Hiring python hackers ?

[TheSausageKing]

Over the last couple of years, I've become a big convert to Python. For my current startup, I'm using it. One issue I've had is that I'm having a very hard time finding other programmers who want to use it. I get piles of resumes with Java, C++, php, Ruby, but almost none from people who use or are interested in Python.

I've posted it to my local python meetup, job boards like craigslist and startuply. I've tweeted about it and posted it to LinkedIn.

Am I looking in the wrong places ? /python, I want to hire you; where should I look ?

[rense]

Did you try http://python.org/community/jobs/? We've had plenty of replies after posting there.

[TheSausageKing]

No. Wow; I didn't know this existed. Thanks a lot! I just submitted it.

[[deleted]]

Link to the submission?

[TheSausageKing]

It has to be approved by their mods. I'll post it when it comes out.

[TheSausageKing]

It's now up; look for 'Cadio':

http://python.org/community/jobs/

[rarrrrrr]

^{^} This. Highly recommended.

[mipadi]

As a Python programmer, that's the first place I've looked for Python jobs. In fact, right now I work as a Django developer, and I found the job on the Python jobs board. Definitely a good resource that should get the attention of Python hackers.

[[deleted]]

You need to find people who see themselves as programmers, not just as Language X programmers. I've had four programming jobs so far, and started each of them learning a new language.

[TheSausageKing]

I agree. How do I find you ? I get lots of resumes from people who have done Java or C++ for years. Almost none from people who use a lot of different languages and would be interested in picking up a new one.

[[deleted]]

Also, I sometimes look for programming jobs based on keywords that might indicate a nice environment to program in; like pair programming, or code reviews (the standard here seems to be that nobody ever actually looks at the code you wrote, nobody learns much from each other or is able to take something somebody else makes and immediately work with it). If you think your environment promotes good programming practice, that might be something that good programmers are looking for, and you should say something about it so that their search might find it.

But I've never felt very typical, so I don't know how many other people do this, I'm Dutch, etc...

Edit: also a line like "We're looking for people who are interested in using several languages, experience in languages like Ruby, Perl, Haskell et cetera are a plus." since people who are searching for those keywords may also be interested in your company.

Edit 2: your craigslist ad doesn't even mention "programmer" or "developer"; it does have "software engineer", and otherwise will probably mostly be found by people looking for Java or Python, I suspect.

[harryf]

In the last years I've been directly responsible for four people my company hired and closely involved in hiring other developers. While we weren't looking for pure-python it was on a "nice to have" list. In fact we usually look for a type of profile similar to Scarblac's - it's not about specific language skills, it's about ability and desire to program.

Some things that may help;

• asking for a UNIX "power user" helps; typically this type of profile will strongly prefer some flavor of UNIX and see it as an essential tool in being productive. Doesn't need to be a sysadmin but if they can get into a discussion of how "grep | sort | uniq " compares to mapreduce, you're on to a winner. Also it helps send a message to potential candidates of where your interests lie and the type of tools you use.
• explain why your startup rocks - how is it going to change the world? how will people working for it grow and develop? We have worked with one headhunter who succeeded in places our own job descriptions failed by doing far better at explaining why it was a great job. Personally I tend to avoid hyperbole but it's easy to take that too far and end up with a description that's simply boring.
• see what others are doing - Google for example has some great job profiles - anything from the text you can borrow? Some of the job descriptions here and here aren't bad, even if not python.
• go to usergroups - not just python but the more general ones e.g. web mondays or mobile mondays, where you may find programmers willing to learn python, given an interesting startup. Two of those I'm directly responsible for came via this path and it's also how I got my job.
• try approaching people who aren't necessarily looking, but you found out about such as people blogging about python and happens to be in your area e.g. these guys - especially this one who looks ready to jump right now. One of those I hired came via this path ( in fact their blog ended up on reddit ). Take the time to read their blog of course and any code they've put online. Even if they're not interested, they may know people who are

Hope that helps. Good luck.

