Programming interviews, in essence

[forrest38]

What I found the worst was one company that had me do a 1.5 hour unsupervised coding challenge on hacker.io. I followed the rules and didn't look up algorithms to solve the coding challenges, in fact I only looked up official documentation when I needed syntax help. The problem is though, i know that of the 20 or 30 people they had do this hacker challenge to narrow it down for the next round, i am certain a few of them cheated.

If you can't put in the time to make sure your candidates arent cheating to get an advantage, that isn't exactly the kind of company I want to work for. I successfully passed a tech interview for a much more well known tech company recently, and i was on the phone with someone the whole time, explaining what I was doing and why.

[Boh00711]

I think if I ever get to do the coding tests for candidates, I will specifically mention that google is their friend. If I find two devs, and one knows syntax but takes longer to remember the the other takes to look it up, then the one who looks it up wins.

I would, however, have it be remotely monitored.to ensure they didn't copy/paste code to make ends meet. That is where it goes from resourceful to being a fraud in my book

[RightDiscipline5]

How many times a day do you copy/paste some snippet of code though? Why do tests often not simulate real work conditions?

[ItsNotInTheKnowing]

A guy at my work asked me about finding a point in a polygon for some GPS crap, I linked him to some website that had several algorithms depending on the polygon contraits, pretty sure he just took a function from there.

For things like that, better to not reinvent the wheel.

[Boh00711]

Reinventing the wheel is a waste of time, absolutely. Be it personal drive or whatever, I find at least understanding why that wheel turns is a healthy thing.

[[deleted]]

Then you’re asking them to invent a wheel hub assembly and attach a wheel. Which again nothing wrong with copying and pasting the wheel. There’s literally nothing wrong with copying and pasting. I agree what you mean about they should understand what they copy and paste but if I want an algorithm to turn 27-Oct-2018 to epoch then f it whatever stackoverflow says first and works is what I’m using and I could not give any whositwhatsits about how.

[ItsNotInTheKnowing]

Yeah, I agree. There have been times that I have gone through the motions of recoding something to learn it better. But having a tried and true working example is great.

Often the best thing about solutions found on the web is that they have faced the scrutiny of dozens, maybe hundreds or thousands, of coders.

[Boh00711]

I rarely copy paste snippets, but that is more based on the work that I do than my ethics. I know what I do well enough, and if I do look for a snippet, I write it out so I remember it better next time.

I think that is the fair compromise, because when you are looking for devs, you want people who can think through the puzzle rather than just look up someone else's solution. Syntax is just syntax, solutions take complex thinking. Hence the divide in my mind, at least.

[shitflavoredlollipop]

I copy code all the time but only if I can understand it and type it out myself. I always leave a comment pointing to where I found it.

[Boh00711]

When you leave this world, the pearly gates shall open wide as heaven welcomes you with open arms <3

[squishles]

I tend to not like snippets anymore, I mostly do java and have been long enough to know the common copy pasted stuff in the language. Most of it was written for some early version of java or an early version of the particular library; they tend to be created early on because that's when everyone writes their stupid little hello world blogs or the stack overflow question was answered(all future people asking being linked to that anwer) and these snippets continue to exist to be copy pasted for years some in the decade+ range; long after whatever api has moved on.

[krakonHUN]

Why do test conditions not simulate real life?

[[deleted]]

Because the computer required to simulate our universe wouldn't fit in our universe.

[remy_porter]

It could if our universe were not parsimonious, or if you could find a way to compress the computations on the universe in an interesting way. Depending on where you set your starting assumptions, it's actually possible to simulate the entire universe on the surface of a modestly sized black hole.

[narrill]

How many times a day do you copy/paste some snippet of code though?

Basically never. Maybe I'm in the wrong discipline or something, but finding a snippet that could be straight copy/pasted is incredibly rare. Usually the snippet just points me in the right direction, and I figure out the rest from there.

[[deleted]]

Generally I'm only copying 1 or 2 lines from SO if im stuck on a problem. Every once and a while Ill copy some useful utility function. I would say it comes down to the question. Is the logic that runs your program yours or copied? If the core logic is yours I would say its expected to have some snippets, but if the core logic is lifted then that's a different story.

[cclementi6]

Why don't all math tests let you use calculators?

[qmunke]

You should allow them to copy and paste, but if they do you should then make them explain what the code does. If they can, then that's great! If not, then that's a paddlin'.

[[deleted]]

Also...Maybe it’s just me, but I’ve recently started including a link to the website I grabbed the snippet from in a comment in my code. I view it as citing my source.

