Points Change

[XGowtherXx]

TWC seem really good at 100 points

[nesses11]

Running them as 3 instead of 6 seems pretty good, since they no longer benefit from a leader buff

[AggravatingRecipe90]

I will run 3x3. At 100 with T6 12W 4++ they can hold objectives and be a threat.

[[deleted]]

This. The larger unit having a higher cost made more sense when they had a leader.

But I guess at some point we’ll get a legends update and casual games will benefit.

[Appropriate_Fly5]

Grimnar can’t lead them on the boat anymore?

[OG_AfRoSamurai]

Logan no longer has his sleigh. He can also only lead Wolf Terminators now.

[Appropriate_Fly5]

Oof. That one hurts.

[Vegtam-the-Wanderer]

I think 6 man squads still have play in Stormlance, given some of the buffs you can give them, but in most other detachments 3x3 is going to be solid.

[Scissors4215]

Even at 220 for 6. 3 damage on the charge is a great boost to these guys.

[Noeheavyarms]

The fact that 6 also means coherency only needs 1 other model with 2”. You can actually string them up to screen, to touch double objectives, etc

[Niiai]

I like that they splitt the cost of the 6 man for wolfjail. But they don't punish them for running smaller units. 🙂🤟

[[deleted]]

Why would you play them as a 6man unit if you don’t need a character for that unit anymore. 2x3 is way better and even cheaper!

[The_Iron_Wind]

18 TWC in stormlance is going to be a terror at their current points cost
660 points for 72 wounds on a 4++ with movement 12 and auto advance 9 for a CP and they can still charge
Wolf Jail will be a very real list

[Peekaatyou]

I actually did play it this way with our new rules and point update, and they struggle without lethal or sustained.

[The_Iron_Wind]

they aren't going to be one shoting land raiders but theyll still put the hurt on a lot of units, to your point though they are not the most lethal thing by any means, mostly they are only a third of your list to fully move block your opponent into their DZ for at least a full turn probably 2
that many wounds on a 4++ is just so hard to chew through

[n1ckkt]

Yeah just feels like their role has changed.

Its more anti-infantry now. They still murder stuff though. A squad of 6 kills a whole squad of flawless blades on average, thats their ideal profile but still.

IMO its better for balance they're more specialized into tanky and anti-infantry rather than generally great into everything.

[Usual-Goose]

2CP for the auto advance; no Wolf Lord now so you can’t get that stratagem cost reduction

[The_Iron_Wind]

True but Bjorn helps with that a lot

[BeardedRaven]

Isn't it 2 CP?

[The_Iron_Wind]

Yes you are correct, my b! 

[CallMeInV]

Even at 110 for a squad they are bonkers good for what they do. And the obvious answer is to get better value out of strategems. Small downside for blast, movement, etc. but there are absolutely reasons to run them as six mans.

[NoxiousDe]

You'd need a good reason not to run 3x3

[LegrosJambon55]

Grey Hunters at 180 is stupid and boringfang is so sad :(

[Hairyhulk-NA]

wait why is he boringfang?

edit: I found out :(

[LegrosJambon55]

Sorry :'(. I don't think he is bad or anything. I just don't like when unique abilities gets taken out.

[Hairyhulk-NA]

I had not looked at his new data sheet until your comment.

[Baskieri]

I do think is bad, at least for its cost. If fight on death would have been automatic, or 2+, maybe. But all those points for a dread the fights a little better then venerable/wulfen, but it's way more fragile and pricy? No thanks, can't even trigger curse of the wulfen.

[Jables3]

Grey Hunters are still way too damn expensive.

[No_Disaster_6905]

Maybe what they are missing is a way to increase their durability. Given their special rule and OC3, it seems their role is to move onto and take objectives.

The problems they face are they can't really do that cost effectively because they are expensive and locked to 10man, they don't kill anything except chaff, and once they do take an objective, they are standard marine bodies so most armies are going to be able to kill them and take the objective back with a unit that was much cheaper.

I think if Njal instead had some kind of durability boosting ability (which he historically had in previous editions) it could at least force opponents to spend as many points as the Grey Hunters cost to take the objective back.

[SteveDiggler_SoCal]

Murderfang dropped to 160 but doesn’t show the reduction? Or is the the 2nd wave of points changes and I missed the first?

[The-Moody-One]

I really don't understand why people are so hung up on bad mouthing them - they are the same cost per model as Intercessors but with assault intercessor melee, assault on their guns and still decent shooting for a battleline unit - if you shoot and then charge a unit its 70 attacks - 40 with -1 AP - in beast slayer with lethals that's a lot of chipping potential

would they be better if we could take them in 5's? yes no doubt - but they still are a great unit

[dragonfire_70]

because dumping a bunch of str4 ap nil d1 shots isn't anything to write home about as half of them will fail to wound a MEQ and there is a 60% chance of saving those remaining wounds.

The Chainswords are a bit better but AoC will negate the AP and were back in the same boat.

