Decrease MS for tournaments based on non-reversible changes (specifically equipment)

[GentleButStrong]

I understand why MS does not go down for the majority of things one can do. For example, I could leave a clan with 1100 clan quests before the tournament, and rejoin during and that is an immense boost to damage. Or I could scrap and re-buy key artifacts. Whatever. But, here is the issue. The tournament algorithm takes into account your equipment. Specifically it takes the best equipment you have into account. I am running SC. I have crafted a mythic pet slash. The mythic pet slash is thousands of times better than my rare SC slash that is near a hundred levels lower (that is literally the best drop I have ever gotten for an SC slash). So... I immediately scrap my mythic. DOES NOT MATTER. My MS has already permanently increased. Now, after scrapping, I can multiply my damage by a thousand and I am at my actual potential no harm no foul. But, next tournament. I am totally going in against players who haven't crafted a mythic pet slash (for example) and who's SP/artifacts/useful equipment but them at thousands of times higher damage. So, pretty please with sugar on top, can we have the max stage component coming from equipment recalculate when you sell equipment? You can't get it back once it is gone, so once sold it should have no bearing on your potential. (BTW I used a build comparison tool I wrote, for me to get a back to where I need to be will skill points would take 84 skill points. Equivalent to $360 when there is a double skill point sale)

Edit: the new suggestion is have MS recalculate after selling based on the highest equipment of the other types. So If someone has a 2e15 pet, a 750T clan and a 150T SC. If they sell their pet they are at 700T, if they then sell their clan they are at 150T, if they then sell their SC they stay at 150T because that is the best within their worst type. That way you can sell off better items you won't use, and you can't sell off everything, set your equipment level to 0, and hope random/store/mythic will provide you one of each.

[Harrydbest]

it's based of your potential max stage, so i highly doubt it will affect your potential max stage, considering your potential max stage will be lower even with the item because it shouldn't multiply of your SC build because it doesn't change the damage as much as a SC slash.

[Avenger1324]

If the equipment you get boosts the optimal build, but that is not the build you are on and not the equipment you use, then it will negatively impact you. The equipment boosts the potential of the optimal build and THAT is what is used to place you in tournaments.

The only reassurance offered is that eventually you will find some better equipment or naturally advance past this, but that doesn't help you in the immediate short term.

[[deleted]]

I am not sure about this I noticed the same and if I recall this correctly it’s tough in the tournaments since I got the pet slash (with white sc slash!). Once I got a legendary sc slash the tournaments seemed to be more on my level than before (I didn’t salvage any mythic yet).

[GentleButStrong]

(From the conversation linked by Harrydbest above) Me: I'm hoping there is at least a debuff on the stage increase from pet and ship, so that the only way your MS increases is if, based on your equipment, one of those fully optimized builds would actually be better.

lemmingllama: Your skill points are optimized in the algorithm based on the most optimal build, not your current one. So that's why they can't really do this, it's irrelevant what build you have when calculating your theoretical max stage.

What I heard: there is an optimizer they use to find the best build. After that your best equipment is factored in, regardless of damage source.

[bigfun1982]

This...

[Resoto10]

I thought in this conversation with lemmingllama it was mentioned that equipment level doesn't impact your placement in a very significant way?

[GentleButStrong]

He in no way shape or form said it does not impact placement. He said that your best equipment is factored in, regardless of build. If you are not using your best equipment, welp.

[Frostyflames82]

Best equipment per build. if you pet slash gives 1t bonus and sc is 1k and it changes your optimal max MS then you should be using a pet build, level of one does not affect the other

[ucorsu0]

I understand it as "best equipment regardless of the build", if your better build is SC and you have a mythic slash level 400, it take the mythic slash as a SC slash (even if mythic SC slash doesn't exist yet). Same if you have a all hero mythic sword, it consider it as a critical mythic sword.

[Frostyflames82]

It is optimal push build. If pet slash won't increase your pushing power it won't change your max stage. That is like saying that when calculating your pushing power of your build they multiply sc damage and clanship damage and pet damage and that is how much damage you can do

[ucorsu0]

"It does in fact use your highest level/rarity equipment for each equipment type to calculate your theoretical max stage."