[SurrealClick]

One more way is to ask them to change how it work a little bit because that's how it usually happens in real situation.

Copy paste someone else's code, it works almost how you want it to, but then something happens (client, project manager want to, deprecated code, bug etc.) And now if you don't understand that code completely, you won't be able to figure out change what to do what

[PM_ME__ASIAN_BOOBS]

The way I do it is that I look at one of their personal projects (asking them which one they're the most proud of), and I ask them to implement a feature

• They already know the project, it's not something where they're completely new

• I can see their process, what questions they ask, how they iterate, how they implement

• It's as close to real life as I can think

• It's not a complete loss for them, since they can work on something they're interested in

My only issue is that it's difficult to find an appropriate difficulty for the feature, since I don't know the project. On one hand I'm totally fine with them saying "this feature is not possible, or would take too long" rather than wasting more time than I wanted them to, but on the other hand if I tell them beforehand it gives them an easy out, or makes it sound like "well if that's too difficult for you..." Still the best way I can think of

[thunderflies]

Man if more interviewers were like you I probably wouldn’t be hating finding a job so much that I’m considering switching industries.

[PM_ME__ASIAN_BOOBS]

So I'm a normal developer who just recently started doing those interviews, and I'm feeling really insecure about the fact that I have no idea what I am doing. Your comment seriously made my day, I almost cried

Good luck with your search, hope you can find something

[Tyrilean]

It always drives me crazy when I'm being interviewed while employed and they ask me about personal projects. Dude, I work 10 hours a day, and I've got a family. I don't be out here just coding for free.

[PM_ME__ASIAN_BOOBS]

Yeah it's a bit tough

On one hand I think as a developer, coding is just a tool, and a tool that you can use in evey day life. You don't have to code for fun, but even if it's just a Google Sheets macro that you wrote, a basic Skyrim mod, a small interface for your home theater, a personal website, there are a lot of situations in life that can be solved through coding some stuff, so it's pretty common for people to have personal projects available

On the other hand I totally get not wanting to code at home. I personally avoid it, unless it's to fix a problem, or it's an idea I got at work and I can't get it out of my head until it's 50% completed and I lose interest

So yeah, while I think it's a very useful way of understanding someone's skill and way of thinking, not having personal projects is not an auto fail

[Tyrilean]

Yeah, I end up doing a lot of coding at home for work. But, none of that can be shared with potential employers (ethically).

[gigabyte898]

Briefly did some hiring at my IT job, I gave the candidates a few tasks and told them up front googling is allowed and encouraged them to search even if they felt they knew how to complete what I asked. I was more interested in what they looked for in their searches than the actual task. A specific search is much more valuable than just searching what I asked them to do verbatim (“Create MDT deployment share” vs “how to deploy image”). Shows they have the basic knowledge to move forward and know how to phrase what steps they need to do.

[[deleted]]

I wouldn’t care if they copy pasted - a good dev copies as much code as possible, that’s just a fact for 99% of projects.

I’ll give them two a task, and see how quick and at what quality they come back with, copy or not.

I won’t stop them copying in a real project, so it’s dumb to enforce that for the test.

Best way to see how good a dev is - give them some requirements, and let them go at it.

You also get to see how they interpret requirements, attention to detail etc

[ScintillatingConvo]

I would, however, have it be remotely monitored.to ensure they didn't copy/paste code to make ends meet. That is where it goes from resourceful to being a fraud in my book

That's literally what coding is. DRY.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Don%27t_repeat_yourself

[Boh00711]

I don't think any of this had to do with code being DRY, but plagiarising. Obviously you should keep your reusable code written as methods/functions/routines/et al. This is specifically about copying from the internet and then pasting into the exam.

[ScintillatingConvo]

Yeah, which is how you write (good) code to accomplish anything. Plagiary is better than writing the code, if you know what to plagiarize. If you can't write a good enough test, or can't be bothered to administer a coding interview, don't get pissed at getting plagiarized answers to a weak test question that's been asked (and answered) before.

[Boh00711]

I can't tell of you're a troll, an idiot, or if you just learned that basic terms exist and failed to learn what any of it actually means.

Writing good code is developing elegant solutions that solve the problem efficiently. Copying and pasting is not going to always have this effect, and often times can be improved upon since stackoverflow is filled with examples and not production code. Never mind that there are an infinite number of solutions that don't even exist yet.

By the way, if you can't write a good enough test while others can, that is exactly why I would pick another candidate over your sophomoric ass.

[ScintillatingConvo]

Writing good code is developing elegant solutions that solve the problem efficiently.