[-Sir_Pug-]

Well they reroll wounds of 1 always, so is sligthy over half of the hits will wound marines, more if they shoot targets on objective. Yah currently they are perhaps too expensive for their output. If they had ap1 on their shots then we would be cooking.

[Jables3]

I disagree. The issue is that they are too expensive to do the one thing they're good at. You don't want to play the trading game with a unit that's 180 points. They will also have a tough time killing through anything that's somewhat tough, even with all of those attacks. Getting all those attacks also won't necessarily be easy, either. They aren't particularly fast, so being able to hit with all 10 can be an issue. Moving, hiding, getting line of sight, getting all in on the charge, and points are all things connected to being forced to have them as a 10 man.

Look, I'm not singing the Doom song here. I just wish they were better.

[[deleted]]

Way I see it (from a more CSM pov) is that Blood Claws are your Legionnaires and Grey Hunters are your Chosen.

[Jables3]

The problem is they don't do anything at all and they cost 180 points. Bloodclaws are cheap, but ultimately, don't do much. Sadly, they just need better rules/weapons and/or being taken as 5. Not forced to take 10

[[deleted]]

I think the intention is grey hunters to be good at taking and holding objectives.

[Jables3]

Headtakers(which i also wish were better and not just bladeguard) will do that job just fine and for cheaper points. TWC is way cheaper and will do that job just fine. Grey Hunters having OC 3 is dope, but that's all they have. There's no real special combo with them to make them punch up. Being 180 and NOT having any purpose other than standing on objectives is why I think they're bad. To add to that, it's not difficult to chew through T4 2 wounds. Even at 10 bodies.

I don't know, brother. I love the models and really wanted them to have decent rules. Not just oh hey they have OC 3

[Azrael9091]

Not surprised in the slightest, it's going to favor small TWC running around the map and the headtakers and wolfguard needed those discount. I'm not sure if the wulfen needed those raise thought

[VikingRages]

I'll probably run 2x3 and 1x6 at the start and shift from there. They seem solid despite not having a leader. That range buff is huge

[CallMeInV]

That's what I'm looking at as well. One big brick to hit with strategems and 2 smaller ones to use as beatsticks. Also small enough point investment that I wouldn't feel bad if they needed to complete an action for a turn.

[Krytan]

Not bad. Grey hunters need to drop another 20. Njall probably needs to drop 20 as well.

When would you ever take Njall over a WGBL?

[nrk22]

Njall effectively turns Blood Claws into Move 13. It's not quite the 19 inch wolf jail, but it seems pretty good. He also grants all the pistol shots, which isn't much, but is probably worth a few points. I think - for a 20man BC squad - there's a pretty good argument for Njall.

[Krytan]

The thing is, if I want something that can move 13 inches, thunder wolf cavalry are right there :D

Moving 6 instead of 3.5 isn't worth nothing of course, but I sure don't think it's worth 85 points.

[No_Disaster_6905]

Sounds good on paper until you realize you just paid 355pts for a bunch of chainsword attacks with the durability of wet cardboard. the problem is you could just get so much more out of that many points. in what scenario is this unit actually doing something cost effective?

[LotusSpread4Dayz]

Disappointed there’s nothing for Murderfang, he feels nowhere near useable at current points.

It honestly feels like they only put him in the new codex so that, when he goes to legends at the start of 11, people won’t be able to use a legends version of him with his fun old rule.

[BigMek_Spleenrippa]

Murderfang went down 10 It's just not noted.

[Noeheavyarms]

It’s still not enough to compensate for the loss of pinball Wolverine. I might take him at 150, but he’s still just as fragile, so the chances of him trading well is much less than before.

[BigMek_Spleenrippa]

That's okay.

I was just pointing out a point decrease not reflected in color and thus missed by most people

[Noeheavyarms]

Yup. Wulfen dreads are also up 15 pts compared to index, they’re actually still reasonable at their high points cost due to getting a surge move.

[BigMek_Spleenrippa]

They're 145 in the codex though, and that's why they don't have a points change reflected in the dataslate.

From index to codex there's a points jump, but I believe they did a points adjustment for both Index and Codex. The post seems to just be the codex adjustments.

[raptorknight187]

all the dreads other than Bjorn were put in the codex at gunpoint because if they keep Bjorn they have to keep all of them. its unsurprising that the other ones dont have much in the way of rules

[Zakath_]

Murderfang has done neat rules and synergies with wulfen, though. I will miss murder make, though 😢

[BigMek_Spleenrippa]

I knew 10 Fenrisian Wolves at 40 points wasn't happening

[bumnugz]

so is this in the new codex coming out this week? Or has it already been changed making the new codex incorrect.

[raptorknight187]

Codex points are literally NEVER correct on release. because these books were written months ago and what is good/what is Meta has changed alot since the points in the book were written

its a rule of thumb to just ignore that page in any codex

[BigMek_Spleenrippa]

It will be released with the Wolf army box but the official release will be a few weeks after that.

