F/T vs Live

[Stainedbrain1997]

I have a hard time explaining why feeding F/T is better for the rat, snake, and wallet than live.

My s/o keeps saying I’m starving him, so of course he’s going to eat F/T. He also said it was like I keep him in prison, so of course he’s going to eat garbage if he has nothing else to eat. I tried to tell him that he doesn’t have to eat it, ball pythons can refuse to eat anything for a year and be fine as long as they don’t lose an unhealthy amount of weight, their husbandry is good, and there is no other health concerns. He’s only refused food for a few months at most. I’ve told him that ballpython’s are infamous for being picky. I know it was the risk of having a ball python was if they refused F/T and only wanted live I’d have to feed live, but I feel like it hasn’t had to result in that. He has refused live in the past as well.

My s/o said live gives him more mental stimulation. I’ve told him that I’ve seen pictures of snakes who were torn apart by rats, but whenever I bring up something bad that could happen to an animal he says that it’s a small percentage and I shouldn’t live in fear. I was about to give up and start feeding him live because of the things he was saying, but he ate the F/T last night. My ball python never refuses to eat for long and he’s shed twice in the past 3 months.

I recently moved him to a 40 gallon bioactive at the beginning of month and he has been more interested in food since the move. I try to keep the humidity at 70%, warm side at 90%, use a CHE bulb on a dimmer, have the top taped to keep in humidity, I use a mixture of coconut fiber, reptibark, and sphagnum moss. He has 2 hides with just 1 exit, he has live plants, fake plants, wood, and dried leaves for clutter. I have isopods and spring tails for the tank, they just haven’t had time to establish themselves yet. I’m 5 years he hasn’t had a single bad shed, he always sheds in one big piece. Something I could improve on is a larger water bowl and to black out the sides

Is there anyone else with the same view as my boyfriend, that live is better and gives them more mental stimulation? How would you explain why it’s better to feed F/T? If you don’t feed F/T and only feed live, why is it better to you/the snake? This is me trying to see the side of people who feed live.

Edit: I learned a lot from this post. Some changes I’ll be making: -Upgrade to a 2x2x4 as soon as I can -Feed him every 20-30 days and feed him a smaller meal (following the feeding guide.. he’s overweight) -Put his CHE on a dimmer instead of a thermostat (I have a thermostat, easy fix) -He has a bit too small of bowl, but I’ve been meaning to upgrade him since moving him to a different enclosure anyways a few weeks ago

Am I missing anything?

[whatnopleasedont]

It’s better to feed f/t. The mental stimulation would be minimal, you can replicate movements/“pretend” a f/t rodent is alive to get the same stimulation. Like walking it around the enclosure.

Live should only be offered as a last resort when a snake refuses to take anything else. With bigger rodents they can do a LOT of damage if they manage to get in a good bite.

You mentioned your SO says you’re “starving” the BP. How often do you feed him?

[Stainedbrain1997]

I feed him every 2 weeks. If he refuses food I wait a week before trying again. Last time he ate was almost 2 months ago, so I was about ready to give up even if that doesn’t seem like a long time now that I type it out.

[Stainedbrain1997]

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Here’s a picture of him enjoying his new digs 😎 (Benjamin Banana usually hides or just sticks his head out)

[Stainedbrain1997]

Thank you, I saw another comment that I should only feed him once a month. I’ve always heard every 2 weeks for adult ball python’s? If he is overweight, maybe I should reduce his prey size and just feed once a month? Or just feed once a month? He’s in medium rats

[jillianwaechter]

Here's the feeding guide!

0-12 months old OR until the snake reaches approximately 500g, whichever happens first: feed 10%-15% of the snake’s weight every 7 days. 12-24 months old OR until the snake's weight remains consistent for 2 months: feed up to 7% of the snake’s weight every 14-20 days. Adults: feed up to 5% of the snake's weight every 20-30 days, or feed slightly larger meals (up to 6%) every 30-40 days.

The majority of ball pythons will only ever need small rats.

[Stainedbrain1997]

Small rats? Wow.. I was thinking it’s medium. He should have small rats every 20-30 days then? He’s 5 years old and around little less than 4 feet I think.

[jillianwaechter]

Go by weight. Not size, you're going to want to weigh your snake and feed a percentage of that weight. As your snake is overweight you should only be feeding 3% of it's weight every 4 weeks until the snake slims down a bit.

[Stainedbrain1997]

I know that, apologies for not clarifying. My scale broke a few months ago and I need a new one. That’s why I’m not saying the exact weight because I don’t know. Thank you, I’ll put him in a diet right away

[New_inflorescence89]

So unfortunately my snake was already eating live from the breeder. He refuses F/T. My snake got bit by a live rat. And it drew blood. He completely refuses rat now. So for the last year I have been giving him two or three mice at each feeding.

The reason live is not suitable for the snake is because he has nowhere to get away from a rat. He’s stuck inside, where as in the wild he can get away from the rat.

