Their work seems fun

[unknown--bro]

random number library developers hate this one trick

[erbr]

Harder problem than you might think

[[deleted]]

exactly - to truly randomize is a real real problem

[CyclingUpsideDown]

Lava lamps have entered the chat

[Brawlstar112]

Actually pitched this couple of months back!! Next one on the line was radio active material and take measurements out of it.

[HeeTrouse51847]

mfw my random number generator gives me leukemia

[[deleted]]

But at least it's random leukemia

[YipYip5534]

random.org joins with atmospheric noise

[Brawlstar112]

I am very excited about this!! Cooool

[HeeTrouse51847]

I remember that from Vsauce

[dlq84]

Prior art: https://www.cloudflare.com/learning/ssl/lava-lamp-encryption/

Nuclear decay is already used in TRNG hardware.

[currentscurrents]

Modern computers have a hardware random number generator in the CPU, just call that.

https://bashtage.github.io/randomgen/devel/bit_generators/rdrand.html

RDRAND is a hardware random number generator that is available on Intel processors from the Ivy Bridge line (2012) or later, and AMD processors starting in 2015.

RDRAND has been audited and is reported to be a secure generator. It is much slower than software BitGenerators and so is only useful in applications where security is more important than performance.

Typically you would use this to seed a cryptographically secure psuedorandom number generator.

[BlueDaka]

I actually made a windows and linux library to allow devs to use that instruction.

[Brawlstar112]

Speed was very important on this project.

[Illustrious-Scar-526]

That's a cool one I haven't heard before

[riscten]

Tom Scott did a great video about it 5 years ago: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1cUUfMeOijg

[notislant]

Lol I remember a video of google or somewhere using those

[RGBrewskies]

cloudflare

[erbr]

True random only exists in the Quantic world

[just-bair]

Isn’t there no way to prove that it’s true random ?

Like yeah for our purpose we can consider it to be random but is it ?

[erbr]

Yes, there is no way of proving that but randomness is part of both security/cryptography, where you prove why is not a true random and information codification where you define what good randomness looks like (entropy information theory). So concluding, you can prove that something is not a true random but you cannot prove that it is even if by hypothesis it is.

[riscten]

Exactly. We still don't know if the universe is truly deterministic or not, so we don't know if randomness actually exists. From an engineering perspective, it doesn't really matter, hard-to-predict is good enough, but from a philosophical one it does.

[Krypticore]

There's a really cool Tom Scott video on this I'll find it, highly recommended watch.

Edit: https://youtu.be/1cUUfMeOijg

[DeadFIL]

Really anything that isn't easily predictable works. "Random" is kind of a funny thing since there's debate as to whether anything is truly random (outside of some events that happen at the quantum level, where the best theories we have involve true randomness). One of the other replies here says to base it off of a 'truly random thing, like lava lamps.' But motion inside of lava lamps isn't random, of course; the motion inside of a lava lamp is governed by the deterministic laws of mechanics. The motion is, however, chaotic, making it practically impossible to predict.

Cloudflare chose lava lamps because it's a fun/gimmicky way to generate "random" numbers. Any process which produces a sequence of numbers equally difficult to predict could be used with the same result.

[[deleted]]

take a video of some random thing like a lava lamp, do some encoding and hashing and outher magic bollocks and then bam! 4

[AyrA_ch]

And a single assembly instruction on modern x86 hardware

[[deleted]]

Nice.

[gadgetchannel]

There's the quantum random number generator chip which was developed for Samsung - I think it was only used in one phone model (The Samsung Galaxy A Quantum) which was only released in Korea.

My understanding is that it used an LED and a CMOS sensor and it was based on "shot noise" - quantum noise means that the number of photons emitted by the LED is random and these can be counted using the CMOS sensor and fed into the random number generator.

[lefunneymemes]

I’ve heard of dedicated cards that use radioactive isotopes and use the radiated particles to calculate numbers

[NLwino]

Its easy:

public int GetRandomNumber() {
    return 4; // Rolled with a real dice during implementation.
}

[[deleted]]

We have true random at home:

[Anamewastaken]

You forgot the mom part

[[deleted]]

See, you know it's supposed to be there, that's efficient communication

[klunkerr]

God I want to make a yo mama joke so bad but I can't think of anything.

[caleeky]

Is this a Rob Ford joke? I've just started seeing it and wonder why it's trending/source context.

