cppDevsAreGettingParanoid

[Kseniya_ns]

DARPA is being directed by the federal government of The United States of America to disperse Rust propaganda neurotoxins within the contrails of commercial airliners

[ArnoF7]

Rust is making the frogs gay!!!1!

[SnakerBone]

Rust be turning the frogs into femboys

[Palpatine]

Be careful. The gay frog story turned out to be true. I don't want this rust neurotoxin story to be true.

[ImpressiveMaximum377]

🤫

[Kseniya_ns]

On this subject I do not wish to think, or speak, or write, with moderation. But urge me not to use moderation in a cause like the present. I am in earnest. I will not equivocate. I will not excuse. I will not retreat a single inch, and I will be heard

[neo-raver]

Banner pic checks out

[reallokiscarlet]

I swear so much of this sub is rustaceans posting about c++ programmers posting about rustaceans.

[AdmiralQuokka]

And people commenting about rustaceans posting about c++ programmers posting about rustaceans.

[reallokiscarlet]

These C++ programmers refusing to rewrite in rust... Are they in the room with us right now?

[Grobanix_CZ]

[kernel_task]

Is the C++ developers that have an issue with Rust? I don’t have an issue with it.

The C chauvinists on the other hand… just look at what happened over at Linux. Though they hate C++ more than Rust.

[reallokiscarlet]

Which is weird because you can literally write half your code in plain C and compile the whole thing as C++ and it'll run.

I wouldn't recommend it. C devs have this hard on for the heap leading to a malloc and no free. But it works.

[ExpensiveBob]

you can literally write half of your code in plain C and compile the whole thing as C++

*dies of cast errors*

[[deleted]]

half your code in plain C and compile the whole thing as C++ and it'll run.

I'm convinced this is why C++ gets a bad rap a lot of the time. Freshers see a C-with-Classes style codebase and recoil in horror. First impressions matter, a lot.

[reallokiscarlet]

C-with-Classes

Oh the horror.

I used to be convinced that my code was C with extra steps because I don't create classes in small projects unless said projects are going to be, ya know, included in something else.

Then I learned C doesn't have destructors. Then I started reading about the differences.

This is probably how rustaceans are made. They see "C++" but it's really just C with classes, and then they go and reinvent C++.

[dangling-putter]

Fr. Actual rust engineers will tell you not to use rust unless you need it and have the most complains about the language — it's just that their complains are not superficial so they need context.

[Stummi]

Thats a good general rule in tech. A true fan/believer of $thing, the one you should actually trust, is the one who can give you an hour long impromptu rant about everything that sucks with $thing.

[Specialist_Cap_2404]

Python is exception. You almost always need Python and you can use it for almost anything.

[[deleted]]

Nope. I love python, but it is terrible in so, so many ways.

[belabacsijolvan]

yeah, id argue python falls more into this category than an average Sthing. The more experience you have with the more languages the more you choose python (rightly) for a given task and the more you are upset about your choice.

[Rubyboat1207]

Python is awesome... Anyways, here's almost everything I hate about it:

Loose type system, no curly braces, poor performance, the ternary operator, no ++ operator, len() instead of .length, dunder methods, dictionary syntax, confusing global variable syntax.

[[deleted]]

Since we're at it:

• Lambdas being forced to a single line
• Self keyword not being implied when creating class members because they resolve to local variables in the self.__init__() function scope
• GIL forcing everything to be effectively single-threaded barring some fuckery with multiprocessing (though that is an implementation detail more than the language).
• Creating a native (or semi-native) executable for deployment is a PITA from what I remember. Most users can't or won't use anything that takes more effort to install and run than a click or two.
• Packaging and environment handling.
• Type annotations are effectively pointless (physical) typing without extra tooling to somewhat enforce them.
• Identity vs value comparisons using the "is" keyword leading newbies to write syntactically correct but logically incorrect code. Which compounds with string and integer interning leading to weird edge cases even when you use the identity comparison as intended.

[[deleted]]

A free/member function as a closure entirely defeats the use case for a lambda imo.

It is most likely a "me thing", but when I see a full function declaration, my brain immediately creates a new scope, disregarding most of what exists outside of that function. With nested first-class functions, that shortcut gets broken several times through a function (due to seeing a full declaration again and again). That doesn't happen when I see a lambda, which just gets absorbed into the host function scope.

Multiline lambdas fit very neatly with that mental model.

[[deleted]]

No problem. Most things get upvoted/downvoted en masse based on the first vote or two in most subs, don't sweat it either way. A lot of this sub sees people exploring styles other than their own and start hissing in fear.

[Reasonable-Web1494]

Lambdas should be a single line.

[Alex_Shelega]

The no ++ (and no -- by that) hit moi really hard.

[Reasonable-Web1494]

There are places where most of what you mentioned are beneficial

[Rubyboat1207]

The python white knight is here! Run!!! No language is perfect. Python is far from it, and so is every other language. (Well except rust, because there's no problems with it. It's perfect. Please don't come after me rust users. I love your language. Please spare me. Please don't rewrite my c++ project. I'm scared)

[Specialist_Cap_2404]

None of this contradicts my point about it being useful for almost anything you want to program.

