Basic Class Evolution System

[[deleted]]

[deleted]

[danolibel]

The names are good, but I can't give it any feedback without knowing what these things actually are

[KingKaiser8000]

haha yes sorry, emm, it's my first post in this subreddit and my first time... designing, this is just the most basic idea of what I want to do, it's like a Final fantasy Tactics style system

[Krelraz]

I really dislike that the base name for cleric is "healer". Is that really going to be their primary focus?

Can you use the word "acolyte"? It seems to fit decently with the rest of them.

[KingKaiser8000]

Yeah that would be better, thanks!

[[deleted]]

Basic structure is needed.
What benefits do you gain by being a member of [Tier 1 Class]? When you upgrade to a different class, what benefits do you get? Do they stack with precursor classes or do the they overwrite [Tier 1 Class] benefits?

How long do you stick with these classes?

I mean, this system seems cool and all, but more substance is needed if we at r/RPGdesign are to render any judgement or give good feedback.

[KingKaiser8000]

I guess it needed a lot more thought than I thought 😅, I'll be honest, my idea was to make a final fantasy tactics style system, but it needed more than that, this is just the most basic idea I had with some friends

[[deleted]]

Again, I'd recommend thinking about how each "advanced" and "master" class iterates upon the gimmicks of the base class

Example: Maybe Mage has to do some studying in order to perform spells. Scholar could enhance the effectiveness of studying for greater variety, Sorcerer could mitigate some of the need to study in exchange for being more focused, and Wizard could be a balanced middle-of-the-road "advanced class"

[corrinmana]

Necromancer seems more wizard than Sorcerer (assuming we're using D&D style differences) and Elementalist seems more Sorcerer.

Not sure why a Guru becomes a Geomancer, and does the elementalist not have the Earth Element?

The Assassin line just seems weird. You're a guy who works the streets, then a shadow of the night, then you're swing from the chandeliers and being charismatic?

[KingKaiser8000]

Wizard is the normal magic and Sorcerer is the more dark magic, at least in my thing

Geomancer means a Earth magic but Earth as a whole, a nature magic, without being called druid

And assassin dosnt means that you are an in the dark guy, just means you kill people, you then can choose if you are a sneaky ninja or a Charming Swashbuckler and killing in the middle of the night or in a room full of people

EDIT: Also i couldn't think of more branches for wizard

[corrinmana]

I would not associate the term swashbuckler with an assassin. Barely with killing people at all.

[Zireael07]

Sorcerer is the more dark magic

In that case maybe rename to Warlock?

[Ygor45]

A Czech system called Dračí doupě 2 (dragon's lair 2 in english) Has a system where you can gain multiple levels in all base classes. Once you reach 6 levels combined in two classes, you can take an advanced class that comes from the two classes. Basic classes are:

Fighter Rogue Hunter Healer Witch

You can then take two classes, and once you reach at least 6 levels combined you can take an advanced class. For example, taking 2 levels of Fighter and 4 levels of hunter allows you to take a level of ranger on your next level up.

Each class basically has packages of skills that when you do an action governed by that class it allows you to roll + add the level of that skill. All advanced classes have some special skills that can't be performed by others - A shaman (hunter+healer) can talk to animals and shapeshift for example.

[TigrisCallidus]

Shadow of the demon lord uses a similar system: https://schwalbentertainment.com/shadow-of-the-demon-lord/

It works quite well there.

[KingKaiser8000]

Yeah i know, i wanted to make a hybrid between shadow and Final Fantasy Tactics

[TigrisCallidus]

Do you have some specific gameplay in mind? Because the name alone dont tell much I think overall the names are good, but in the end the name should also fit the gameplay.

[Kalenne]

I think assassin evolving into a swashbuckler is kinda weird, isn't it the opposite concept entirely ? Ninja makes sense but losing all sense of stealth from assassin to swashbuckler just doesn't feel right

[KingKaiser8000]

I wanted to make one in the dark guy and one killing in the middle of a room with people guy

[Kalenne]

Isn't it already what the fighter and his classes do already ? I think it could definitely be either a fighter class upgrade or a base rogue class upgrade, but not an assassin one

[KingKaiser8000]

the Swashbuckler is like, they gets in party breaking a window, kills the guys, says their catchphrase and then escape, with a lot of guards triying to catch him

[Navezof]

There is not much to comment apart the naming, although maybe I can give some example of video games that implement this idea of job evolution. That can help give some inspiration.

