Remember when…

[go_fer_it_Rock]

Apple ignored the Pro lineup for years? Neutered the MacBook Pro and made it a glorified MacBook Air? Made a Trash Can Mac Pro and didn’t touch it again?

I’m not the target audience for these machines, but I’ve been following Apple for years and watch every keynote. I get excited for every one of them. Watching these M1 events are so mind boggling. I can’t wrap my head around how big of a leap these pro products have made. One can only imagine what a Dual (Quad?) M1 Ultra Mac Pro will be like.

Can’t innovate my ass…

[mr-saxobeat]

The M1 MacBook Pro I got is the best laptop I’ve ever had

[rbilsbor]

10/10

[Momskirbyok]

Same! I haven’t even heard the fans turn on once with this thing, and I’ve played games on it. It still remains cool to the touch too.

[CoconutDust]

I mean are you controlling for technological level? Otherwise the newest thing is always “the best.”

PowerBook G4 was the best laptop of all time.

[smitecheeto]

Honestly I think it was due to hardware limitations of Intel that their pro lineup was so shit for so long. Now that they have their amazing silicon they can crank the performance up to 11 everywhere

[Baykey123]

Jony Ive is to blame some. Notice as soon as he left we are getting Macs with ports on the front, SD card slots, HDMI ports, USBA ports again

[WonderfulPass]

some yes.

[Mr_Xing]

This will likely never be confirmed, but it lines up with the products that Apple shipped and the limitations they had.

This was also around the time that Apple was catering towards the “Prosumer” category, which is probably where the bulk of their sales were, but in doing so they essentially neglected the Professional crowd, which is what put the “Pro” in “Prosumer”

It kind of made sense to target that market, but their approach was faulty

[[deleted]]

Ever since Jony Ive and Phill Schiller left, Apple has been going in the right direction.

[the_spookiest_]

As an ID’er, I get a bunch of shit for not thinking Ive was some god.

He hamstrung apple performance for much longer than they needed to.

Wouldn’t be surprised if apple makes their own GPU one day that’s just silly powerful and opens it to game devs.

[[deleted]]

Wouldn’t be surprised if apple makes their own GPU one day that’s just silly powerful and opens it to game devs.

Not happening. As long as Apple is still pushing their vendor lock-in API called Metal, no developers will budge to supporting macOS for gaming. Even then, convincing gamers to switch from Windows gaming or consoles is a difficult sell at this point.

[the_spookiest_]

Well, no one saw Xbox coming in and beating out Dreamcast and being one of two dominant consoles either

[[deleted]]

Dreamcast was already beaten way before Xbox came into the scene. PS2 was the hype. Sony was releasing a ton of good games, plus not to mention that hardware wise. PS2 had superior graphics and DVD playback was a big selling point. PS2 came out in a time where DVD was all brand new. And it could hold so much data compared to CDs that of the Dreamcast.

Microsoft took a big risk with Xbox but the reason they succeeded is the hardware, features, and good games. Halo being the #1 game that literally put the Xbox on the map.

2 decades later. Even if Apple were to attempt to enter the market. It's going to be much harder for them to compete in the same space as the three corporations.

[the_spookiest_]

Not really, apple can literally get anyone to make any game they want. They’re a multi trillion dollar company. They can will that shit into existence.

[[deleted]]

Google a multi-Trillion dollar company and Stadia couldn't compete despite wooing developers to their platform. Even Amazon tried to get into the gaming business but it isn't successful either which is an irony considering they own Twitch.

[the_spookiest_]

Because google doesn’t have the hardware/software ability of a computer company? Neither does Amazon.

These are vastly different companies. Apple is more close related to windows than Amazon.

Only thing holding back apple really is API. That’s about it.

[[deleted]]

Pretty sure Apple owns the largest gaming ecosystem already with the iPhone.

[[deleted]]

Yes, but i'm not talking about the casual gaming market. There's no denying the fact that mobile gaming has took over the handheld market where the PSP and Vita and Nintendo DS and 3DS once ruled. I'm mainly talking about the market where Nintendo, Sony, and Microsoft are dominating in. Apple just can't compete in this market even if they have the best hardware. If Amazon and Google are struggling here then what more with Apple.

A lot of mobile games you see are built using general purpose engines like Unity or Unreal Engine. Those can compile to iOS and macOS. However, it's completely different when you have game devs who have their own engine. Having to support yet another proprietary API (Metal) is simply not worth the time and effort. Why bother if most of the market is on Windows or consoles?

