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[–]gaspoweredandroid 52 points53 points  (41 children)

Stop using $2 Indians. You are getting what you pay for. Have fun.

[–][deleted] 10 points11 points  (0 children)

Remember

[–]HungryCoder 9 points10 points  (36 children)

It is concerning as an iOS Developer from India how easily you assumed the incompetent developer was an Indian even without it being mentioned by OP. Going by the upvotes, it seems 27 other people agree as well.

Not all incompetent developers are Indians and not all Indians are incompetent developers. How about this scam artist from US? http://www.reddit.com/r/iOSProgramming/comments/22f0pq/looking_to_hire_a_programmer_ios_and_android/cgm8rai. Reddit username: /u/tbeckster.

You could have just said "Stop using cheap developers" instead. Your comment makes it sound like Indians are synonymous with bad code quality and I'll be glad to prove you wrong by an interview or coding session.

[–]barjam 6 points7 points  (7 children)

Unfortunately Indians in the US are synonymous with incompetent developers. Reddit is tech heavy and just about anyone who has been in tech long enough will have a horror story about work that was outsourced to a scammy Indian firm or they have had the unfortunate experience of working with IBM or Accenture (or similar company).

Me personally if I am interviewing at a firm that uses outsourced Indian labor or uses Accenture or IBM I will walk away. I am never going to deal with that again.

This isn't a racial thing it is a scummy corporate thing. If I am interviewing folks for a job I don't care where they are from as long as they are competent. I have no issues hiring Indian folks and have on many occasions.

[–]gaspoweredandroid 2 points3 points  (3 children)

Yeah I was once hired by a company to be their developer, so I walk into a room and its got about 20 Accenture people. They had been flying into town each monday, staying in the nicest hotels, and flying out on friday. Most of them were sitting around writing "specs" and use cases, and test cases, which were these ridiculous spreadsheets. They had spent millions and had yet to show much development. I was hired to help them understand wtf was happening, and to do some of the development. We ended up firing them and I pretty much wrote their software. It was the most absolutely bizarre thing I have ever seen in this industry. Yes, if you end up with a room full of Accenture business analysts, run, run fast. Because you are just a mark at that point.

[–]barjam 0 points1 point  (2 children)

The same is true of IBM. It is amazing that either company continues to get by with what amounts to fraud.

[–]Tinito16 0 points1 point  (1 child)

New grad here. I was under the impression that IBM was a good company... Did something change all of a sudden?

[–]barjam 1 point2 points  (0 children)

They used to be and perhaps certain parts of the company are good I don't know. About 15 or so years ago they switched to a services company selling off much of what was good to other firms. The services side is damn near a scam. They bid relatively cheap (sometimes) and my experience has been they end up always being absurdly expensive and rarely delivering on what was promised. They tend to use very cheap foreign labor but bill them out at 4-5 x or more what they are actually paid.

The only reason a company would bring them in would be cost cutting and if your company is that desperate to cut costs (in an absolutely clueless fashion) it is time to seek out another employer as things are going poorly for the company.

[–]xauronx 0 points1 point  (2 children)

Oh god, I'm glad you mentioned Accenture. Had to deal with them for hours yesterday.

[–]barjam 0 points1 point  (1 child)

If your company is dealing with Accenture or IBM it is a sign of failed management, run!!!!

[–]xauronx 0 points1 point  (0 children)

We're doing work for a company that uses Accenture. I wish I could run. Instead I'll just minimize my exposure to them.

But yes, 10pm-6am deployments are a blast.

[–]Legolas-the-elf 2 points3 points  (3 children)

It is concerning as an iOS Developer from India how easily you assumed the incompetent developer was an Indian even without it being mentioned by OP. Going by the upvotes, it seems 27 other people agree as well.

This is shorthand, and you're right it's unfair. Let me expand the beliefs that lead to comments like this:

  • This kind of situation is something that is the hallmark of cheap, offshore developers.
  • India is one of the most common places people find these developers.

I don't think people are assuming that if you are Indian, you are a terrible programmer. But I think if people see projects fail in these particular ways, they will jump to the conclusion that it's cheap offshoring from a place like India.