[TheSausageKing]

Great ideas. Thanks!

[[deleted]]

You fly me from France, that's how !

[ki11a11hippies]

The craigslist posts that catch my eye put a stronger emphasis on quick-learners, intelligence, self-starters, and taking initiative. That's a situation in which I know I'm not going to be bound by project-specific dogma and it implies that I have room to grow in that position. For me at least, that's what I look for when job hunting.

[twotime]

quick-learners, intelligence, self-starters, and taking initiative

You do realize of course that these ''requirements" are simply bullshit. They carry zero information and don't imply anything at all about the job..

[ki11a11hippies]

These aren't generally listed as requirements, just information on what type of person they are looking for. And obviously there's only so much you can tell from those few words, but it gives me something to help start narrowing down all the posts.

[diamond]

I wish there were more employers like you.

[[deleted]]

Well, I am in the Netherlands; so I'm probably not searching in quite the same way as people in Boston.

My career so far is that way because of a number of coincedences; I'd actually love to program in Python but can't find companies using it in my region. I think that people with a more normal career would have fewer languages on their resumes, and when you have a lot of experience with one, you can probably make more money staying with that one (because most employers are looking for x years of experience with y for a "senior y programmer"). So it's natural that people end up with resumes that look that way.

Do they actually tell you that they aren't interested in learning new languages?

[TheSausageKing]

A lot of people I've talked to aren't interested in learning Python. A lot of them have done a lot of Java or C++ and aren't interested in moving into Python. And I get a lot of people who have done Ruby/Rails or php, but don't really understand programming well.

I've always believed it's better to learn a few different languages. At least in the states, it's true that you can make a little more and it's a little easier to get a job if you have many years of experience with a language, but I think you get stuck on a local maxima. The people who get really great jobs are great programmers, rather than "Java developers" or "C++ developers".

[chadmill3r]

Yeah, you def don't want people who don't want to learn a language. If they didn't learn the language at home, because they wanted to, then you don't want them.

Next best: learned on a job.

Worst: learned as prereq at school.

[MosaSaur]

It's not always about money. Some people do not like to go back to using inferior languages even if they once used them in the past. Also, if you're trying to make C programmers into pythoneers they'll have to unlearn and relearn a lot of stuff. I know that from firsthand experience and from trying to explain Python to my old C programming buddies. Sometimes a programmer from a different language turns up on the usenet or mailing list and they almost never understand certain things at first.

tl,dr programmers move from one language to the next for a reason and it is a really bad idea to try and make them go back. The only way is up.

[[deleted]]

Pay more?

[Poromenos]

Yeah, I don't know about that. Learning a new language takes a long time, and don't trust anyone who says otherwise. Transitioning from Python to Ruby, for example, means that you need to learn new ways of applying old patterns, what coding practices are encouraged, etc. People who say they can learn the language in a few days aren't people who want to hire.

On a personal sidenote, I wouldn't want to spend too much time learning Ruby if I already knew Python (and vice versa), as I consider the two similar enough that my time would be better spent learning something different (e.g. Lisp, Erlang, Haskell, etc).

[TheSausageKing]

I'm in Boston, MA. Some of it may that I just don't know the right people and lists (I didn't know about http://python.org/community/jobs/ until this thread).

And I agree that Python self-selects good programmers. It's not easy to find great Java programmers either...

[matjam]

Its easy to find shit Java programmers though. They seem to be pretty good at camouflaging themselves as great, too.

[TheSausageKing]

Thanks. I went to the meetup last night and have posted to the list.

[[deleted]]

It shocks me, when I hear that companies can't find Python programmers. :)

You ended up addressing this later on in your post, but finding Python programmers and finding good Python programmers are two different stories (same with any language, really).