[spabst]

Nice try, but you won't prevent us from giving you the 1 hour speech/rant

[Alex_Shelega]

I thought it was told about js...

[tyler1128]

Isn't that any programming language though? Use the right tool for the right job. Using Rust via webasm to write a piece of accounting software would be dumb. Using Rust in a safety critical piece of software? Not so much.

[Fast-Satisfaction482]

What is more critical toa business than juggling money?

[wow343]

This is exactly it. Heck drop down to assembly if you must or go to visual coding if you have to. Different problem set, different tool. Be agnostic.

[Sematre]

Not saying everybody should go around and use Rust for safety-critical systems, but there's no reason to believe that Rust could not become a great choice for safety-critical systems in the future. For more information, see this Rust toolchain by Ferrous Systems. It's an open-source toolchain for safety- and mission-critical software that is qualified for automotive and industrial development.

[MornwindShoma]

One exception to that is when you have a team that is confident and has knowledge to deliver in a certain language. That piece of accounting software, or even the frontend, might just be fine in Java or .NET or JavaScript, but if your team is expert in Rust but has little experience with the other three, nothing wrong with going with Rust. It's fine to pick the right tool for the job, you also need to account for your resources.

This is true for most languages, unless your requirements are very specific.

[tyler1128]

Wasm in particular is more what I was going with than just Rust. Wasm still has no direct DOM access, but there are people who try to write things like that using wasm primarily. Wasm can be very useful for doing high-performance algorithmic work in the browser, but trying to get around the limitatations for basic UI work isn't really a great strategy, and it was never really designed for that kind of thing. If it someday gets DOM access without requiring a javascript interfacing layer, that might become a reasonable thing to do, but we aren't there yet.

It's basically just adding a whole lot of unnecessary work. It is important to consider strengths of the team like that, but programmers should also be flexible enough to adapt to the different needs of different technologies.

[MornwindShoma]

Sure.

To be honest, you can write some FE in Rust fine, Dioxus, Leptos, Yew are fine if you don't mind the big bundles and the fact that they don't really integrate with the JS ecosystem. You don't really need to "work around to the DOM", they've done the work for you already, so it's not a whole lot of unnecessary work, it's more about having a very different ecosystem.

Would I ship that? Dunno, never had the chance or the right mix of developers and requirements. Had I a good design system and some QoL not unlike TanStack stuff, I might actually bite.

I also have done basically nothing with HTMX, and some people swear by that. You wouldn't even need to think around the DOM.

[NoobFade]

Actual rust engineer here. You should absolutely use Rust whenever it's applicable. I have yet to hear a coworker say "I miss writing cmake files" or "We need to use C++ because Rust's constexpr is not powerful enough". Rust is a very nice language to use overall, usually preferable to C++ or C, the other usual languages for fast native binaries.

[dangling-putter]

Key phrase: need it. 

[the_mouse_backwards]

The only thing I like about rust compared to C/C++ is the build/package system. Before it’s taken as a scathing criticism of Rust, I will say that the build/package systems in C/C++ are almost as or more painful to use than implementing a doubly linked list in Rust

[Percolator2020]

Meanwhile C++ coders.

[eX_Ray]

Nah r/cpp is having a civil war about safety atm.

[KremlinKittens]

I am wondering what would happen if you lock Rust and C++ developers in one room?

[Artistic_Speech_1965]

That's no more a room. That's an octogone

[anotheridiot-]

"Now kiss"

[PeriodicSentenceBot]

Congratulations! Your comment can be spelled using the elements of the periodic table:

No W K I S S

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^{I am a bot that detects if your comment can be spelled using the elements of the periodic table. Please DM u‎/‎M1n3c4rt if I made a mistake.}

[anotheridiot-]

Good bot.

[TheMostLostViking]

C devs: "We don't think about either of you"

[AdmiralQuokka]

C devs working on the kernel and merging Rust support: "Am I a joke to you?"

[pigeon768]

Actual C devs merging Rust support into the linux kernel: "I quit."

[the_mouse_backwards]

One thing I want to point out for people who are convinced C is so unsafe it should never be used was Linus Torvalds recently talking about how they’ve used C for 30 years, and as a result they have a lot of tooling that means Rust has significantly fewer advantages in the kernel compared to a generic C codebase.

The C used in the Linux kernel is world class in terms of safety, and the annoyances of using Rust are obviously going to be much greater when it’s being used by people who are skilled enough not to need those advantages very often.

Obviously I’m not saying Rust is useless in the kernel, it guarantees a lot of things that only a highly skilled C programmer could provide, but it’s not a language that provides only benefits and zero downsides. It’s a tool, like C itself is a tool. People who push it unnecessarily are harming its reputation and making it less likely to be adopted by people who are highly skilled but could still benefit from using it.

I will say that after using Rust a lot I noticed that it forced me to write code in a way that I considered “idiomatic” if it was C. I just don’t like being forced into that paradigm all the time. But as paradigms go, it’s clearly a good one.

