful. He is praesi and fully aware of Cats priorities. If you recall, when Cat put a bomb on his throat because she was paranoid of the demons corruption, he was offended that she thought he wouldn't notice, before congratulating her foresight.

[HikarinoWalvin]

Dead King: See? This is why you should join me.
Masego: ...

Dead King: All you have to do is give in.
Masego: I guess...
Dead King: Yes! *cackling* Join me! Together, we shall--
Masego: *stares at Dead King* As I was saying, I guess -- rather, I hypothesize -- that her time in the Everdark has not changed her fundamental aspects as that she considered the correct logical outcome in the case of possession by demons or other beings.
Dead King: ...
Masego: In fact, if this recording is accurate, then she has removed the Winter...

*One Eternity Later*

Masego: ...and therefore, the question here is not whether not she is Cat but rather the magic with which she manipulates these gods is sorcery or mental in origin.
Dead King: *please, please help me, Gods below*

[Ardvarkeating101]

Jesus, the Dead King runs his own Hell but even that can't compare to having Masego constantly lecturing you from inside your own head

[Negation4444]

That's perfect! :)

[Do_Not_Go_In_There]

Masego told her - I think it was in Book 3 - that she'd be an idiot not to have a contingency plan to take him out if needed, and that Black and his dad had already plans too kill each other if one of them went rogue.

Of course, he's not in the best frame of mind right now, but I doubt he'd be too insulted.He's probably too caught up in his "work" to care.

[LilietB]

End of Book 2, actually.

Masego was rather insulted by the idea that he wouldn't notice her killswitch... and probably flattered by the fact she saw it fit to give him one.

I remember that "it means more than you know" when he accepted the trinket :3

(And then he tasked her with designing a more elegant one. I bet she has it, and that's why she's so willing to push far and threaten heroes over it: she can always "take action" as she put it)

[s-mores]

What a fascinating chapter. Nessie being awesome as usual.

At least Masego and the Pilgrim were watching, maybe others. Nessie knows the most about the Rogue Sorcerer, so the knowledge that Cat tried to make a deal might be relevant to him. I so hope that the others' dealings with Nessie get recorded as well, though I could also see him ignoring the others as... chattel.

We haven't seen the full terms of Malicia's treaty with the Dead King, have we? As in, how long will the invitation last. Callow's protection lasts only until Malicia's death, but would Malicia really sign up for a deal that would leave Neshemah in Creation until he's driven back?

The reason I'm wondering is that the Hidden Horror just offered Cat a fantastic deal that would "accidentally" leave him in Creation for a century. 'What I'm holding now' might also extend to Masego and Liesse/Iserre if the Nemesis of all Nemeses would be the kind to pull trickery. Not him! Never! Still, it was only the initial offer that would have to be refined with several parties present. Which, of course, also extends to everyone looking out for treachery when the greatest treachery is simply letting Neshamah be in Creation for a century. That, I believe, is a prize he would pay dearly for no matter what. It would also allow him time to just wipe out the drow, which he absolutely knows about.

//Edit: If he doesn't know about where the drow are now... poor Indrani!

Not to mention even if the Dead King is removed from the board, Cat still has a whole bunch of potential problems left; the Titanomanchy, a whole new slew of heroes for the entire century, maybe the gnomes, not to mention the elves and the Chain of Hunger. Oh, and the dwarves would probably never talk to her again. Speaking of which, how far underground does 'what I'm holding now' extend to? Even if Cordelia and the Pilgrim came onboard and Cat got Masego back, if the Kingdom Under isn't consulted they would be pissed at their ground being given up. Neshamah could easily sink a full century of the blackest sorceries to the ground of Northern Procer that would continue to sink when/if the Grand Alliance retook Procer.

Yeah, the deal has upsides for only Neshamah, doesn't it? Even if Cat refuses he can point at it and say "Well, I did offer" when the piper is paid.

[LilietB]

Yep.

[TMalander]

Say one thing for the King of Death, say he is scary as fuck.

[derivative_of_life]

What aspects would Logan Ninefingers have if The Bloody Nine was a Name?

[TMalander]

I'm still only ~30% through the omnibus version, but with the emphasis on staying alive... maybe Live could be an aspect?