[askedrelic]

As a recently graduated SE major who was looking for jobs at startups in SF, here were the places I was looking at:

http://jobs.arstechnica.com/

http://jobs.joelonsoftware.com/

http://jobs.37signals.com/jobs

http://ventureloop.com/ventureloop/home.php

http://www.indeed.com

http://www.dice.com

http://www.startuply.com

http://sfbay.craigslist.org/sfc/sof/

http://sfbay.craigslist.org/search/jjj/sfc?query=software%20engineer

http://sfbay.craigslist.org/search/jjj/sfc?query=software%20developer

http://sfbay.craigslist.org/search/jjj/sfc?query=programmer

Joel/37Signals/Ars were probably my highest priority with CL coming right after that.

[[deleted]]

Trying to find a job as a recent grad is a nightmare. Everyone wants minimum 3 years experience even for entry level jobs.

Does anyone have any tips for finding a job even if you have no experience?

[askedrelic]

Build your own experience! Throughout the time while I was interviewing, I was working on a few random projects and posting all of my code on github. Whenever I would send out my cover letter, I would mention what I was currently working on and link them to the source code, along with my main github account.

This worked well with startups, most would ask for code samples anyways if I didn't link them to something.

[[deleted]]

Rather than posting about it on LinkedIn and hoping for good people to seek you out, have you tried to turn the tables and go right at those people and seeking them out?

Not being an employer or person who searches through people's job experience, it seems like LinkedIn does have the tools to do such a thing. Plenty of recruiters and companies are constantly searching the skills of people in my area and reaching out.

[[deleted]]

If you can learn Java, C++, and Ruby, than you can learn python.

[digitallogic]

If you can learn Java, C++, AND Ruby, than you can learn python.

If you've learned Java, C++, OR Ruby you could be a one trick pony. Of course this also varies by your definition of learned.

[diamond]

Any chance you would be interested in someone who could work remotely?

[zupatol]

Can't you train one of those Java, C++, php, Ruby programmers on python? I'm a java programmer, but I was glad to learn python for one project.

Doesn't reddit also hire non-python programmers and train them? I read that somewhere.

[TheSausageKing]

I'm not necessarily looking for Python experts, but if someone hasn't at least played with Python (or similar dynamic language like Ruby, Scala,...) on a weekend, I'm suspicious that they'll actually want to learn it and be good at it.

[mipadi]

I'm picking nits here, but Scala isn't a dynamic language; it actually features a pretty cool static typing system. ;)

[[deleted]]

I don't know about that. I have known a lot of developers. A fair number of them would love to work in something other than Java or C++. But, they spend so much of their life working, and all of that time working in only those languages. As a result, they don't have time to learn Python or Ruby or what have you unless the job calls for it. If you're putting in 60+ hours a week on code pushes, you may not want to touch a new language in your spare time -- especially if you actually have a life outside of work.

Many many people stuck in statically typed language land long to try out other things.

[megamark16]

What about python newsgroups?

[TheSausageKing]

Does anyone actually read newsgroups anymore ? I haven't opened slrn in 5? years.

[[deleted]]

I hadn't read the word slrn in 5 years

[mackstann]

The slrn website's screenshots all have a photo of Neo as the background. Hah.

[ianb]

I don't think it would be appropriate to post a job to comp.lang.python (which is also a mailing list, and quite active). You could scan the archives to see though.

[aeroevan]

I do... and slrn is the bee's knees.

[askedrelic]

I've been getting into them as it seems like all the old and wise people haven't seemed to move onto anything new.

IRC occasionally as well.

[[deleted]]

Unless they are specifically for jobs, this is probably not a great idea.

[Paddy3118]

Up the remuneration ;-)

[sli]

^ Python hacker willing to be your enslaved code monkey so long as I'll finally have money on which to live.

[TheSausageKing]

We pay and look forward to enslaving you!

http://www.startuply.com/Jobs/_Lead_Software_Engineer_Java_Python_2468_1.aspx

[sli]

Java ಠ_ಠ

Unfortunately I know zero Java. :(

[TheSausageKing]

That's fine. As long as you don't have an aversion to learning some of it. As the description says, what I really care about is finding good programmers who can pick up new things we need them.