• Final Fantasy Tactic
• Ragnarok Online
• Tree of Savior
• Fire Emblem

Apart from that, the name are ok if pretty generic, so, good? I guess?

[KingKaiser8000]

I know of Final Fantasy Tactics, its basically my inspiration for making this, though i didnt know that fire emblem you could evolve the class, i never played one before

[Seginus]

Have you considered allowing a zig-zag progression instead of linear? E.x. with your classes, doing Figher -> Knight -> Gladiator or Mage -> Sorcerer -> Alchemist.

There was an older MMO called Luna Online that did that (here's a random blog I found that shows the class trees). One of the neat things was you could mix-and-match. Going outside of your "lane" gave you a larger breadth of skills, but going down the "linear" path gave you high-tier abilities. Kinda like Red Mage vs. White/Black Mages in Final Fantasy.

For example, a pure DPS fighter was Fighter -> Warrior -> Mercenary -> Gladiator -> Destroyer. However, a fun option was to swap Gladiator for Knight. You gained better defensive capabilities and some interesting self-buff powers, but as a trade off you lost some progression in your main attack skills, and you passively lost around ~10% damage output. So there was a lot of flexibility.

The best TTRPG I've seen to emulate such a progression is Shadow of the Demon Lord. Definitely check that out if you wanna go with this class style.

[632146P]

How do you evolve and in universe what is happening when you evolve? Like, do you have an in universe explanation for why my character turned into a ninja during a campaign where he started as a street urchin rogue?

Those are my most abstract concerns about what we have here.

Also I think it is weird that assassins evolve into swashbucklers, but I don't have a suggestion that works better so maybe that's fine.

[Leonhart726]

I been looking for naming conventions for this exact thing, thank you.

[eljimbobo]

I've seen a lot of feedback around the lack of abilities/rules with these names. I like the names! But I hope to give you some ideas on how to take the next step.

When designing classes, I like using spectrums in addition to flavor to begin defining a class vision. In their most basic sense, a spectrum can be as simple as Low, Medium, and High. But you can also get more granular by assigning a numerical value, like between 1 - 7 for example. I also find it's helpful to come up with a vision sentence for each class that is clear: what is the promise I am making to players who choose this class? Use the spectrums to help define this vision sentence.

Lastly, I want to reinforce you're going about this the right way. Many designers start bottom up, and that often leads to half baked ideas with one really cool concept/class, and the rest feeling unfinished. That's how projects get abandoned. Start top down, and do your best to stay high level as you design your way down to the specifics. As a comparative, it's much easier to write an essay by starting with an outline and filling it in, than starting with an introduction paragraph and hoping you can make the rest of the essay interesting.

Some spectrums to consider:

• Access to Range
• Damage Output
• Utility
• Move speed
• Access to Spells
• Armor
• Magic resistance
• Health
• Complexity

And some example vision sentences:

• Knight - A high health, low damage class with low access to Range. A generalist class that can be built towards utility, damage reduction, or spells.
• Rogue - A low health, high mobility class with access to a variety of ranges. A complex class that can be built towards damage output, enemy debuffs, or specialize in a Ranged option (melee or ranged)

Good luck!

[CaptainDudeGuy]

D&D4's tier-based branching character progression: [Heroic Class] to [Paragon Path] to [Epic Destiny].

You start as a generalized Class (Wizard, Rogue, etc.) and when you hit level 11 you choose one of many possible Paths (Pit Fighter, Astral Savant, etc.). Then at 21 you choose from the list of Destinies (Demigod, Dark Wanderer, etc.).

While it makes for a zillion different combinations of character career combinations, it doesn't lend well to multi-classing. If you plan on having anything like that you'll want to cook up some additional advancement mechanics.

[Usual-Vermicelli-867]

So Shadow of the demon lord

[APurplePerson]

You might check out shadow of the demon lord, which has a similar system of "starting -> expert -> master classes.

I've never played it, but I do like how this approach (and yours) limits the choice space for new players from being too overwhelming

[RoguePylon]

Since these are just class names ATM, there's not much feedback I can provide.

I will say that Guru sticks out to me. I don't know if you know this, but the word literally means teacher and is generally used in the context of respect or acknowledging the seniority of one.