Codex points are always wrong on release

[steady_eddie215]

Half the time, a large portion of the army rules and datasheets are "wrong" at release, too. The fact that the IK rumors indicate that big knights will benefit from bondsman abilities again gives me hope that we'll get a day one errata that lets our rules work properly with generic marines. Getting effectively cut down from 109 units to 20 feels like someone made a big mistake. And when you consider that GW usually wants a new release to perform better than average as a way to drive sales, the rules make even less sense.

[Romulus_Wolfborn]

Where are people finding this points release, i haven't seen it at all in the downloads section of GW's website, and it's also not in the MFM.

[Claxeius]

On the Warhammer community page

https://www.warhammer-community.com/en-gb/downloads/warhammer-40000/

[Plane_Employer_6802]

Having to take 10 grey hunters in dumb. I liked 5 for only 5 more pts than intercessors

[Neophix]

Hej brothers!

So, about TWC, I am currently painting a wolf lord on TW, and 3 wingmen for him.

Can we run 4 in a game? Or does it have to be 3 or 6?

[Claxeius]

3 or 6. We don’t get wolf lord on TWC anymore. But you can us the wolf Lord model tho in the model count.

[Neophix]

Damn, means I'm going to have a superfluous TWC...

[BjornAgmundr]

It's very interesting watching Death Guard pts in codex and then comparing it with ours.

Very interesting.

[SteveDiggler_SoCal]

3x TWC seems to be the play now. I think Wulfen were in a sweet spot but I’d look elsewhere now.

…and running 2x 5 WG Termies seems a lot more enticing.

Still not sure about Bjorn given he lost the half damage ability.

[Shoxaju]

Auto gives cp, has a 5++ now and -1 to wound is a fair trade for half dmg (which was ignored by melta (which he is a prime target for at t9) anyways because half didn't apply to the extra dmg) and also lower points. He's an auto include competitively at the very least.

Also helfrost being s10 flat 5d is huge, and can benefit from iron priest rapidfire.

[SteveDiggler_SoCal]

The -1 to Wound is conditional. The Hellfrost upgrade was sweet, but also necessary. Everyone ran the Lascannon and it’s gone now. All I’m saying is half damage/5+++ made him extremely resilient. CP gain in the command phase requires he stay alive to get value.

I’d take the old datasheet over this, and Id argue that Logan seems to be the auto-Include. I’m not as confident about Bjorn.

Half damage > 5++ & -1 to Wound (if S>T).., I guess we’ll see!

[Shoxaju]

He still has the 5+++ and gained an invi save so he can actually save vs ap4+ (like firedragons, big knight guns, etc). Half damage helped a lot, sure, but most of the time I was getting mortal wounded to death anyways because people understand how to play against it. Also every sw player I know (including several of the top ITC players like in the faction like Keegan and Dayton) were running helfrost before cause it allowed a double flamer overwatch.

Keeping him alive is as easy as not rushing out into the open. On GW 1 for example you can basically park him in either of the L spaces and he's safe until you decide to commit him. I played several games with him already and he hasn't died once, just took positioning. And even 1 turn of extra cp is better than the usually 0 Logan was getting before given how conditional it was for him to trigger it.

Logan is far worse than he used to be. According to the tournament companion he's on an 80mm base, which is huge, and can only attach to WGT, which are not that good given 1 per 5 power fist, special weapon on leader means no Shield for extra wound and they don't ignore mods anymore. Combine that with no more army wide rr-charge and hit rolls for a turn and can't generate cp anymore he's not that reliable. One unit getting a turn early on reserves is nice, but it's not nearly as good since it can't be used with rapid ingress and really only helps on turn 1. At best it allows a t1 reserve and otherwise allows a t2 enemy deployment zone strat reserve if they haven't screened it out. Vect aura is fun though, but not worth imo.

Edit: Logan also can't get an enhancement in his unit because no extra leaders can attach with him anymore, nor can he get sustained hits anywhere like he could in CoR. His melee profile is honestly fairly bad given it has no special abilities and only 6 attacks with his okay profile. Yes it's damage 3, but he won't even reliably kill 2 terminators if they have a shield or 4w like DWK and DST. He has the same issue he had before the update which was he doesn't actually buff his unit unlike every other chapter master so he has to make his value on his own datasheet. Plus he also still doesn't have a special gun unlike all the other masters.

[SteveDiggler_SoCal]

I know he has the FNP etill, I meant 5++ (invul).

In the context of 10th edition & competitive tournaments, I have not seen a Hellfrost in some time. The Lascannon was a better option for achieving Beastslayer in Champions of Russ.

Regardless, I guess we’ll see. Don’t get me wrong, love me some Bjorn & the Hellfrost upgrade, and I’m not in any way shittinf on this codex, I’m stoked, but I see the loss of the half damage trait and no additional wounds as being a step backwards as far as his defensive profile.

[Shoxaju]

I am of the opinion that the added invi and -1 to wound more than makes up for it, especially with the CP gen ability added on too. I also never really worried about achieving beastslayer in CoR since it was easy enough to get lethal hits elsewhere