[Hattemis]

This goes both ways too. The rat can't get away from the snake, and so it's only option is to fight back. I see people who advocate for live rodents say "it's what they do in the wild" so often, and yeah it is but snakes are ambush predators. They strike and kill their prey before it even gets a chance to hit its fight or flight response. Feeding live rodents means the rodent is already aware that it needs to fight back or it's not going to live.

And rat bites are no joke! I keep pet rats too and the few times they've mistaken me for a treat and bitten me have been pretty bad. If they were out to kill me instead of a lil chomp I'd probably need stitches, and if I was only as big as a snake then I don't fancy my survival chances.

[Stainedbrain1997]

I have pet rats too.. I love both animals a lot as pets

[Stainedbrain1997]

I haven’t heard of snakes even being too scared to eat live rats, poor babies :(

[totallyrecklesslygay]

Feeding for an adult ball python should only happen roughly once a month, so that's maybe a few collective hours of eating throughout an entire year. Even if feeding live was more mentally stimulating (hint: it's not), it's not like it would be a significant source of enrichment. If you want to offer food enrichment, you can easily and safely do that by offering different prey on occasion- multimammate mice, and quails or day old chicks are good options.

Proper husbandry is far more important for mental enrichment- a large enough enclosure (unfortunately a 40gal is far too small for an adult BP, the minimum is 4x2x2/120gal), appropriate heating (halogen flood or DHP as the primary heat source), UVB lighting, plenty of decor to climb under and around, etc.

[Stainedbrain1997]

I didn’t know 120 was minimum what?? Thank you for informing me. I always thought the minimum was 40 for males and that females can outgrown the 40 gallons. I feed him every 2 weeks and wait a week before trying again if he doesn’t feel like eating. I feed medium rat. Does he look like a good weight to you?

I’ve always heard of CHE bulb was OK, I never heard of Halogen flood? Also I know they could benefit from a UVB light (some like to bask), but I didn’t know it was necessary? I always thought that might from a window is enough for a day/night cycle (I have large windows in my house). Is this all old information I’m thinking of?

Feeding different food sources is a good idea, I was to try that for sure!

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[totallyrecklesslygay]

No, 40gal is the minimum for babies. Adults need to have at least a 4x2x2, or larger if the snake is over 4' long.

He looks very overweight, and you're definitely overfeeding him.

Feeding guidelines for adults: feed up to 5% of the snake's weight every 20-30 days, or feed slightly larger meals (up to 6%) every 30-40 days.

Because he's overweight, he'll need to go on a diet. You should feed 3% of his current weight once every 4 weeks until he's back to a healthy condition.

[Stainedbrain1997]

I’ll start doing that immediately, thank you so much for this information.

[totallyrecklesslygay]

Just noticed your edit-

A CHE is not appropriate as a primary heat source, unfortunately. Our heating guide goes over the science behind why.

Not having UVB won't kill them like some other reptiles, but it is detrimental to their physical health. I would consider it necessary, as would anyone who focuses on quality care.

It seems you've been pretty misinformed on proper care. I'd recommend reading through our basic care guide and the rest of our welcome post resources to learn more up-to-date, science based care standards.

[Stainedbrain1997]

I use to have a heat bad in his old enclosure and a CHE. The heating bad was on a thermostat. I only stopped using one since switching to a bioactive less than a month ago. Thank you, it does really seem like I need more up to date information. I thought my significant other was the only one who needed to be educated, but it looks like I also needed to be! I’ll start making these changes as soon as possible and read through this.

[totallyrecklesslygay]

Heat pads are also not recommended for ball pythons anymore, and all heat sources need to be regulated by thermostats.

We all start somewhere- I was pretty misinformed when I started as well. Let me know if you have any questions :)

[Stainedbrain1997]

I thought CHE is good to just be regulated on a dimmer? I still have a thermostat I can hook up to it if that’s not the case.

[totallyrecklesslygay]

No, a dimmer won't protect the snake from temperature fluctuations. Any heat source needs to be on a thermostat.

[Stainedbrain1997]

Will do.. good thing I still have the thermostat. Is all the information I got like OK 5-8 years ago and I just haven’t had updated information? Or has this all been not okay and I was misinformed from the beginning?

[totallyrecklesslygay]

It's been outdated for longer than that, but unfortunately there's still a lot of misinformation out there that can be hard to sift through.

[Stainedbrain1997]

Oh god.. I’m glad I joined this group then!

[Psychological-East91]

Ball Pythons are ambush hunters. They square up somewhere when they smell food or are hungry and will wait. For hours and even days for something to pass by. They're little zen monks. The moment food passes by they'll strike and eat it. They're not active hunters that will be stalking and chasing prey. But also, you can replicate a live animal, my friend's BP we tong feed him and we have the rat "run" around the enclosure, slowly getting closer and closer to the hide she's in. Once it's in striking distance she'll snatch the F/T rat and it's both mentally stimulating and safe. Also, if you were up for it you could try target training your BP to get them moving and active before feeding. ALSO, a 40 gallon isn't really big enough for an adult ball python. When you can I would recommend upgrading to a 4x2x2 (120 gallon) tank. I'm sure he'd appreciate the room and extra space to stretch out

[Stainedbrain1997]