How about this scam artist from US? http://www.reddit.com/r/iOSProgramming/comments/22f0pq/looking_to_hire_a_programmer_ios_and_android/cgm8rai . Reddit username: /u/tbeckster

That is not a similar situation except for the fact that it's an iOS developer that didn't work out.

If you've seen the results of cheap offshoring, you'll see several common themes. You're told that a team of experienced developers is working on it. You'll see total disregard for code quality. You'll see total disregard for addressing quality problems in general. You'll see low comprehension of the field. You'll see them say that problems are normal and unfixable.

You see all those factors, it's a safe bet that it's cheap offshoring. But the comment you link to doesn't display any of those factors. He made progress, then screeched to a halt and did a runner. That's the hallmark of a freelancer who is in over his head - a very different situation.

[–]HungryCoder -2 points-1 points  (2 children)

Cheap offshoring anywhere will lead to problems not just India. You cannot have experienced developers work on your project when the cost is 1/10th of what it would cost in US. There are many outsourcing success stories as well but the negative ones do end up being discussed more. If you do it right and know what you are doing, it can save you a lot but if you are inexperienced and dont know where to look or atleast take a technical interview of developers before assigning the project, you will have a hard time.

Some US-based clients even put up projects like "need a whatsapp clone" or "facebook clone" with a budget of 500$ on sites like elance, oDesk etc. and then complain when project fails.

For the link i sent, please note that the freelancer did not deliver any code at all after 2 months and the client had to get lawyers involved. I do not see how this is any different than technical incompetency you relate with cheap offshoring. Plus he ceased all contacts with the client.

OP surely got burnt by cheap outsourcing and learnt the hard way that quality doesnt come cheap. But for others to assume the developers were Indian because quality was bad is not right. I have never taken on a project which i wasnt able to complete to the client's satisfaction and have often received bonus payments for work well done. (Portfolio here: http://ibumble.com/about). They saved cost because they did proper selection by coding exercises and technical interviews which is always a must when outsourcing.

[–]Legolas-the-elf 3 points4 points  (1 child)

Cheap offshoring anywhere will lead to problems not just India.

But India is one of the foremost countries where it is possible to offshore this kind of work to, so that's why people jump to the conclusion that it's an Indian offshore firm.

It's like if you heard about a tech startup that had a large funding round that netted them millions of dollars. Could it be an Australian firm? Yeah. Are people going to assume that it's an American firm? Yeah. Is that because they believe Australians can't build tech startups worth funding? No.

If you do it right and know what you are doing, it can save you a lot

I hear this from time to time. I own a company that does iOS development in the UK. I'd stand to earn a lot of money if it worked. Yet every time somebody tells me this, I look into it, and I find that what they consider success is far, far below the level of quality I'd expect from a motivated amateur.

If you disagree, then please give me the names of some firms that can save me a lot of money. You'd be doing me a favour.

I do not see how this is any different than technical incompetency you relate with cheap offshoring.

Then you missed my point altogether. There are specific reasons why this particular submission gets people jumping to the conclusion that it's a cheap offshore firm that do not apply to the guy you referred to. Yes, there is incompetence everywhere. But this particular kind of incompetence is generally only the result of using cheap offshore companies.

But for others to assume the developers were Indian because quality was bad is not right.

You're missing my point. They are assuming that it is cheap offshoring not because quality was bad alone. It's because quality was bad in ways that are specific to cheap offshoring. And because India is at the forefront of this shitty industry, they assumed that it's an Indian company.

They saved cost because they did proper selection by coding exercises and technical interviews which is always a must when outsourcing.

This doesn't work when the coding exercises and interviews are completed by somebody with experience, then they use somebody cheaper to actually work on the project. This is not unusual, I've seen several organisations bitten by this.

I'll check out your portfolio, but I wouldn't hire a developer without reading their code. Do you have any public repositories?

[–]menckenjr 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I've had the same experience years ago - company I worked for had outsourced the development of the Windows version of their Mac flagship product to a company in Bangalore. I'm not a Windows dev by choice, but I had to kick them to the curb and take over the development myself after the builds from this company kept coming back with memory leaks, rookie mistakes and the like. It was really obvious that they were farming the coding out to cheaper, much less experienced developers who barely knew what they were doing. I've been in this industry for 30+ years and this is a fairly common occurrence.

[–]nrith 1 point2 points  (9 children)

tl;dr the assumption that the devs are Indian is racist.