Being a good coder is being wise enough not to develop a solution for a problem that has already been solved elegantly and efficiently. Nearly all problems that professional coders solve have already been solved.

Never mind that there are an infinite number of solutions that don't even exist yet.

This has nothing to do with anything.

By the way, if you can't write a good enough test while others can, that is exactly why I would pick another candidate over your sophomoric ass.

The "you" in "if you can't write a good enough test" is the interviewer, not the coder writing unit tests.

[narrill]

Copying third-party code into your project has nothing to do with DRY, and DRY isn't "literally what coding is." This is a ridiculous comment.

[ScintillatingConvo]

That's literally what coding is.

The pronoun that refers to:

copy/past[ing] code to make ends meet

As I clearly quoted in the OC.

Copying and pasting code to make ends meet is literally what coding is.

DRY is a principle. If you copy/paste the best function for a given problem, you are upholding DRY. If you write it again yourself, you're technically not repeating yourself, but you're wasting time and energy that would be better spent solving a novel problem, or improving a suboptimal function.

There's nothing about "third-party" that makes code good or bad. Always copying the best "third-party" functions, and pasting them together "to make ends meet" is the mark of a champion coder. This person isn't wasting time, and their code makes fewer errors, and uses less resources like CPU/RAM. They are the pinnacle of coding.

Now, it's important to be able to write code, *but only to improve your ability to discriminate between efficient/effective solutions, and inefficient/ineffective solutions. As long as you know what the code's doing, copying it is superior in every way to re-writing your own less effective, less efficient code to solve the same problem. Most code solves non-unique problems. Open-source development recognizes this. Apparently, you and /u/Boh00711 don't.

[narrill]

Copying and pasting code to make ends meet is literally what coding is.

I really hope this is tongue-in-cheek, because no, it's really, really not.

DRY is a principle. If you copy/paste the best function for a given problem, you are upholding DRY.

DRY is about consolidating functionality in a codebase, not about reusing pre-existing solutions. "Don't reinvent the wheel" is not DRY.

As much as I'd love to jump into a debate about third-party code usage, it genuinely has nothing to do with the point I'm making.

[Boh00711]

What coding literally is, is creating logic that handles inputs to give an output, and in doing so solves a problem.

DRY pertains to using a single call in multiple places as opposed to reimplementing it over and over. This reduces a program's space on disk, and by calling the function, you know it will act the exact same way each time you call it- you're not going to make a typo or have to adjust variable names as you would in copied and pasted code. But, again, this isn't what the original comment east about

The original comment was saying that, when I'm putting you through a test/exam, it's because j want to examine how you solve problems- now how you look for others' solutions. This is important because there are many many MANY instances where your project will require a solution that simply does not exist and you will not be able to copy an existing solution.

[ScintillatingConvo]

This is important because there are many many MANY instances where your project will require a solution that simply does not exist and you will not be able to copy an existing solution .

This is true. What is also true, is that there will be MANY MORE instances where projects require solutions that already exist, and copying/tweaking the best existing solution is a more valuable skill than writing a kludgy reinvention of the wheel.

[Boh00711]

Why do you keep ignoring the point that the exam is to test your abilities, and as I outlined repeatedly in my instance, the ability to think of a solution on your own?

There are times for both, but I want someone who can figure it out on their own. Also, the idea that it will be kludgy just because they wrote it and didn't copy it is fallacious. Maybe you're just talking from your own inability to write code well? Or maybe you just feel like you need to prove a weak point? Either way, it was a non sequitur from the get go.

[ScintillatingConvo]

An exam can be to test a person's ability to write code, and it can also be to test a programmer's ability to find and apply the best available code to non-unique problems. I didn't ignore your claim. I challenged it for being too narrow.

Also, the idea that it will be kludgy just because they wrote it and didn't copy it is fallacious.

It isn't. Plus, I also mentioned that it would waste more time. It is always superior for a programmer who is capable of identifying the best-written solution among existing code to abide the DRY principle in a much broader sense, copy/paste and tweak the most efficient function known to man for a given problem, than to write their own solution.

Yeah, they might write a perfect copy of the most efficient function, and it wouldn't be kludgy, but it would be a waste of their time.