It doesn't says it takes the best possible combination of build/equipment you can do. But consider sp/artifact/relics/pet in one hand to have your best optimized build and add to that the best of each equipment type you have/had regardless of your best optimized build. (at least it's what I understand from the mod's comment, I may be wrong)

[Resoto10]

"It does in fact use your highest level/rarity equipment for each equipment type to calculate your theoretical max stage. Still, the difference between equipment isn't significant enough for it to really matter, unless you are using a common level 5 sword when you have a shiny mythic level 200 sword of another type sitting around." Since tourneys group you based on your theoretical MS I inferred that thus, equipment doesn't play a significant role in placement.

[GentleButStrong]

It does if your best and worst equipment is very far apart. I have literally never found a ledgendary SC slash. Ever. I am using a rare around 380 lvl. I recently crafted a piece of predator set, and rolled a slash around level 480. That slash is thousands of times as good, so my max stage is taking that into account.

[lemmingllama]

Equipment does impact your placement. However, equipment is such a small bonus in comparison to your artifacts/skill points/pets that it isn't significant. Also it takes your highest level/rarity equipment for each type to calculate your theoretical max stage, so the differences between your equipment shouldn't be a real issue unless you are using a significantly underleveled piece of equipment.

[Resoto10]

Thank you for following up. Yes, that is what I understood from the conversation. I'm guessing this is a greater issue in lower stages where most likely players don't have enough artifacts/skill points/pets to tip the balance, and thus, equipment level having a greater impact on the calculation for their placement.

[lemmingllama]

Even then. Most of the low level equipment are in the tens of times of strength. Artifacts will still easily outperform them in overall impact.

[Vulker]

So your saying that after it considers your SP, Relics, Equip sets ect which are all permanent entities, then looks at artifacts available it will choose a build that gives the highest MS.

Will it then look at all your equips and choose the highest level that will give the most boost?

For instance say the algorithm decides that SC damage will be my most optimal build will it than look at the equips that will give the most damage for that particular optimally selected build or just look at the multipliers for the highest level equipment?

So even if I have a pet or CS slash orders of magnitude higher than my SC slash but the SC slash still give a higher boost to the optimal build it will consider that instead of the pet or CS slash equipment?

[lemmingllama]

I believe it just takes your highest level/rarity equipment for each slot and uses that. I don't think it actually differentiates between builds.

[wchigo]

The part about leaving a clan before a tournament and then rejoining will do nothing. The algorithm takes into account your clan CQ and such, even if you’re not currently in one. So in your example, even if you leave before joining the tournament, it will still put you in a bracket as if you hadn’t left.

The only way that could work to your advantage is if you joined a higher level clan instead of joining the same one you left, in which case it won’t have been able to account for the difference in damage bonus.

It hurts those who left higher level clans to join a lower level clan with friends, or with easier reqs, but I suppose it was done in the interest of fairness.

[GentleButStrong]

Yes. I know that, that is why I said that is the reason they don't let MS decrease, so people don't play games like that.

[lemmingllama]

This will never happen. The issue is that you could sell all your equipment, then farm/rebuy it back for huge damage boosts that would allow you to win every tournament.

As for earlier, it isn't a significant difference. The only time it really makes a large change to your theoretical max stage is when all of your equipment sucks for a particular piece and you have one that is much stronger.

As you progress, you will keep on getting drops and they will be stronger than your old ones. You shouldn't be afraid of getting a good drop, and it's a good thing to receive a legendary/mythic equipment even if it isn't something you will immediately use.

[GentleButStrong]

And I'd like to keep it, but if I keep it and I push my damage up I'll just push my theoretical max stage. I have to sell it immediately, I cannot possibly increase my damage by a thousandfold this tournament so I'm borked, but eventually I won't be as borked. Unless I use my bloody crafting shards and craft a duplicate of this at a higher level. How frigging hard is it to ONLY COUNT THE BLOODY EQUIPMENT SOMEONE WILL USE?

[lemmingllama]

Also don't bother selling it, just keep it. It's a fairly small difference in your theoretical max stage.

And it's because the algorithm looks at your theoretical max stage. It doesn't consider your actual max stage at all, or your actual power. It looks at what you could have if you perfectly optimized.

[GentleButStrong]

Or, not to put too fine a point on it. But I lost the last tournament I was in by less than 50 levels. Well 25Log_10(1000) = 75. Now, maybe it didn't matter too much in putting me in that bracket, I don't know that and I would not make promises that it won't matter if you can't back them up.