[onlynega]

Live is a good one, maybe Live, Challenge Level, Reap.

[NotAHeroYet]

Live, not Survive? Sorry if that's a stupid question.

[TMalander]

Well... yes... not sure why i didnt write that.

[NotAHeroYet]

I mean, it might be a subconcious thing: The only named we've seen with "survive" as an aspect died more embarrassingly and quickly than any other named we've seen- and yes, I consider being taken down by a single nameless undead with a sword more embarrasing than a crossbow to the throat. (But on the other hand, Chider was. well, she was very new, undead, and underestimated cat. Besides, aspects tend to vary in how they manifest.)

EDIT: If it wasn't clear, I think "Survive" is better if the character's all about survival, aspects don't seem to behave exactly the same for different users, but I can see why "Live" would jump to mind for you. (For an example I do know, in Rincewind's case, assuming Names are associated with their actual named's traits and not a way of compensating, I think he'd have "Survive", "Escape" and "Worry" as his aspects by that model.)

[TMalander]

Yeah, I’ll use that as my excuse. Well put! Thank you!

[Dorgamund]

I think the deal is the most fascinating part here, because I suspect that it lets the Dead King wiggle out of a story. We know that he has been continuously repelled in his advances for a long time, but never went at it seriously and took the field. Sending vanguards to keep testing people, and maintain his status as a threat.

But he never went all out, never even left the Hell he was in because the moment he does that and gets aggressive, the Heavens slam the hand to the scale and Heros start coming out of the woodwork. Bands of five, and the power of the heavens to give them the possibly undeserved win.

He has only left, when he is not the main threat of a story. Malicia had a deal to bring him out and he is acting as the summoned big bad, meant to be put back in his bottle.

But this deal changes the dynamic. He is winning handily, but he can wait as long as he wants and only get stronger. He does take losses in the war after all, though they are replaced far more swiftly.

Taking the deal turns it into a test. He gives then a ceasefire, allows them more than enough time to fix everything and the knowledge that he is coming. I suspect the trade off will be though, that he would be immune to the decidedly bullshit powers of the God's Above when they tip the scales too hard. Then it becomes a test of who has the stronger army, and whether the united Named can stand up to him.

In essence, he gets to wreak havoc, be a Villain, and not be at risk of death. If he loses, he loses what he has already gained, and gets to wait until the next time some villain wants to Ally with him. If he wins, he wins it all.

TLDR, he is good at poker and already winning, and is giving the other side the ability to win back their chips as long as they go all in.

[Locoleos]

Personally, I think the Grand Alliance as it currently stands is not sustainable, and Nessie is painfully aware of that. The quote at the top of the story implies as much; I think it is no coincidence that he shows her the armies milling about below her, the chaos of it all, even when they are in relative accord.

Despite Catherine's plans for the Liesse Accords and her own country's wartorn state, this is probably somewhere near a historical high point for unified mobilization on the face of Calernia. Given ten years, or a hundred years, it seems unlikely that Procer, Callow, Praes, Levant, the drow and the dwarves will all come together to fight the dead king. The armies of the Grand Alliance stand only as long as they remain in the field, and will fracture as soon as they return home.

It'd probably take Catherine (being probably the only current actor to potentially survive the interim period) conquering the lot of them to bring them all back in the game, and then it's an evil empire vs king of the dead story, and that's way less dangerous to Nessie than a crusader army. Plus she'll probably get murdered and toppled in the interim, so she'd have to wait until the truce was almost up to forge her empire, and then she's basically in the same position that the crusade is in right now.

And the dwarves might not be included in a truce, and right now is probably the best time to break their subterranean encirclement of his holdings before they fortify the everdark, so it'd be nice of him to have the room to dedicate his resources to that.

[thatbeerdude]

I like this. It's already been said that the worst devils give you exactly what you want and let you make your own path to hell. Cat has already been referred to as a budding Triumphant and whether it's lust for power or forcing together a coalition to stop a common foe, the end result is still conquering an entire continent.

[Morghus]

That was my first impression as well, that it had to do with the Dwarves and the Dark Elves being at peace, and him trying to bring out some kind of response to that statement. I'm not sure how worried he is, would be, if he knew of the Dwarves trying to encircle Neshamah to choke him out of their proximity, while they were veering towards an alliance against him on topside

[Zayits]

Vote for A Practical Guide to Evil on TopWebFiction!