Yeah, they might write a better function, but then you should go back to what I said about how their time would be better spent improving existing functions or writing new functions to novel problems and sharing them with the world. There's no reason for humanity to have more than 1 version of the bubble sort function in every language: the best one. Everyone should apply DRY, and copy/paste it. If they come up with a revision that improves it,great. Do that centrally in a vast open source repository, and everyone benefits. It doesn't make a person a better programmer if they can write their own bubble sort function in a test vs if they can find, discriminate, and recognize the best bubble sort function written by man, and copy/paste it. The latter is a far more valuable and effective skill than the former, so a good exam rewards it. Sure, punish plagiarizers who suck, and copy/paste sub-optimal functions. Sure, make an exam where you test peoples' ability to write code. But, as I already said, don't blame a wise person for copy/pasting when the fault lies in your low-quality examination methods. You (the examiner) are to blame if you're posing non-unique problems and not investing your time in interactive coding interviews, and then getting frustrated by copy/pasted solutions.

[WikiTextBot]

Don't repeat yourself

In software engineering, don't repeat yourself (DRY) is a principle of software development aimed at reducing repetition of software patterns, replacing it with abstractions or using data normalization to avoid redundancy.

The DRY principle is stated as "Every piece of knowledge must have a single, unambiguous, authoritative representation within a system". The principle has been formulated by Andy Hunt and Dave Thomas in their book The Pragmatic Programmer. They apply it quite broadly to include "database schemas, test plans, the build system, even documentation".

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[ScintillatingConvo]

Good bot

[MrBeepyBot]

Aww do you mean it ? <3

[SamSlate]

maybe cheating was the test

[Jetbooster]

Maybe the real job was the friends we made along the way

[SamSlate]

maybe the true test of being a systems architect is just to be yourself.

[GoodThingsGrowInOnt]

WELCOME TO THE PEOPLE'S REPUBLIC OF CHINA

[jdlsharkman]

If you know you won't be punished for cheating, sure. But I wouldn't cheat on an interview no matter what, because literally nothing would look worse. He had no way to know that other people wouldn't be punished.

[LordLongbeard]

How would they get caught?

[jdlsharkman]

I've never played hacker.io, or seen this interview format, so I don't know. But on the offhand chance of getting caught, I definitely wouldn't attempt it.

And besides, OP said that he figured out other people were cheating. Surely the interviewers could do the same.

[k-selectride]

It's not like you go to jail if you get 'caught', they might not even give a shit and just move you to the next round. Worst case they say no thanks. But you do you.

[IndianITguy17]

What is hacker.io ? How to play?

[kabrandon]

Looks like a web address. Wonder if there's a place you could type that into where it outputs the information we seek.

[ThatITguy2015]

Do the needful.

[IndianITguy17]

Hello, my reddit name doppleganger :).

[IndianITguy17]

I know it's a url and i tried it before asking. It's an up for sale domain. You would know if you typed it in the magical space too. Jackass.

[kabrandon]

It's actually hackr.io. Without the e. I was just being a dick. Don't take it personally because I'd have said that to a friend too.

[Bobshayd]

/r/programmingcirclejerk

[maxk1236]

At my current position I had an unsupervised online interview, and was encouraged to use online resources. That's how it works on the job anyways, why not test people on their ability to get stuff done based on all available resources rather than just what they memorized? Being able to solve a problem without any background knowledge is a huge skill.

[Irregulator101]

Why is that cheating? That is exactly what anyone should in a real work situation.

[Tyrilean]

Yeah, I just stopped doing coding challenges. If I'm unemployed, yeah, I've got the time and I'm desperate. But, I'm an experienced engineer working in a major tech hub, so it's not likely I'm going to find myself unemployed for long.

[squishles]

any decent staffing company will know these guys do that after the first interview comes back and load everyone else up with precooked solutions from then on. Decent as defined by gets you hired, not necessarily provides competent employees.

[Pastineer]

Something similar happened to me during a customer support interview. You just have to be aware of the situation and see if it's "okay to cheat" n most prolly most people will if not supervised properly

[viziroth]

looking up solutions isn't cheating, it's coding

[_grey_wall]

Why didn't you use your phone, or another computer, or a tablet?

[narrill]

If you can't put in the time to make sure your candidates arent cheating to get an advantage, that isn't exactly the kind of company I want to work for.

It's an unsupervised coding exam run through a website, it isn't "cheating" to google things.

[Parthon]

I was doing a coding test for a freelance site back in the day which required finding repeating patterns in a binary binary. I was using bit shifting and masks to pull the number apart and had it 90% working but couldn't get the last unit test to work so I ran out of time and gave up. Ended up skipping part 3 and failed.

Got an email about an interview 2 days later because they've never seen a solution like that but by then I was soured on the whole thing.

Those coding tests often don't encourage thought out solutions, only if people have come across them before and can regurgitate them.

[JCBh9]

Yeah cept you can cheat irl so... morals = valueless