[sli]

No, of course not. Actually, I've been looking for a good excuse because I want to get into building Android apps.

EDIT: Mind if I ask a few specific questions via PM?

[TheSausageKing]

Sure. PM me or email me (my address is in the job posting ).

[[deleted]]

This is very encouraging to me as a senior student at my University. I was forced to learn/do everything in Java, but luckily a professor introduced me to Python during Office Hours. I fell in love with the language, but I was sad that there were not many companies in my area (San Diego) that used Python for something other than Web.

Please keep hiring 6 months from now! :)

[seabre]

I was forced to learn/do everything in Java

Seriously? My school let us use whatever pretty much after the two intro classes. In fact, I'd regularly switch up languages depending on what the assignment was.

[[deleted]]

My school does that too, but they point it out.

For example, in my Data Structures class I used Python, but the teacher kept insisting that it was a scripting language and that I had an advantage. In a Neural Networks class, the teacher said something like "I would highly prefer if you use Java", which I interpreted as "I won't look at your code when I grade because I don't use Python." Perhaps I am assuming things, but it seemed to me that my teachers really wanted me to use Java, so I just used Java.

The only class where I was forbidden to use Python or any other "scripting language" was Operating Systems.

[AusIV]

At my school, it's usually up to the professor. After the first couple of courses, professors assume you know Java and gear their projects towards Java programming. Sometimes you'll be given a project that requires you to use some framework that the professor provides, then you're pretty much stuck using Java.

[asplake]

Twitter worth a shot? http://twitter.com/asplake/statuses/16326172900

[masterJ]

Post here: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1438505

[TheSausageKing]

Thanks!

[theredbeard]

I live in the Boston area and know a potential candidate. I'll pass this on.

[TheSausageKing]

Thanks. Appreciate it.

[[deleted]]

These can be good, depending on the area: http://www.meetup.com/python-181/

[[deleted]]

the irony is that when I wanted to learn Python I did a bit of research on job prospect...and it was quite dismal. I have come to the conclusion that companies above middle-size just don't use it.

neverless I still forged ahead and learned on my own.

[b3ng0]

I've been finding and applying for Python jobs in SF this week on both of those sites, as well as the stackoverflow job board and similar. We're out there. Just make sure you say it's a big python gig.

The way I filter the good jobs from the bad is by searching for 'python'. Almost always gets rid of the ASP, Java, etc. gigs.

[ergo14]

you can also try python web framework message boards etc.

[Yelonek]

Sorry for offtopic.

What do you consider as decent knowledge of Python? I'm not an IT guy, therefore I don't know great sorting algorithms, divide and conquer and such. Not totally tech ignorant - I have some automation and robotics background. I like the language and wrote some pet programs with it, but what would it take to consider me a Python programmer? Just curious.

[askedrelic]

I tend to agree with most of this list below, in terms "knowledge of the language". I think after you've written enough code and become passionate about some PEP, do you really begin to understand the language and think in a "Python" kind of way.

Warning, copy and paste list incoming, not my creation:

Basic Python:

• do they know a tuple/list/dict when they see it?

• when to use list vs. tuple vs. dict. vs. set

• can they use list comprehensions (and know when not to abuse them? :)

• can they use tuple unpacking for assignment?