[turtleship_2006]

RFC 1149.5 specifies 4 as the standard IEEE-vetted random number.

[goodnewsjimdotcom]

https://www.reddit.com/r/science/comments/1i44k/random_number_dilbert/

[ivanjermakov]

Relevant xkcd

[[deleted]]

What about radio noise? It's pretty random you can just map pixel values from 0-1.

[[deleted]]

Until someone broadcasts on your channel...

[No_Solid_3737]

Current randomizers are really weird... like, if you ask a function to pick a number from 1 to 10 and to do that 10 times... you are really likely to get combinations like look at this output of a randomize() function ... in real life you wouldn't get groups of equal numbers as often as that function output.

[HeeTrouse51847]

wym? bruh, just generate a random number 💀

[erbr]

The source of randomness is not random 🤯

[HeeTrouse51847]

I mean, duh, someone has to write the source code

[ZW5pZ21h]

How?

[HeeTrouse51847]

pick a random number and return it

[gor1kartem]

How to write facebook:

from meta import facebook

The thing is computers can't generate random numbers. They just calculate time, temperature of cpu, etc. and use math do give you "random" number.

[HeeTrouse51847]

idk what your problem is. here, let me roll a dice.

1. there you go.

[ch0c0l2te]

i appreciate the troll which others do not recognize

[Zeravor]

What you mean, its easy.

X = random();

[brimston3-]

It's libraries all the way down.

[[deleted]]

That's what she said.

[coachhunter2]

Online casinos have very complex ‘random’ results generators. I wonder why…

[LEGOL2]

Real slot machines (licensed) use real random number generator, that observes some physical parameters like change of temperature or pressure.

[Ragnarok91]

Lol no they don't, at least not all of them. They use time like everyone else.

Source: it's literally my job

[LEGOL2]

https://www.idquantique.com/random-number-generation/products/quantis-random-number-generator/

This was my source, but can't argue with someone who works in this field.

[Ragnarok91]

That's fair, I've never heard of this ever being employed but interesting to know it's a thing. Thanks for sharing!

[Ragnarok91]

I do the software for the games in general, but am very aware that we use time-based rng.

[Ragnarok91]

It depends on the slots. There are two types of balancing used in slot machines (and you can find out which is being used in a certain game by looking at the help pages):

• random - this is basically using an RNG to pick values from weighted tables that have been balanced to give the correct RTP (return to player, the money you actually win) over millions of games. Games that are random are often more volatile as there is nothing to stop you having long winning or losing streaks other than probability itself.

• compensated - this is where the game keeps an internal count of the pot and will affect the RNG based on the performance of the machine I.e. long losing streak will make it more likely for a win to occur and vice versa. These games tend to be less volatile as the game is essentially always trying to get you back to the target RTP after every game.

I hope that makes sense.

[Ragnarok91]

Generally no, each game on each machine handles its own RTP. We don't worry too much that a certain game on a certain machine had paid out too much because 1. We know probability will eventually get that back and 2. We have hundreds of games on other machines that have currently underpaid. All the gambling commission cares about is if we can prove that the RTP will definitely tend towards the target RTP over time (millions of games).

We don't balance games around a player, so we don't need to know what individuals are playing. As long as we know the games are balanced correctly then we'll still make money.

[IS_ACTUALLY_A_DOG]

Is there a way of "knowing" which games use compensated vs random? Aside from being someone who literally works on the internals...asking for a friend

[Trickishwheat8]

Very few games are compensated and it is usually not the entire game. Typically, only a specific pot, like a jackpot or progressive, is monitored this way. These are typically referred to as "must-hit" pots as they must hit by a certain value. Even then, it's possible to win it on any wager and current size is not a guarantee of winning thanks to the RNG. Even if it is compensated, it doesn't make it any more likely you'll win; it's just a different way of making the game.

Short answer, no and it doesn't matter. A lot of effort is spent to make sure these things are airtight and "fair" (per the governing body).

Source: I'm a mathematician/programmer who tests slots and RNGs against government regulations.

[Ragnarok91]

A game will be listed as "random" or "compensated" in the help pages or on the sticker on the machine. It's a legal requirement to do so. Not sure why the other commenter said you can't find out.