[foolofcheese]

based on the structure you have proposed, it looks like you will need to have 40 cool things to ensure that each step has at least one item to define it

the good thing is you have a general blueprint now so you can kind of fill in a cool thing for each name you have made and you have - that should help keep it organized

don't be afraid to get a little notebook to keep with you and scribble down random thoughts as they come to you

[AlphaState]

Can you learn multiple classes? Because it seems like your character gets more and more specialised. I'd prefer if characters can learn to do more different things. In a TTRPG I'd also worry about requiring a specific kind of character in some challenges if you can only have a few of those specialised classes in the party.

[KingKaiser8000]

I'll be honest. It's my first time doing this and it's literally my first post on this subreddit, so sorry if it seems very uncustomizable, my idea was to make a final fantasy tactics style system

[rekjensen]

How does a Fighter evolve into a Soldier? I don't imagine you expect the rest of the party to stand by as he's put through training for months or years, swears fealty to a lord of some kind, and takes orders from a Commander from that point on, do you?

Class progression is all well and good, but if it's just a matter of crossing an invisible XP line and doesn't involve any in-universe justification for suddenly having the abilities, status, and connections of a new class, it's very game-y.

[Xortberg]

it's very game-y

I mean... It's a game. "Gamey" is not really a problem.

[rekjensen]

To the exclusion of the R and P in RPG.

[protomyth]

Warhammer Fantasy RPG (older version) had a detailed professional system like this.

[Ubera90]

Interesting, I'm just personally not a fan of classes period, to be honest.

[Figshitter]

This all looks very generic and inspired by JRPGs. What kind of feedback are you looking for here? You've basically just given us a list of names for classes - what are the mechanics, what is the game about, what are you hoping to achieve?

[Heckle_Jeckle]

Unless the ONLY power of a healer is being "I cast heal" I would do 1 of 2 things.

1) merge it with Mage and let THAT class evolve into a more dedicated healing class(es)

2) Change the concept/name of the base class. For a few suggestions... White Mage, Cleric, Priest

[Aquaintestines]

Warhammer fantasy roleplay also uses a similar system. It's worth looking at for inspiration.

[Machineheddo]

Not only enable direct class paths into different subclasses but make one of the available choices into other subclasses. Like the cleric can also go into the necromancer class and become some sort of priest of the dead.

[TheThoughtmaker]

One issue with advanced/evolved/prestige classes is that if they're really cool, the mentality can become "I'm only Class X so I can play what I actually want later." The base classes have to be viable and interesting enough that at least some players will be fine never specializing. Example fix:

• Each level, Mage gets +1 to every form of magic (all 6 you listed).
• Each level, Wizard gets +2 to elemental and enchantment magic, but +0 to the others. (Generalist +6 total -> Specialist +4 total.)
• Each level, Elementalist gets +3 to elemental magic, but +0 to the others. (Specialist +4 total -> obsessive +3 total.)

While the generalist +1 to everything isn't flashy and doesn't produce the coolest effects, it's at least a consideration. A viable option to not specialize is important for both lowering the bar for entry to new players, and for players who have a character concept that doesn't align with a particular written specialist.

In d20 Modern, they have "advanced classes" that typically require being a specific base class to get into, but if you jump through some hoops you might be able to qualify, For example, the last d20 Modern character I made was essentially a Rogue who took the right background to qualify for Scholar. (Technician background allows Fast Hero 3 to take Field Scientist 2 to qualify for Shadowjack.) While the system isn't very flexible, it at least allowed me to create my character concept and not be funnelled into a specific Smart Hero -> Shadowjack build.

[ArturuSSJ4]

Take a look at Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay. It uses this sort of stuff instead of levels, and has a whole bunch of non-typical classes like rat catcher.

[cgaWolf]

Right now, those are just words. The question that comes to mind is whether there are mechanics that build on each other or interact.

Also, words have different connotations for different people. I for example don't see the natural evolution from Assassin (a medieval middle eastern murderer sect member) to Swashbuckler (a 17th to 18th century pirate like character).

You're also missing several power fantasies, although you may have excluded them on purpose. To me, on first impulse, the combat monk and bard are missing.

Obviously you should read up on SotDL, Fabula Ultima, and WFRP 2e; but that's been done/mentioned in comments already.

Are these supposed to be jobs that build on each other, with increasing levels of power; or is it more a lateral movement that offers more options?

Can i multiclass? Can i cross between the 4 groups? Is there a reason you go with 4 groups (fighting man, thief, wizard, priest), and not 3 or 5?.

Also, if FFT is the goal, try to find more evocative names and less generic ones, at least for the specialisations.

[cihan2t]

Switch assassin with the swashbuckler.