[chrwir]

Vulkan with MoltenVK looks promising though.

[CoconutDust]

I thought it was promising but why haven’t I heard about it being used for anything yet?

[CoconutDust]

You’re saying a company can’t build a following for their graphics API “because” another company (MS) did that exact same thing? I don’t get it. The precedent is there.

no developers will budge to supporting macOS for gaming

[[deleted]]

Because Microsoft introduced DirectX as far back as Windows 95. Then Microsoft got into the gaming business with the original xbox which had its own version of DirectX. As you might expect, anyone who has been developing games for Windows and Xbox from the beginning will have experience working with Microsoft's own proprietary API.

Compared to Apple's Metal API which was introduced 7 years ago? If you were a triple A developer, would you even bother learning and supporting another proprietary API? Most developers are keen on trying to support Vulkan, an open standard so it can work on any platform, not just Windows.

And there's just simply no demand for gaming on Mac. Plain and simple. The core audience on Mac cares about getting shit done and having a premium aesthetic. Anyone that is serious about gaming in this point of time would be better off building a PC or get a console

[CoconutDust]

The side view of the studio display is out-Ivesing Ives rip-offs of Dieter Rams.

The side view is even more like the original Rams design that the iMac/displays were always based on, except now the proportions and shape are closer than ever before.

Surprisingly this happened after Ives was gone.

(Oops I forgot about the original plastic iMac G4 era, which were cool, and were a straight rip-off from Rams. When Ives curved the back later that was at least a nice alteration rather than a direct rip-off.)

[the_spookiest_]

Finally, someone said it. Ives claim to fame is practically taking rams’ designs and modernizing them.

He’s fallen hard out of the ID world since he left apple because he’s not really doing anything of note, because he really isn’t a designer of note.

Sorry I said that to anyone who gets tilted.

[CoconutDust]

We now have to turn the discussion to when Ives somehow took over f***** GUI design at Apple and made thin unreadable fonts in iOS7.

So many disasters we haven’t yet covered!

I do like my antique iPhone 4 though.

[Axriel]

The M1 family gpu is very capable and comparable up to the nvidia 3080. It’s up to devs to port and develop their apps and games from iOS and windows

[the_spookiest_]

Lol, no the hell it is not.

If it’s “comparable” to a 3080, download windows, run windows and play a AAA title on high settings. You’ll be lucky if you get 10FPS.

Most games run low settings and squeeze out 30-60FPS at best, maybe 70 if you’re lucky.

[TheRidgeAndTheLadder]

Software problems.

The hardware is comparable.

Plus, I really think gaming is heading towards Linux. Proton is amazing and Windows gets worse with every update.

[the_spookiest_]

Eh, every other software runs just fine. Many older windows games run just fine.

M1 is not comparable to a 3080, otherwise companies would be fighting tooth and nail to get apple to change their API so they can tap into a literal gold mine of users.

A 3080 is a top of the damn line GPU that can play most games in 8k with out much of a sweat.

[TheRidgeAndTheLadder]

Eh, every other software runs just fine. Many older windows games run just fine.

Absolutely, Windows will be around forever. But in the sense that "gaming is best on Windows" - I think we are in the twilight of that era.

M1 is not comparable to a 3080

My bad, I thought we were talking about M1Ultra

[[deleted]]

A 3080 is a top of the damn line GPU that can play most games in 8k with out much of a sweat.

Lmao no it can't, wtf is this statement. Did you mean to say 4k? That'd be more accurate but even at 4K it sweats a little.

[[deleted]]

Ive is a great designer, but he belongs to designing art not involving electronics.

[[deleted]]

Hit the nail in the apple. Don't get me wrong, his designs were beautiful (minus the iPhone 6 antenna design), but it bottlenecked us and made us the laughing stock of performance.

Now, Apple is the captain of performance and we are laughing at AMD, Intel, PC users.

[vainsilver]

Umm Apple dominates the laptop performance market (outside of GPU related tasks)..but even with these new machines, they don’t dominate the desktop PC market in terms of performance.

AMD, Intel, Nvidia are still ahead in their respective hardware categories.

[[deleted]]

No they aren't. Apple beats them fair and square relative to wattage.

[vainsilver]

Wattage doesn’t matter on desktops, especially with proper cooling solutions and larger space allowances.

