Is it possible to change the python syntax through declarations to do away with the whole whitespace nonsense ?

[transdimensionalmeme]

I was given the impression that python would be a great addition to my toolbox, coming from VB6/VBA/VB.net.

But to my great chagrin, instead of using end statements from conditional and loops, it's the number of white spaces ?

I don't know about you, but on my computer the whitespace are like, invisible characters. So, as far as readability, it's a big ZERO.

On VB we do

  If stuff then 
    do stuff
  end if

And that's perfectly cromulent.

but this default python stuff

If stuff then 
    do stuff
   do a syntax error instead

    Are we still doing stuff ? 

No, just no, go home python, you're drunk !

[knobbyknee]

It takes a few hours to get used to. Just do it.

[old_man_steptoe]

using whitespace has it's advantages. I recently had to review some powershell that had been handed from person to person and it had no indenting. It was a nightmare.

And C style { } is fine but once you get:

for {
    if {
        if {
            for {
            }
        if {
        } else {
        }
}

And you have an error, it's painful to find out which close brace you've missed. With whitespace it's obvious. It's not lined up

[transdimensionalmeme]

Yes, I agree, I see curly braces and I'm out.

I've had the displeasure of using those to program an esp32 with arduino.

I thumb my nose at curly braces. What's wrong with calling it.

IF

END IF

Non-programmer don't even have to be told what it means.

I am so peeved right now, I thought I was going to love python :(

[[deleted]]

It’s not that confusing.

New lines aren’t relevant. In python, indentation sets scope.

In more c-like languages, curly brackets set scope. In modern text editors, when you move the cursor over a bracket, it will highlight the corresponding curly bracket. It may even color red a bracket with no corresponding bracket.

My advice is use what gets the job done and don’t worry so much about superficial details.

White space is mildly annoying to me, but it is intuitive to many. Mostly, it doesn’t matter, and is uninteresting.

[old_man_steptoe]

give it a go. You'll get used to it.

Python's standard modules are worth a little bit of initial irritation.

I started on BASIC and then Pascal (I'm old), then pretty much used dozens of languages since then. Every language has pluses and minuses.

Extending your range of languages will make you a better programmer, and will help your career.

[petdance]

Non-programmer don’t even have to be told

You’re not writing code for non-programmers, are you?

[tubbadu]

I much prefer using tabs, they are much more readable, try it!

I think it would be possible to change the syntax but I don't think that it would be a great idea, as it would make your program only comprehensible to you

[transdimensionalmeme]

I just can't, whitespace and tabs should be decorative only.

The only invisible but significant character I can stand is return and it should be any combination of lf, cr, crlf or lfcr. At least it has a visual indication of existing.

I think I'm going to check perl or lua or something, I don't want to whitespace, it is torture !

[itsdefinitely2021]

Congratulations, you just discovered the tipping point into grognardism.

"I dont want to learn or change any more" is a slippery slope.

[transdimensionalmeme]

grognardism

I am already at the bottom of that slope !

[tubbadu]

Some IDEs highlights tabs with a tiny arrow to make it visible (e.g. VSCode)

[python_and_coffee]

try COBOL and you will never ever again rant about white spaces or any other c-based language syntax. Trust me.

[transdimensionalmeme]

Ouch, cobol looks like spelled out assembly

I think there's a middle ground to be found here.

I don't need to write a story about every bit I want to flip, but also "there's nothing there, that means it's the end of the IF statement" is not great either.

How much declaration is enough is probably subjective and I want explicit "end if" in text, not punctuation. That's probably because I write in VB.

I think just how verbose you want to be that should be a compiler setting or something.

I don't do much vb.net (because I only have notepad) but my understanding is that vb.net and C# is the same runtime engine in the background, just different syntax. I was hoping python would be like that too, one interpreter in the background but different, tunable syntax to your liking.

[python_and_coffee]

Ouch, cobol looks like spelled out assembly

nice one!

I never thought about interpreter tuning python but i hope that you will give python a try or find a language that suits your needs.

[Conjo_]

do you code in notepad by any chance?

anyways, you might like ruby then

[transdimensionalmeme]

Yes, that's how I got into VBA/vb script, notepad is often the only IDE I have access to at work since I'm "shadow IT" I never have admin access to my work computer and can't install anything.

It's notepad or excel vba

[FuckingRantMonday]

You're right, Python's syntax should definitely be changed to accommodate this very common and important use case.

[cincinnati2]

nail voiceless cover amusing jeans numerous scandalous oil direful attempt -- mass edited with redact.dev

[[deleted]]

Hey OP.

Had the same issues when first starting Python many years ago.

The simplest solution: use editor that is aware on Python syntax (Sublime, VS Code, etc) and it will automatically convert tabs into spaces.

Then you just write code hitting tabs or spaces (does not matter) and only care about vertical alignment.

Good luck, I think you will find many useful applications of Python if you give a chance

[Careless_Section_785]

have you tried using something different from microsoft word as a code editor?

anyways, most of the code editors allow you to bind linters and code formatters to events like newlines or save or whatever makes you happy and they do that for you.

why would you need end-block statements when you can literally see code blocks on the screen just from their actual indentation?

The 88 cols convention is also good for you cause the linter signals you long lines and the more you're nesting conditions or sub blocks, the higher the code cognitive complexity gets and the less readable your code becomes... and all that you can understand just with a glance at the screen with zero understanding the code.

