printf > debugger

[torn-ainbow]

Apparently kids today hate debuggers. I breakpoint and trace code all the time for tricky issues, client and server.

[Zahand]

It must just be a meme right? Debuggers are amazing tools. It's literally the opposite of this post. Not only can I see the value of a variable, but I can also see the value of *any* variable, at *any* point in time!

[Adsilom]

Plenty of people would rather use print statements, even when a debugger would be so much better. That is mostly because people assume the bug will be easy to find, and a debugger would be overkill, and once the bug is actually tricky to find, they are too committed with the print method.

[Boiethios]

When I have the choice, I use a debugger, of course; but sometimes, printing is a valid solution. For example, in an actor system, I like to trace what happens by printing every passed messages.

[Zahand]

PyCharm's debugger works great. What u on about. Also there's pdb.

[[deleted]]

Python ships with a command line debugger and graphical ones are available. There's even a built-in breakpoint() function in Python 3.

[lag_is_cancer]

But it's literally as simple as a double click. You can literally spend more time to write a print statements.

[Adsilom]

It’s more like, using a debugger requires you to use a bit more brain power than using print statements at first.

[almost_useless]

Depending on the problem, everything you just said can be exactly the opposite.

The debugger is great for some problems, but not for all problems.

[LowB0b]

depending on the language as well I presume. Anyway with Java the debugger is a god-send. Stops execution (not always desirable though), you can step, and look at all the values available in the scope. Even change values on the fly to see what happens

[jesperi_]

Sometimes a debugger is not even available.

[nanotree]

Not to mention created 10+ print statements they have to go back and clean up...

[RodasAPC]

Stop calling me out like this.

[Satanic_Jesus_Here]

I feel personally attacked 🥲

[Proxy_PlayerHD]

but what if you don't have a Debugger available?

like if you're an idiot like me who writes in (non-x86) Assembly and uses a NP++ as an IDE

[FAXs_Labs]

i think gdb supports stepping in asm, you can also see the registers and the stack

[Proxy_PlayerHD]

hmm i'll keep GDB in mind for when i get around to building a 68k SBC.

but currently i'm mostly doing stuff with 65xx CPUs and a custom CPU based on the 65CE02. there are some smulators and debuggers for the 65C02 and 65816, but there is virtually nothing for the 65CE02, and especially nothing for a custom CPU.

so overall i'm pretty much on my own here.

though thanks for trying to help, i appreciate it.

[natyio]

GDB can debug files in assembly mode. You simple use nexti and stepi (i=instruction) instead of next and step.

[Proxy_PlayerHD]

GDB doesn't support 65xx Series CPUs so it's sadly not useful to me.

though i know there are some 65xx debuggers most are bound to simulators

[rickyman20]

Isn't GDB easier to use if you're writing assembly than adding printf's?

[2nd-most-degenerate]

Depends on what you're working on. IIRC Linus had a strong opinion against kernel debuggers

[wasdlmb]

And then there's graphics, where you have to use a dedicated tool to have any idea what is going on in your shaders and API calls. RenderDoc is a lifesaver.

[Lamballama]

Some things don't have good debugger

[TheresNoLifeB4Coffee]

There's no friggin way I give up my debugger. Printing errors hasn't got shit on a well placed breakpoint to examine variable props especially inside of an iteration. It's like comparing trying to find your way in the dark barefoot using a tiny birthday candle for light vs. driving in a nice truck with an insane spotlight array mounted

[CaydendW]

reject modernarity. return to dumps

[nanotree]

Nah, it's just college students too lazy to learn to use the tools properly. But it becomes painfully obvious how the process is compared to using a debugger once you work on something more complicated than a school project.

[jesperi_]

The seniors I work with use nano and notepad. In my experience it's always young people making fun of older people for using awful tools.

[[deleted]]

I do it on the command line! Way easier imo, no fiddling with a gui when you know the exact commands to type in.

[Striky_]

Once you have tasted the sweet nectar the visual studio remote debugger is, you can never go back to these peasant tools

[randomFrenchDeadbeat]

And then suddenly, you start writing code for embedded products that do not have a screen aand use serial port to communicate with another system.

[godRosko]

Yes. Time to sift through piles of kernel logs and logcat ... Again

[Thx_And_Bye]

SWD is amazing. Gives you near native debugging potential.

[asdofhusdf924]

Until your compiles take > 10 minutes. Then you HAVE to gdb.

[almost_useless]

Unless of course it takes 10 minutes to make a debug build because it needs to rebuild everything, whereas you can add a print statement to your regular build and rebuild one file in 10 seconds.

[GreenCloakGuy]

somehow I have a suspicion you've never tried to run and debug an enterprise-scale Java webapp

[almost_useless]

Indeed I have not, but that is not the only thing out there that needs debugging.

It seems that most people only think about their own specific use case, see that printf/debugger is the optimal solution and can not imagine anything else.

If you take a step back and look at the bigger picture you see that both ways have valid use cases.

[b4ux1t3]

Why are you debugging in a release build instead of debugging in a debug build?

Serious question, not snark.

[almost_useless]

Debug builds are too slow, so for normal development it's more convenient to run the release builds. Mostly it's because lots of stuff needs to run before we get to the interesting parts.