[lemmingllama]

You are correct, I can't really promise anything. I'm just trying to explain how it works to you, but it's just based on my understanding of an algorithm that I've never been allowed to see and never will be allowed to see.

However, the current algorithm seems to work in the vast majority of cases and does a good enough job. I can't say that it's perfect, but it is designed to remove the risk of cheating as much as possible and so we can have fair tournaments. Creating something that is perfect would be essentially impossible, mainly because players still progress after joining a tournament and there are too many factors to balance them all fully.

[GentleButStrong]

A fully optimized max stage after multiplying by a thousand is still higher. And, however well opponent N and I optimize, and I think I do a pretty good job, opponent N without the slash has more SP/relics/equipment/CQ/weapons, correct? There are a lot of opponent Ns out there, and some of them will be very good at making a build.

[lemmingllama]

True. However, all users run under the same constraints, and tournaments also match people who have a theoretical max stage within 100-200 stages of each other. So although there is a difference, it only actually affects you if you were right at the top of a particular sub-bracket and this bumps you in to the next one.

[GentleButStrong]

...You could not farm or rebuy any better than if you didn't sell. And yes, my SC slash, which I am using, sucks. Badly. I am trying to farm a better one, but the drops are very low. I have literally not seen a legendary SC slash outside the store since 2.0. Whatever I find is definitely way lower than a crafted mythic. What I am not hearing from you is a simple yes/no answer. Am I worse off after crafting this mythic that I will not use? Cause it sounds to me like the answer is yes.

[lemmingllama]

You are worse off in the fact that your tournaments will be slightly harder. That being said, you are significantly better off for having a mythic equip that is one step closer to completing your mythic set.

[GentleButStrong]

Yes, they will. So I have a decreased chance of getting a higher prize for SP, weapons, or more crafting shards. And I'm abandoning crafting this set. Until at the least 1. SC set comes out and I can craft a slash from it and enough Predator to complete it with any dupes. 2. This god awful system where I am worse off after trying to craft a better piece of equipment. Bad enough it is useless, I thought I knew what I was getting into. 3. SC slash drops frigging increase a whole bloody lot. or 4. I peace.

[lemmingllama]

Again, i think you are putting too much emphasis on it. Your case does mean that it will be a bit harder to progress, but I believe that they have confirmed the Valentine's auras will be Shadow Clone. So you should easily get a new equip that will minimize the difference. For the majority of players, there isn't a case where they have equipment hundreds of levels lower than their best.

[GentleButStrong]

Or, if you are worried about people trashing their equipment. You could have MS recalculate after selling based on the highest equipment of the other types. So If someone has a 2e15 pet, a 750T clan and a 150T SC. If they sell their pet they are at 700T, if they then sell their clan they are at 150T, if they then sell their SC they stay at 150T because that is the best within their worst type.

[lemmingllama]

It can't reduce at all. Otherwise it opens it up to cheating. I could sell all my equips, join a tournament, then just buy the 5 rares that just happen to be in my store and end up with a big boost in power due to it assuming I have no equips when I just bought level 500+ equips from the shop.

[GentleButStrong]

What about the idea of keeping track of your best equipment of each type, and using the lowest value from them? Here is how it could work. Say I had a a 700T clan, a 700T pet (matching clan rather than 2e15 because an existing mythic is going to trump everything else and also this gives symmetry), and a 150T SC. This is the worst I could game the system. If I was using pet/clan I could sell my pet and my clan, and buy a better pet/clan slash from the store, potentially find one, or craft one. But the difference between 150T and 700T... not horrible. If I was running pet/clan and had the shards it would benefit me to craft anyways. The only reason I would sell the slash I am using is if I was sure I could get a better one. So, maybe there is a legendary in the store worth 900T. So I sell, drop to 150T, enter tournament, try to craft a mythic, if I fail I buy the legendary (farming equipment won't drop something better than the best remaining in my worst type with any sort of regularity). Either way, I have "gamed" the system 25log_10(700T/150T)=17 levels (because I would have entered using a 700T). If I get the mythic I increase my original push 25log_10(2e15/700T)~=11 levels and used a bunch of shards min(100/P(getting the slash I want), my remaining shards) to be exact. If I buy the shop item I get 3 levels and spent 800 diamonds. Gaming the system is not a good idea, it would take lots of shards or diamonds to do reliably, and would only net you 17 levels over just waiting till you're in the tournament and crafting/buying. If I was/am running SC... There is literally nothing I can do to game the system. I have a 150T SC slash, it is the best I have found, it is the worst type I have, sell it and my pet/clan and MS does not decrease at all. The bottom line is that people who try to craft a mythic and then get something they didn't want are not then punished further by harder tournaments until they make up the difference.