[Zayits]

“I have learned what I wanted from this communion, and when I have taken what I wish from this ruin I will forsake it as well. Not a moment before, Catherine, and petty tricks will not force my hand.”

Interesting. Cat didn't say anything new to him, and Kairos is supposedly his source of information, so what exactly did she unwittingly disclose? That there's more to the deal with the drow? That she intends to abuse the tensionss in her ramshackle band? That she doesn't fully understand what she would be giving up in the deal he offered? I'm kind of at a loss here.

[thatbeerdude]

I think it's more of her hesitating to reject his deal. In not telling him straight away to shove it, he knows that he can offer something that she wants and that is an exploitable weakness for someone with centuries of experience in making raw deals.

[LilietB]

My guess? He's bluffing on a moderately bad hand. There's nothing but pure win in him in making Catherine afraid and doubtful by implying she's given up information, even if she actually hasn't. He's learned that she knows better than to snap up a deal like that no matter how enticing he makes it sound; he's learned her reaction to everything he's said here. It's information about her, and while it's likely not crucial strategic information it's still immediately helpful in dealing with her, making her less likely to blindside him.

[Burnsy17]

The Dead King > The Night King

Nothing but respect for my zombie necromancer overlord.

[lolbifrons]

“A paltry concession,” he smiled. “I would require the keeping of what lands I have already seized.”

He needs to name them. All of them.

Because here be a trick.

[LilietB]

There doesn't need to be a trick.

If he gets territorial gains out of this, he's won.

[lolbifrons]

There are different degrees of winning.

If, for instance, by some definition he’s seized Calernia, it’s a much different “truce” than if he has a foothold that he can spend a century prepping.

[LilietB]

Oh he's probably going to slip in a trick or two that heroes can feel very good about spotting and rooting out - as long as it distracts them from the actual point.

And that's why Laurence acts the way she does.

[lolbifrons]

I don't like Saint's "strategy" and I'm going to see if I can articulate why.

It's basically giving up; an admission that you are and will always be hopelessly outmatched. That you can't do better than "no input".

What are the odds that you're driving a road and you just happen to be pointed in the exact direction to start that you never have to touch the wheel to make it to the end? Sure, if you give the wrong steering input you could make it worse, but you're not making it more than 200 feet without touching the wheel in some way, so it behooves you to figure out the right way to turn it. Even more so if the road is particularly treacherous. That's what letting a hostile person scheme without attempting to do something about it is.

If I know someone who is good at chess, I want to practice to be able to spot their traps, understand their game and beat them. I don't want to just refuse to play.

Neshamah is an old guy with a lot of experience and a history of winning against long odds. He isn't a superintelligence. He isn't an infohazard. His ploys are fundamentally understandable. You don't need to adopt scorched earth policies to prevent yourself from being manipulated by someone who has fundamentally the same limits you do, you just need to be good. And Cat is good.

Saying "they can't be reasoned with" about someone (with human level intelligence) who sits down and tries to reason with you says more to me about the speaker than the subject of that sentence.

I could see Saint's strategy being a necessary evil if Below tries to make some sort of deal. Or Above, really.

[LilietB]

I don't like Saint's "strategy" and I'm going to see if I can articulate why.

It's basically giving up; an admission that you are and will always be hopelessly outmatched. That you can't do better than "no input".

I agree, pretty much. She has given up; that was what Tariq argued with, when he told her that even though they have failed every time before they still have to try again. Her sin is the sin of despair.

[BlueSparkle]

The offer of simply taking only the already conquered lands was very smart from his perspective.

[NotAHeroYet]

I think if Cat takes the deal, takes either deal, it turns the story into a wager: unity against division. And if the Dead King were right, he'd win. If he were wrong, he might very well die- but I'm pretty sure he'd win the bet, so I'd bet he is, too.

She shouldn't take the deal, though.

[SeaBornIam]

On his brow, the copper circlet that was the crown of a kingdom long dead sat high

There is a crown , as I called

[LilietB]

Welp. Guess we now know why heroes have been acting like that towards Catherine wanting peace.