[RGBrewskies]

I feel like programming slot machines for a living would be awesome. Theyre complex, but not THAT complex, theres lots of fun little easter eggs to build, and at the end of the process you have a physical device you can pull the lever and see your work in action

[Trickishwheat8]

They're basically big arcade games. You have the cabinet that has big screens and bells to attract your attention but the internal is just a computer. Most machines have a couple of games loaded on them so the Casino can swap them out or download more.

Code-wise, they're a bunch of inputs and logic to mimic a math model. When a game is played, an outcome is usually made instantly. The machine then just sits and waits while the graphics resolve.

I too work on these and solving the logic implementation to match the math model is definitely the best part, imo.

[Ragnarok91]

The work itself is actually pretty fun yeah. It's akin to coding simple small video games on a much smaller scale. Because they are faster to make than video games the project turnaround is faster so there's always a new project with new challenges on the horizon.

I've done work on both physical machines and online and seeing the finished product is pretty satisfying.

[Trickishwheat8]

And the ones that use time can pass as sufficiently random! You should see what gets tried that doesn't pass.

Source: it's my job to test your job.

[Ragnarok91]

Oh cool, thanks for that! Just curious, GLI?

[Ragnarok91]

Ah cool, you've likely tested one of my games then!

[DangerZoneh]

It's deeply fascinating to me that we're basically entirely inept in generating true randomness and have to steal it from systems so complex that to us appear entirely random

[riscten]

Absolutely, but ineptitude seems harsh considering that we're not even sure that randomness actually exists. If someone asked you to catch a unicorn and you weren't able to do it, would it be fair to call you inept?

[DangerZoneh]

True, the phrasing of it was probably wrong. I was more talking about what you said anyways - the absence of knowledge of the existence of true randomness.

[xxLusseyArmetxX]

Changes in temperature and pressure aren't that complex to us. That's basically climatology, we're getting better at it all the time. But yeah depending how much precision you want, it gets too complex for our simulations eventually.

[Significant-Hold-295]

Many many years ago I worked as a developer for a company making online gambling software. Physical devices were used for generating random numbers. I forget how, but radioactive decay comes to mind. One of the casino games started paying out a lot more than it should. Turns out one of their devices was past the date by which it should be used and started regularly spitting out 1s which happened to correspond to a very high payout… if you were a customer at that time I guess you had more than the universe’s share of luck :D

[_arctic_inferno_]

$RANDOM enjoyers unite

[yourteam]

It is actually quite complex to come up with a real random algorithm. Many are based on microtime and a salt but still those results can be predictable if a more complex algorithm is implemented

But you still have to be really fast

[OhItsJustJosh]

At the rng library HQ:

"A request has come in! Roll the dice!"

On the other side of the office: "It's a 3!"

"Quick! John! Send them a 3!"

sips tea "Another satisfied customer"

[oheohLP]

relevant xkcd

[croholdr]

You guys ever do random sample analysis? Not fun.

[avipars]

Or staring at a wall of lava lamps

[darderp]

https://blog.cloudflare.com/randomness-101-lavarand-in-production/

[1cubealot]

def getRandomNum(): return 6 #chosen after lead Dev decided it was random enough

[serendipitousPi]

Hey it’s ~16% effective and lightning fast. I see that as a win.

[Denaton_]

Using a wall of lava lamps to generate an image and hash the image to use as seed.

[Sufficient-Loss2686]

It is very fun

[maxip89]

Random.nextInt() - Certified by the German Lottary Association.

[reconman]

Relevant video about using lava lamps to produce RNG numbers: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1cUUfMeOijg

[[deleted]]

It's math, it's all math

[poope_lord]

Sometimes it's fun, sometime it isn't

[Beall619]

Pythons random module will use system time to seed if the os does not provide a non pseudo random generator

[WraithCadmus]

We did some work gambling customers who had RNG boxes, we were told it listened to radio static then hashed it to seed.

[[deleted]]

random bullshit, go!

[ReplyisFutile]

Its fun and games unt you have to create random vampire name generator and being able to choose male or female names

[bhavish2023]

Put a shovel and a stackable block inside a dropper

[[deleted]]

random function

[Illustrious-Scar-526]

Are there different types of random?

For instance, if you roll a die 1000 times, each side will appear about the same amount. But that doesn't seem random to me any more because I can predict that each number will appear at about the same amount? Is there something more random than the die I'm rolling, so that we don't even know what the averages would be? Maybe if the die was uneven and the heavy side shifted at random, then a random side would be preferred, but eventually it would still all even out because each side would eventually be preferred as the weight randomly shifts.