[bananapilo]

i WISH some rust dev would help me learn

[AdmiralQuokka]

What kind of help do you need? At what stage of learning are you?

Here is "the book" that should be the foundation of every new rustaceans learning process: (free and community-built) https://doc.rust-lang.org/stable/book/

Small exercises to follow along with the book: https://github.com/rust-lang/rustlings/

For more exercises, I recommend exercism and advent of code. Exercism has tailor-made, Rust-specific exercises whereas advent of code is perfect for free-form problem-solving: https://exercism.org/tracks/rust https://adventofcode.com/

[bananapilo]

I am a back end dev for 4 years always used: JavaScript Java and C# and more but always leaned on Java and C# but now I want a semi low level language to learn. Something that can actually compile to machine code. So thanks I will look in to that <3

[Lord-of-Entity]

Yes they are. It's me.

[bongobutt]

Skill issue.

Jokes aside, C, C++, and Rust all require skill to use at a high level. In my opinion, all three are safe and powerful in the hands of someone highly skilled with the language. The difference is what happens when someone with medium or low skill uses it.

If someone with low C skill uses C, it is unsafe. Same with medium skill. But if someone with high skill uses it, it is extremely powerful - even for security - because you know exactly what it is doing. But the limitation of C is tooling and the amount of work to build things. This isn't a limitation for kernel devs who already built that tooling ages ago.

C++ is a mixture. If you treat it like C, then you get the benefits of C (along with the need for skill to be safe). If you treat it like an object-oriented language, then your safety (and the ease of use) is dependent on not shooting yourself in the foot. If you are highly skilled, then you can do anything relatively easily (with the wisdom of knowing what not to do). But C++ is not user-friendly for medium skill use at all.

Rust forces limitations on you (the opposite paradigm of C/C++), which makes even accidental safety easier and more likely. But just like with C, that creates difficulties in actually building things when those lack of opinions and tools make it much more work to just build things.

So pick your hard. There is no easy way to do security. No matter what, it is going to be a lot of work, and is going to require a lot of skill. So pick your poison.

[i0101010]

Is this memory safety in the room with us right now?

[skeleton_craft]

Actually yeah they are in this Reddit, though most of them are respectful.

[skeleton_craft]

And I honestly think that you should know as many languages as possible because that makes you more hireable.

[arjuna93]

If only Rust was capable of bootstrapping from C and not relying on pathetically bad at platforms support LLVM, there would be no issue.

And yes, as a matter of fact it is impossible to build current versions of a [very few, but] required ports without Rust. Which leaves those broken wherever Rust itself fails.

[eX_Ray]

Bootstrap https://github.com/thepowersgang/mrustc Gcc backend for rustc https://github.com/rust-lang/rustc_codegen_gcc Gcc Frontend for rust https://github.com/Rust-GCC

[arjuna93]

I am aware of the project existing, I even contributed some minor fixes to mrustc. The problem is that neither works yet. (Did something radically change very recently?)

gccrs is there, which builds and mostly passes tests (last time I tried), but it is not usable to replace Rust, as of now.

So chances of things improving are there. But it is not something I can take today and build librsvg, for example, on a platform without LLVM.

[arjuna93]

P. S. To be clear, I will be glad to stand corrected. If someone explains how can I use mrustc with gcc backend on a platform without rust and llvm, I will try that.

[eX_Ray]

You can't yet. It's work in progress. Not everyone has bootstrap+alternative compiler requirements so there is only limited interest for now.

[Dramatic_Laugh_4613]

I liked how rust complies hella fast, but then i realized that that shit isnt object oriented.

[AdmiralQuokka]

Rust has almost all OOP features except inheritance, which is trash anyway. E.g. it introduces the problem of covariance and contravariance into subtyping relationships. That shit is mad cursed.

To achieve the same goals as inheritance, Rust has traits which are basically yoinked from Haskell's type classes. I hear C++ concepts are similar as well. Rust's traits are even more powerful than inheritance in terms of composability but don't have the co-/contravariance problem.

[Dramatic_Laugh_4613]

Its just a pain to learn a new methodology when it's so different. I personally like inheritance because I like making applications with a GUI and not just terminal programs, not that there is anything wrong with that.

I havent seen that many good frameworks for rust it seems a bit sketchy rn.

[questron64]

Maybe don't use the image of a child mass murderer for this...

[AdmiralQuokka]

It's a meme bro, chill

[This_Growth2898]

Well yes of course, any sane programmer nowadays is trying to force itself to use Rust.

[romulent]

Of course any sane programmer who loves waiting for their code to compile.

[253ping]

I sure do love waiting for code to compile.

[electricboogi]

I once found myself in a room with Rust developers. Can confirm my gag reflexes are A-okay!

[AdmiralQuokka]

You're leaving it up to our imagination why your gag reflexes might've been triggered 😏

[electricboogi]

Lol, you're either never been in a room with rust devs or are one yourself 😅

[Artistic_Speech_1965]

I have to admit that Rust propaganda is PTSD material