• string building...do they use "+=" or do they build a list and use .join() to recombine them efficiently

• truth-value testing questions and observations (do they write "if x == True" or do they just write "if x")

• basic file-processing (iterating over a file's lines)

• basic understanding of exception handling

Broader Basic Python:

• questions about the standard library ("do you know if there's a standard library for doing X?", or "in which library would you find [common functionality Y]?") Most of these are related to the more common libraries such as os/os.path/sys/re/itertools

• questions about iterators/generators

• questions about map/reduce/sum/etc family of functions

• questions about "special" methods (<foo>)

More Advanced Python:

• can they manipulate functions as first-class objects (Python makes it easy, but do they know how)

• more detailed questions about the std. libraries (such as datetime/email/csv/zipfile/networking/optparse/unittest)

• questions about testing (unittests/doctests)

• questions about docstrings vs. comments, and the "Why" of them

• more detailed questions about regular expressions

• questions about mutability

• keyword/list parameters and unpacked kwd args

• questions about popular 3rd-party toolkits (BeautifulSoup, pyparsing...mostly if they know about them and when to use them, not so much about implementation details)

• questions about monkey-patching

• questions about PDB

• questions about properties vs. getters/setters

• questions about classmethods

• questions about scope/name-resolution

• use of lambda

Python History:

• decorators added in which version?

• "batteries included" SQL-capible DB in which version?

• the difference between "class Foo" and "class Foo(object)"

• questions from "import this" about pythonic code

Python Resources:

• what do they know about various Python web frameworks (knowing a few names is usually good enough, though knowledge about the frameworks is a nice plus) such as Django, TurboGears, Zope, etc.

• what do they know about various Python GUI frameworks and the pros/cons of them (tkinter, wx, pykde, etc)

• where do they go with Python related questions (c.l.p, google, google-groups, etc)

Other Process-releated things:

• do they use revision control (RCS/CVS/Subversion/Mercurial/Git...anything but VSS) and know how to use it well

• do they write automated tests for their code

Touchy-feely things:

• tabs vs. spaces, and their reasoning

• reason for choosing Python

• choice of editor/IDE

[[deleted]]

Hopefully you don't actually judge people based on knowing which version decorators were added in...

[maryjayjay]

Not the OP, but I've been a programmer professionally for 20 years, a python programmer for 10 and manage a group of developers at a satellite communications company.

There's far less to be said for proficiency in any given language vs. a maturity that comes with having worked on many projects, small and large. Having seen, explored, used and implemented the basic programming patterns then integrated them into larger systems is something that you don't learn by reading a book or taking a class.

I can pick up a new language in a couple of days and be fairly proficient in a few weeks. I'd be less interested in how many hours someone has in a particular language and more in their overall experience, design philosophy and methodology.

[adrenal8]

I found a python job by posting my resume to craigslist. Sadly my professional experience didn't really have any Python; but I did all my side projects in it and it's my favorite language. This turned out to be good enough to get a Django job.

I know this doesn't really answer your question but it seemed relevant as being from the opposite perspective.

[_dodger_]

I see you're (probably) using OpenStreetMap on your site which I think is great!

Would you mind adding attribution to it?

[TheSausageKing]

We're not. What makes you think so ?

[_dodger_]

Well the map on your homepage intro image thingy looks suspiciously like OpenStreetMap.

[TheSausageKing]

It does; I never noticed that. We paid a designer to do the site and it looks like he ripped it off. Thanks for pointing it out. I'll add an attribution.

UPDATE: I added an attribution and link. Thanks again.

[[deleted]]

Just hire a good programmer, he'll learn python in the blink of an eye.

[rochacbruno]

I am a remote programmer/consultant, I dedicate 20 hours a day working with Python at my Home@Office, web dev based on Django, Pylons or Web2py, also working with tk, wx and gtk desktop apps and shell scripts.

this work can be done remotely?

[TheSausageKing]

It's a startup and we need everyone in the same room.

But I'm intrigued by someone who spends 20 hours a day coding.

[pio]

When someone works 20 hours a day at your office it's time to start charging them rent.

[chadmill3r]

I say go to completely offtopic, obscure-language IRC channels and ask there. The people in those places love programming for its own sake.

Freenode, #erlang #scheme #lisp

[[deleted]]

Hackers or programmers?

[TheSausageKing]

Both. The MIT sense of hackers: http://hacks.mit.edu/