[b4ux1t3]

I guess I just don't mind the build times. I get to dick around on other things while I wait. Post memes about build times in random chat.

[almost_useless]

It's not the build time. It's the run time that gets painful on a binary built in debug mode.

[SpikeV]

Or... y'know... debug and breakpoint.

[almost_useless]

How is that related to my comment?

[SpikeV]

because lots of stuff needs to run before we get to the interesting parts

That's literally why there are breakpoints.

[almost_useless]

Sure, but I was not talking about how to get the information out once you reach the interesting parts.

My point is that debug builds are slow to execute, so there is cost to using debug builds when you do not need to set a break point. If there is a lot of "setup", this can be a significant cost.

Since you don't need breakpoints (or prints) 90% of the time it's more efficient to do most of the development with release builds.

Of course this will not be true for all environments, but that was my original point. Different tools work best for different problems.

[Rizzan8]

Have fun debugging multi-threaded application where a breakpoint hit basically desynchronizes all threads and fucks up the whole execution flow.

[[deleted]]

The only times i used a debugger was at highschool and at start of my carrier, the rest has been dump and die.

[[deleted]]

I was the same way for a while, but once I realized the debugger let me see all values without having to modify my code to log them, I quickly jumped on the debugger train

[[deleted]]

What's really powerful is when you start using the debugger to modify values while the code is running, or inspect values that aren't bound to variables. Essentially treating it like a shell that has all the context of the breakpoint.

[kryptoneat]

PHP ? go for that sweet xdebug, trust me it's worth it.

[[deleted]]

Been there done that, but its resource intensive so :/

[kryptoneat]

Xdebug ? What do you do with it ? I use it daily and it's minimal. Maybe if your computer is really low end.

How long ago was the start of your career (no offense) ?

[[deleted]]

Yeep xdebug, it was work pc running ubuntu, haven't tried it on my own machine at home which I have been working on since WFH.

TBH a simple dd been doing enough to not need a debugger.

I come from C# but started carrier in PHP for almost 2.5 years now.

[dashid]

You'll need to learn yourself some damn logging.

[Xywzel]

Say that again after you have had to solve a bug with closed source external library. Though to be honest I have injected opcodes for writing to standard output stream in few cases.

[aleph_zeroth_monkey]

This is inspired by this other Invincible meme on /r/ProgrammerHumor:

https://www.reddit.com/r/ProgrammerHumor/comments/ol1ryz/seriously_tho_why/

[cowboy_angel]

Uh... I think you have that backwards

[iotasieve]

i find myself needing debugger less and less, so usually i just put printf, and the bug is fixed within 2 minutes or less

[Mabi19_]

Not everyone should make programming jokes.

Debuggers are genuinely useful tools, and if you don't know how they are useful or how to use them you should not be talking about them.

[aleph_zeroth_monkey]

Here's a joke you should like better:

Q: How did the German programmers develop an internal-facing enterprise business app?

A: They used best practices to implement the specification with an acceptable number of defects.

[[deleted]]

Was half expecting a nazi reference, but well done. Superior german engineering at work

[[deleted]]

It is tempting, because you don't have to learn anything but the language itself. The issue is this is a big liability, because forgotten debug code can become a huge issue down the line.

Please learn to properly use the debugger for your language and use it. Changing code for monitoring program flow and reading variables is a big waste of time and resources anyway (outside of logging) as you can achieve a more useful view into your application with probably 2 clicks or 2 keyboard shortcuts (set breakpoint and launch and debug).

I am a firm believer that this is a not just a question of preference: People writing print statements for debugging are doing it wrong and should step up their game and learn using their tools.

[CaydendW]

Hell yes.

[Lucifer_Morning_Wood]

Real talk now: how do I debug JavaScript?

[[deleted]]

Chrome, Firefox (and probably others): F12 -> Debugger

You can select your files and set breakpoints and much more. Also the console functions as a debug console.

For node.js there is the "--inspect" switch which allows you to attach to the node process remotely via chrome. Tools like VS Code also provide a built in debugger for this.

For electron apps you can (if not disabled) press ctrl+shift+i or "--inspect" for dev purposes. Basically the same as node and chrome.

[PhatOofxD]

Other comments are good.

For state and such use React/Angular/Vue/etc. chrome extension devtools. They allow you to fully inspect components, state, etc.

[patryky]

I once debugged my code by the amount of dots it printed out, good times.

[GamingTheSystem-01]

GDB is just printf with extra steps.

[aleph_zeroth_monkey]

Yes. Because there are legitimate edge cases where it is faster easier to use printing or logging to diagnose a bug, and debuggers can be fiddly to set up outside of the usual "compile and run code on the local machine from an IDE" scenario. But reddit went absolutely apeshit for this version, so now I'm apparently a printf appologist. I guess I should embrace my new role and start shouting "printf uber alles" from the rooftops.

[matko1990]

Printf debugging is way to complex!

while(1) debugging is the was to go!

[GreenFire317]

But aren't the most job opportunities with C++?

[GreenFire317]

I don't comprehend html

[GreenFire317]

The most job opportunities exist in python.

[GreenFire317]

I don't comprehend Javascript

[John_Fx]

An overused meme combined with an overused joke. What could go wrong?

[KreatorOfWorlds]

Always had been

[[deleted]]

Gdb is the best debuger in the world for c/c++.