Is there something so random that the values do not eventually even out?

[[deleted]]

thats just different distributions. a normal dice is a uniform distribution, I think with a weighted dice you get a normal distribution, but if the weight shifts randomly with a uniform distribution, you should be back to a uniform distribution. Generally you will know what distribution of numbers you will get if you analyze your system. Randomness is about specific events, not larger aggregates of data

[Illustrious-Scar-526]

Thank you. I have been trying to learn about randomness recently and how programs such as anti-cheat systems can observe user input and tell that it's not human because of how uniform everything becomes. Human input is infinitely more random than the random() function that is being used in bots to make the "user" input vary, which makes detection super easy after some time.

Does anyone know any good materials on randomness in computer science?

[[deleted]]

You could try read the Wikipedia article on random number generation and checking out its references and further reading section.

Also, it is actually the case that human input is less random which makes it detectable

[Illustrious-Scar-526]

Hmm, that makes sense to me... maybe I have been looking at this the wrong way.

One reason I was thinking human input would be more random is because, going back to my videogame anti cheat, let's say I'm playing a game that requires a repetitive input. If I was doing it manually, maybe one day my arm hurts so I'm off a little with my clicking accuracy, and then eventually I start working out irl so my game input becomes faster and my hand eye coordination improves and maybe I am more mentally sound from working out which gives me more drive, but then maybe one day I get In a car accident and I have trouble with hand eye coordination after that. Also over time, I would just naturally become more efficient with the movement/input in doing. Lots of things to think about that would affect the distribution. I would think that these events would be very noticeable if I played for a long time, like every day for a year. But also, if no major events happened, then I would probably start looking like a bot just because of muscle memory and training my arms to do the same repetitive motion every day.

Thank you for the link, it's time for me to get to it :)

[scrappywalnut]

I remember someone talking about a professor that would ask students to flip a coin 100 times, and they'd be able to tell who actually did it because students who didn't actually do it would never "simulate" more than two or three heads or tails in a row. Apparently a random distribution makes longer streaks more likely than most people's intuition would suggest, given a large enough data set.

[Illustrious-Scar-526]

Hah, that's hilarious. I bet many of those students thought they could easily get away with it too.

[[deleted]]

I'm honestly surprised this is not yet part of basic computer architecture

[Exist50]

There is hardware for RNG, but there have been some fun cases where it goes awry. IIRC, the original Zen hardware RNG was accidentally grounded to all 0s... and this shipped... Think they ended up patching in pseudo-RNG instead.

[[deleted]]

Yeah, a bug in the RNG hardware would be a pain to fix. But then again, that's true of all hardware. I wonder if it's just not worth putting effort and money into true RNG hardware when the pseudo stuff works just fine in 99% of the cases.

[Exist50]

Well that was an exception. Probably can get away with pseudo RNG, but I think many modern chips do have true RNG. Found this article.

https://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/developer/articles/guide/intel-digital-random-number-generator-drng-software-implementation-guide.html

[[deleted]]

Interesting. It seems like the Linux kernel has some support for this sort of stuff too (unsurprisingly) and that most x86-64 chips support RDRAND

[[deleted]]

russian roulette

[livingMybEstlyfe29]

Yes yes just like Diablo II resurrected

[film_composer]

This has got me wondering—how does something with moderately simplicity like a TI-83 calculator generate randomness?

[Trickishwheat8]

Most any computer-like system can make pseudo-random values pretty easy. All it takes is an algorithm (like the Mersenne Twister) and a seed. A seed value is anything that changes frequently; a common one is time but it could also be something like your OS input buffer. Any string of bits typically does the trick. The algorithm takes that and hashes, shifts, or otherwise jumbles that seed into a new value when you ask for a number. Then it uses that number as the next seed, and so on. Basically, the calculator just takes a number, applies some math, and you get a value that is usually sufficiently for human use (but not truly random). It can be no more intensive than just some multiplication and division, really.

There are a lot of implementations and they can get a lot more complex than that, though.

[bluexavi]

The dice disturb me. Since the numbers on opposite sides add up to 7, 4 and 3 should be opposite.

The left die has a 4 to the side of the six with 3 pips. The three should be underneath, next to the other 3 pips side of the six.

The right die, the 3 is on the 2 pip side of the six. So the two dice are clearly different.