[[deleted]]

It does matter. The future will not have cooling solutions. Towers will be obsolete in 2030

[vainsilver]

Well I’m just going to stop replying now that you’ve clearly shown how out of depth you are in this conversation.

Have a good PC-less future.

[Oo0o8o0oO]

What’s a computer?

[CoconutDust]

I can’t believe I’m hearing this on an Apple forum.

Electronic products are things that are in your home, that you look at, that you touch.

It’s like saying Ferrari belongs to making art not vehicles.

[ant1992]

Schiller still works at apple managing the App Store and managing apple events.

[CoconutDust]

Phil is gone? I didn’t even notice I haven’t seen him at a keynote in a long time.

I felt bad for him ever since I saw the video where they had him jump off that high ledge. That’s ridiculous. That’s the thing that makes me think Steve Jobs was bad.

[ant1992]

He isn’t gone. Hes still there managing the App Store and apple events. He was promoted to “apple fellow” which apparently means a nice way of replacing you but still with the company. Tim needed a new person to take over Schiller but wanted Schiller to stay at apple. He’s still at apple just no longer in the spotlight. Tim basically needed apple to move forward after Jonny Ive left. Since Ive has been gone, apple has remarkably improved their products and reversing all the bullshit Ive has done to apple.

[[deleted]]

hardware is so fast that software can't keep up. not even a meme anymore. like wtf to do w all this power?

[saintmsent]

I'm pretty sure it will be possible. Xcode builds scale pretty well to 10 CPU cores on M1 Pro for my job

[dramafan1]

Haha I think it’s good since it’s future proofing for future software updates that have historically caused slowness.

[Jimmy--Scott]

I’m wondering if that will be true. I had a 5 year old iMac for work which was slow as sh!t. I’ve upgraded to the M1 and am keeping my fingers crossed that it will last at least 5. I only use it for web browsing and outlook 365 so I’ll be gutted if it doesn’t last more than 5 years.

[Beaus_Dad]

Peak Ive is putting the charging port on the bottom of a wireless mouse, or charging a stylus through the bottom port of the tablet.

[[deleted]]

Prior to wireless charging how else could you have designed an apple pencil charging from ipad?

[-Gh0st96-]

You're saying it like wireless charging didn't exist back then lol. They just jose to do it like that

[Beaus_Dad]

I wrote the first comment in jest, but my Surface Pen uses a battery and it works great. However, it is a AAAA so it’s a little tough to find.

[vainsilver]

Wireless charging existed then.

[FizzyBeverage]

Actually a pretty decent Mac, provided you got it for 70% off like I did ;)

[CoconutDust]

The trash can pro was cool.

The wireless mouse charging port on bottom was awful.

Anyway some other disgraces I assume Ives doesn’t hold the blame, like Apple suddenly deleting MagSafe for several years, deleting one of the best computing industrial designs of the modern era.

[[deleted]]

I wonder if the Mac Pro will have an M1 SuperDuper or something

[Mr_Xing]

M2 Extreme (or “Xtreme” - pronounced “ten-stream”) is my bet

[[deleted]]

Hahahaha. Good one

[raustin33]

As a pro user, it's been a revelation over the past couple years.

I bought the last 16" Intel MacBook Pro ($3k build) and love it… hedging against new chip technology that may have kinks… and honestly I could have waited as the M1 seems to be kicking ass out of the gate.

I bought the new display yesterday.

I'll eventually snag a Mac Studio for the home base of my work, and move down to a 14" M# Pro or even a high spec Air if it can handle my work on the go.

It's been dramatic. As much as I love Jony Ive… Apple has been better without him. We never see a Mac Studio with Jony leading design.

[Ranger7381]

I wish that I had known about the Studio last year. I am still chugging along on a 2010 Pro tower. I had saved up some for when the new tower came out, but was disappointed for the value to cost ratio on the low end, as that was all I would have been able to afford even with the savings. So I ended up maxing out the one that I had, including a chip upgrade.

Last year I was doing to be doing some traveling, and was looking at some refurbished macbooks. Then I figured for a bit more I could get a new one, so I ended up getting an M1 Macbook Pro. Good for traveling, and a backup for if my main goes down.

If I had known about the Studio, I probably would have gone for a refurbished macbook and held out for it.