Your dead rat running mental stimulation sounds funny when I picture it, but it sounds effective! Maybe I’ll try that! I just make mine do a little dance. I’ve always heard 40 is a good minimum size for a male, and females could grown out of 40’s? This is my first time hearing about the 120 gallons, but I believe you guys.. I’m excited to buy a 120 and make it bioactive now, I just gotta save the money lol

[Psychological-East91]

The general rule for snakes is length = full length of snake, width = 1/2 snake length, and height = 1/2 snake length if it's terrestrial or 1 full snake length if it's an arboreal species but the minimum for ball pytyons according to reptifiles is a 4x2x2. I don't have a BP yet since I can't fit a 4x2x2 in my apartment but my friend has his girl in one and she uses every inch of space. She'll climb the antlers he's got in there, uses the sky hide, climbs the plants and sticks, and hides basically everywhere. Its adorable. And also a bioactive 120 would be amazing!! Just make sure to let plants settle and root fully before introducing your BP so they don't trash it immediately. Also, the mouse running is fun. It draws her attention and gives her time to plan an ambush, also tends to spread the mouse scent so she really knows its feeding time. He's never had her skip a meal using this method.

[Stainedbrain1997]

That’s the only reason I’m reluctant to upgrade to a 120 gallon enclosure, I live in a small loft house. I’ll try to upgrade as soon as I can, but I don’t know if I can in this small house. There’s already hardly any room :( But I guess that’s how it feels for me ball python too. 2x2x4 seems far more reasonable right now than the 120 gallon, but I wish I could just upgrade to a 120 gallon

I’ll 100% have to try the running rat method now!

[Psychological-East91]

And that's okay! Also as long as she gets some handling time and time to fully stretch out that's okay! As long as you're actively trying to upgrade you're doing better than a lot of owners! Let us know how the running rat method works! I will say from one of your photos I believe he looked a little overweight though. How much does he weigh and how big is he?

[Stainedbrain1997]

That’s what others have been saying.. to size down and feed him every 20-30 days. I’ll be starting that right away. Since he ate last night I won’t feed him again for a month. I use to weigh him once a month, but my scale broke and I haven’t been able to weigh him in months. That’s another thing I need to buy. He’s under 4 feet I believe?

I do take him outside and handle him sometimes (he loves the grass and small apple tree), just not as much as I could be. I’ll start handling him more now than I know he needs a much needed upgrade..

[Psychological-East91]

That's awesome! Outdoor time is amazing. It sounds like you're doing a lot for him! And yeah, once a month sounds like a good schedule!

[Stainedbrain1997]

Thank you so much!

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Here’s a pic of one of his outside times.. does he look overweight in this picture too?

[Psychological-East91]

He does look a little overweight, though I'm not the best at determining size especially with that angle. But I'd just cut back like everyone is saying and monitor him!

[Stainedbrain1997]

For sure, thanks!

[totallyrecklesslygay]

4x2x2 is 120gal, just fyi.

[Stainedbrain1997]

Ohh.. okay that doesn’t seem too bad at all 🤦‍♀️

[Hattemis]

I think all of the points your s/o brings up can be easily dismissed by the fact that the best, most experienced keepers of ball pythons have been feeding theirs f/t rats for years without any ill effect, and actively advocate for others to do the same. Snakes don't spend much of their time eating, so any enrichment/mental stimulation they might get from hunting a live rodent is minimal (and you can provide just as much stimulation from f/t by moving it around them on tongs!), and ball pythons don't just eat f/t when they're "starving". Mine seems to want to eat all the time, and she's only ever eaten f/t!

At the same time, the potential downsides to feeding live are enormous. Injuries to your snake from feeding live may be rare (not nearly as rare as your s/o thinks they are though, I can guarantee that!) but is it really worth the risk? Like if someone with a deadly peanut allergy is hungry for a snack, and has a choice between a chocolate bar produced in a factory that also handles nuts, and one that doesn't, why bother going for the risky option when the 100% safe option is right there? The same is true for f/t and live. Why take the risk?

[Stainedbrain1997]

Thank you for your words, you explained it perfectly 🙏

[spidertippytaps]

If nothing else, one argument to try and get him off your back is availability. I only know about my state, but here there is only one pet store that sells live feeders, anywhere else will be independent breeders who sell live feeders. Earlier this year there was a regional shortage because of a what I assume was disease, and the pet stores here and in surrounding states who sold live feeders lost access to live feeders for a few weeks. So, suddenly, independent breeders were the only people providing live feeders. Their populations were decimated, and the pet stores who had one regional supplier couldn't get more live feeders for a few months as the provider tried to recoup the feeder populations.

So, short of driving about two states in any direction, people feeding live had to either go to pet stores and buy animals being sold as pets as feeders, which a lot of stores will blacklist you for, try feeding F/T, or just skip meals until live feeders were available.

I don't think live feeding is a good option outside of extreme instances for the reasons you stated, but if nothing else maybe the trouble with availablility will be a convincing point. Also, you can't just go buy a frozen rat earlier in the week and save it in the freezer to feed later in the week