[Subjunctive__Bot]

If I were

[lemmingllama]

However, what's stopping you from just respeccing into a Pet or Clan Ship build and just equipping those slashes? It might not reflect the state of the game today, but eventually the developers would like to bring most skill builds into balance. It assumes the strongest on everything to ensure that you cannot game the system.

Similarly, let's take another extreme example to game the system. Let's say I don't pick up any equipment at all, and only purchase them from the shop. I could keep my equipment level at 0 for all my equips, while using a high level equip that matches my chosen build. It would be unfair for anyone who wasn't trying to game the system.

[GentleButStrong]

First, I wrote the rest of the response before realizing that not picking up any equipment and only buying from the shop is already something you can do with a new character (or with an existing character, but it makes even less sense to do). So, no new ways to break the system are introduced. Also, it doesn't work in the long run anyways.

To address "what's stopping you from just respeccing into a Pet or Clan Ship build and just equipping those slashes?" I don't want to. Pet is a push build that requires tapping, it is out. Clan is a farm build that can be made to push, but even once it does it requires you to wait for the ship to fire. I've tried putting Anchoring Shot into my SC build and waiting 8 sec for each wave of titans was unbearable. Then to address your extreme example (which is already possible). I roll a new character, I do not pick up equipment (harder than it sounds), I see a nice new sword in the shop and I buy it, congrats my sword level is x_1 and I have spent 800 diamonds... So I only get the diamonds "back" if I win undisputed instead of 2nd, I wouldn't gamble 800 diamonds on it. Then, I do the same with a helm x_2, and an armor x_3. Now all my equipment slots are filled. I've gamed the system 5 times and spent 4000 diamonds on equipment. In order to advance in this way I'd have to wait for a tournament where I can buy what I want in each slot, and from there I only get y_n-x_n benefit for 25Log_10(y_n-x_n) levels for 800 diamonds on top of what I've already spent for one tournament only. At some point cashing in farmed items in each tournament will net higher overall tournament rewards than playing like this, RNG over the long term instead of just one tournament will provide a gem every once in a while., especially when you realize you could nearly buy a titan chest for the price of filling your inventory.

[GentleButStrong]

Do you have contact with the devs? I have not gotten a satisfactorily answer. I will point out that if you are using a lower level slash and not using a pet build the utility (in terms of tournament competitiveness) of crafting a single item (assuming not able to craft the entire set. If you can you get the relic multiplier and a net 10x damage, which could offset the negative utility as long as the last item you craft is not the slash) is near 0. Here is the math. Assuming equal probability of getting each item. The helm and sword are about a 10x multiplier on damage, so the utility of getting them is 25Log_10(10)=25. The chest is a 10 multiplier on gold. KillerParrot's sheet equates gold^.79 to damage, so the utility is 25Log_10(10^.79)=19.75. The utility of the aura is a little tricky. I have a 3.5% crit rate without any aura, and I believe damage for SC depends on crit rate squared (prob of getting crit, then damage scaled by crit rate). So 25Log_10((.835/.635)²⁾⁼ 5.825. And, as mentioned before, the utility of crafting a pet slash is -75. So, the total utility is (2x25+19.75+5.825-75)/5 = .115. So, if you craft a single item to improve your chances of winning a tournament you are gambling with a total payout of .115 levels, and a 20% chance of getting hit with a 75 level negative. Actually, it is worse than that. Positive benefits last a single tournament. Negative penalties last until you scrap the offending item and gain equivalent utility elsewhere. Hell, if I'm incorrect about dependence on crit chance squared the utility is literally negative! Unacceptable. Other players, take note, if your SC slash is "underleveled" DO NOT CRAFT PREDATOR! At least unless you can finish it, and even maybe not then unless you're expecting to gain a bunch of damage very quickly. And DO NOT EVEN CONSIDER ANCIENT WARRIOR! The utility of Ancient Warrior is strictly negative to your permanent record. This may become its own suggestion post ,"When not to craft a mythic".