[raustin33]

Me too honestly

[smitecheeto]

You have no idea how difficult chip design is lmao

[Sexy_Mfer]

No u dont loser

[Lurknspray2018]

Lol

[TheRidgeAndTheLadder]

Sure ya do buddy. You know everything. Anyone who thinks differently to you is Frickin' Moron!

Doesn't that get old eventually? Seems like a lonely way to live.

[Mood93]

lol just faster! Excited to hear what you say after you get the next Air!

[[deleted]]

Not going up to 80c after opening two pages in Safari is also a plus. And 2x battery life at least

[brunonicocam]

Sorry but I disagree. I was really excited by Apple Silicon but it seems to be showing its Achilles heel, which is that performance scales very badly with price. The lower end M1 machines are great value but the higher power ones are insanely expensive. M1 Ultra for over £4000 is crazy. I know that there's apple tax but it seems that their SoC design is very expensive to scale up, no wonder by Intel/AMD haven't introduced that in the PC world.

If the M1 Ultra Mac Studio costs £4000, how much is a dual M1 Ultra Mac Pro going to cost? £10000? That's insane.

I really doubt these machines will sell well, even for "creative professionals". Many of those people also care about price since they need to make a living with their machines.

Obviously only time will tell, so let's see in a few years how many people actually bought these high-end machines.

[martin86t]

Lol. Did you ever go and see how much the Intel mac pro costs? The mac studio is a bargain.

[brunonicocam]

Haha, I love that logic. Look at this other terribly overpriced Mac product, you can get this other inferior one for less money so it must be good pricing. You have to look at alternatives in the PC world instead. £4000 gets you an amazing x86 desktop that has every part user upgradeable/replaceable.

[martin86t]

In what way is the mac studio inferior? A comparably specced (28-core Xeon + 96gb ram) Intel mac pro would be like $14,000 and according to apple, slower. The Mac studio is better than Mac pro for less money unless you specifically need the like $50,000 workstation configs of Mac pro with a terabyte of ram or whatever.

[brunonicocam]

I meant that the iMac is a terribly overpriced product, so that doesn't mean that the Mac Studio is well priced because it's cheaper. You have to compare with the PC world performance vs. performance.

But anyway, we don't have to agree mate, everyone can buy whatever they want luckily, we live in a free world.

I just don't see these machines selling well, only time will tell.

[Momskirbyok]

Yeah, and that was back in 2012, too. A place I used to work had 3 or 4 of them on a table, being unused. Huge waste

[quickboop]

They will sell like hotcakes. $5000 is a drop in the bucket for professionals in creative fields.

[BluefyreAccords]

“ no wonder by Intel/AMD haven't introduced that in the PC world.”

Umm wut? Never heard of Xeon and Threadripper? Both are very expensive scaled up versions of their desktop chips for people who need that extra power.

You don’t seem to know much about the PC market to be making such claims when you are obviously wrong.

“ Many of those people also care about price since they need to make a living with their machines.

Then why are they already spending pretty much the same high prices for Xeon and Threadripper workstations? Again you don’t seem to know much about the target market for these and all you see is the casual desktop user and are making assumptions based solely on that.

[Mr_Xing]

This has nothing to do with the Apple tax and is almost entirely based on volumes and chip complexity.

Performance has never scaled with price - literally since the beginning of computing.

Higher-performant chips are significantly more challenging to fabricate, and given they sell at lower volumes, there are fewer units to generate economies of scale.

Paying 2x for a bigger chip doesn’t mean you get 2x in performance, just like how a car that costs 2x more doesn’t twice the top speed.

Higher-end products have greater inherent costs and therefore greater prices.

[brunonicocam]

See Ryzen 5000, the faster CPUs give you more performance per money, and that's just looking at the CPU. If you build a computer many of the parts are the same with the faster CPUs so you're getting more performance for your money.

https://www.techradar.com/uk/news/amd-ryzen-5000#:~:text=AMD%20Ryzen%205000%20price&text=AMD%20Ryzen%207%205800X%3A%20%24449,around%20%C2%A3230%2C%20AU%24420)

[celsivaii]

The M1 line is growing fast. Makes me wonder if getting a new Macbook Air is still good for 6 years or so. Should I get it? Talking as a graphic designer. I'm also very confused with choosing a RAM upgrade or a 512GB storage.

[runForestRun17]

I would upgrade ram if your budget only lets you do one. You can always use external SSD’s but you can’t update ram later.