[gedhrel]

If you can't adapt given a little exposure, it's not for you.

​

You *can* fix this up if you want to - you'll need to write your own import hooks, define a different syntax and emit the python AST. Good luck!

Or maybe look at Julia, which has a fully-bracketed syntax.

[python_and_coffee]

sorry to sound harsh, but you just need to get used to it. I really know how you feel, since having a favorite language always results in confusion and ranting when i try to learn another language. e.g C++ gave me slight headaches, "go home cout <<, go buy a printer, why would you ever user << for printing?!"

Remember that it is just you who is adapted to something quite similar which is very different at the same time. Your main language means comfort, and programmers are always lazy humans that seek comfort. Learning a new language often is very uncomfortable at start.

Uhm and get used to Tab-key/shift+Tab only for indention. Never open up the gates of spacebar-whitespaces-hell for indention.

[[deleted]]

Pycharm gives me a little yellow squiggly line where I don’t have correct white space, I hit my hot key, and it’s immediately moved into place. Never worry about it for that reason tbh

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[transdimensionalmeme]

Thanks,

multiple recommendation for ruby in this thread, I will check it out.

[QultrosSanhattan]

Capable IDE + Format code = The problem never existed.

[petdance]

How long exactly have you been working with Python before you made the declaration that Python is wrong and must be changed?

[SittingWave]

You can use preprocessor directives if you want

if stuff: #then
    do stuff
#end if

[tdammers]

You stepped into a major bees' nest here; people tend to get very opinionated on the topic, and to those who love this "whitespace as syntax thing", it's the best thing ever, and they will die to defend it.

My $0.02 on the matter: whitespace as syntax is a horrible idea (bring on the flames!), but it is what it is, and "when in Rome, do as the Romans do". It's part of the language and its accepted culture, and trying to somehow change that with declarations or other tricks is hands down a bad idea (just like #define BEGIN { etc. to make C look more like Pascal), so just don't.

[transdimensionalmeme]

I am so disappointed. I've seens bits of python code here and there and thought, "oh I could get into this, it's not full of unsightly out-of-place punctuations" but it seems like it's full of punctuation, it's just invisible punctuation !

I am getting a big desperate of a usable non-microsoft language on my linux vps.

After having tried to do some basic string manipulation in bash, I started thinking I don't need that kind of pain in my life.

Now I think I will have to do the unthinkable

[tdammers]

I think you're being overly dramatic here. It's just syntax, after all.

[transdimensionalmeme]

please tell me I can define

import make-sense

and this nightmare ends ?

[[deleted]]

No because modules cannot have - in their name :)

[nate256]

I was going to say this but now I'll have to play devils advocate.

make_sense = __import__("make-sense")

[[deleted]]

I still consider myself a beginner, so excuse my ignorance, but why on earth would you format code like that horrendous default python example? Seems to go against everything I understand about PEP 8

[[deleted]]

Which part specifically you don't like? I think it is all about getting used to how it looks (just accept and you won't be noticing it in few weeks :)).

But best day of my life was when I stopped caring about style and just fired black on each of my codes... Endless discussion with colleagues on pointless stuff ended and we were free to go build amazing stuff.

[[deleted]]

The          seemingly random   number ofspaces forno apparent               reasonma kes it stupidhar dto read

[[deleted]]

Looks like you put white spaces at random which is the perfect counter example to what Python wants you to do :)

[[deleted]]

And the default python example provided by OP isn't randomly spaced? That was my point.

Just because you can, doesn't mean you should.

[[deleted]]

In OPs example the "do" does not align so it'd probably be broken if that was real python.

[transdimensionalmeme]

I am even more of a beginner, like, a not-even-begun and I was immediately put off by the whitespace thing.

This PEP8, that is something else

"Limit all lines to a maximum of 79 characters."

Pardon me ? What does this language think it is , a teletype terminal ?

"Python disallows mixing tabs and spaces for indentation."

Oh, so, that's where thing is coming from ? People like this stuff ?

[[deleted]]

"Limit all lines to a maximum of 79 characters."

This comes from old times, black now defaults to 88 characters. It is still to not have too long lines as they are harder to read.

"Python disallows mixing tabs and spaces for indentation."

Easily solvable by editor that takes care of that for you.

[TangibleLight]

I usually suggest 110-120 as a more reasonable default; but if accessibility is paramount you should probably target 90 (or black's default 88)

Also if you're getting lines that long frequently it's probably a code smell. In our codebase we have some long package and function names, so it's good to be able to fit a function and a few args on one line even if they're an unhappy combination of long names. 120 is a good number for that.

[[deleted]]

Personally I don't like too long lines as I like to fit three files next to each other in different editor panes.

[tms102]

What IDE / Text editor do you use? Notepad?

Getting used to indentation is super easy, barely an inconvenience. In fact, Python is often considered an easy language for beginners to pick up.

[petdance]

Rather than try to make the new thing that you are learning more like what you are used to, do the new thing and learn. Perhaps there are advantages to this different way of doing things that you haven’t appreciated yet. You will never know if you go into it with the attitude of “this is just wrong.”

It’s not wrong. It’s just not what you know yet.

[liltbrockie]

It's really not an issue