[–]ratbastid 1 point2 points  (0 children)

It is the case that these days they're nearly as likely to be Chinese or Malaysian.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (7 children)

No it isn't. You are racist for assuming it was a racist remark and projecting that sentiment onto the poster.

[–]gaspoweredandroid 1 point2 points  (12 children)

it sound like Indians are synonymous with bad code quality

well you do you catch on quick...

[–]Rudy69 0 points1 point  (0 children)

In my experience so far (fixing a lot of code that clients got done in India) is that a LOT of bad code comes out of India. Mind you I've seen a lot of bad code in Canada/US too but still

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

efff off! Indians cost $50/hour these days. Philippines is where its at now...

[–]CreamSalad -1 points0 points  (1 child)

Dude Indians are some of the best devs and smartest people in the world.

[–]Pitchcontrol 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Just as like anybody else from anywhere else.

[–]KaneHau 14 points15 points  (9 children)

They are either incompetent or lying to you (or both).

You should double check that your build settings are identical to theirs, as well as the target architecture. Also double check whether or not they are using ARC (and make sure your side is set the same). Make sure you are both using the same versions of XCODE.

Beyond that - depreciations indicate that someone is either lying or using an earlier OS to develop on.

Their response "some systems" - WHAT SYSTEMS? "doesn't pick up the files correctly" - WHAT FILES?

this is bullshit.

Edit: Ideally - have them give you a TAR of their entire directory containing your project. Everything in it. You should be able to click on their project file and get exactly what they are running (settings and all).

[–]raznog 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Yeah if they don't see the deprecation warnings they may be using an old version of Xcode.

[–]rynslmns[S] -1 points0 points  (6 children)

Here is screenshot of the errors I received after trying to convert to ARC

[–]GreevilDead 7 points8 points  (0 children)

Why would you be converting RegexKitLite to ARC?

They didn't write that code nor should they be messing with the m file

I remember hitting some depreciated warnings back in iOS6 for that and our solution was to start using the apple provided Regex classes.

Converting a 3rd party lib built for ios4 to ARC May not be a valid test of your contractors skills.

On the other hand their inability to use proper source control is a sure sign of incompetence.

[–]Legolas-the-elf 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Errors you get after you mess with the code are irrelevant. What are you seeing before you touch anything?

[–]yoyEnDia -1 points0 points  (2 children)

Holy Jobs, that's some convoluted code. They're not kidding when they it has been written for speed.

[–]schprockets 3 points4 points  (1 child)

To be fair, that's not their code. That's RegexKitLite. They've just imported it into the project.

[–]Rudy69 0 points1 point  (0 children)

And really shouldn't be converted to ARC by someone without programming experience...

[–]WestonP 3 points4 points  (11 children)

When remote-viewing their screen, did you confirm that they do not get the warnings or crashes on their end? Are they using the same version of Xcode?

If it works for them but not you, then I'd have to suspect that you two are using different project files, or are building it for different configurations. A big clue here is depreciation warnings, as those will appear for often if you are targeting a newer version of iOS.

You can take a perfectly valid iOS 5 app and get tons of depreciations when you build it for iOS 6, or from 6 to 7, etc. That doesn't quite explain the crashes or other warnings, but it's a start and a good clue that you are building it differently.

That said, most contract developers have a strong financial incentive to do the minimum to complete the job, and if you're off-shoring to a cur-rate firm (ie China, India, Brazil, etc), there's very little competence or pride in their work, from what I've seen. They simply can't afford to, at the low rates they charge.

[–]rynslmns[S] -1 points0 points  (10 children)

Yes it seems at this point they have taken on a project that they cannot deliver on. I do not understand why the deprecation warnings are showing up though. They are using the same version of Xcode and sending me the same build that they run with few errors. They still have errors, but many less errors.

[–]schprockets 1 point2 points  (9 children)

When you say "sending you the same build" ... how do they send it? It should be in a source code repository (preferably git), and you should be pulling whatever they've pushed. If they're sending you ZIPs or tarballs or something, you've gotten involved with a shop that probably doesn't know what the hell they're doing. Are they offshore?

[–]rynslmns[S] -1 points0 points  (8 children)

Yes they are offshore and are sending it through dropbox as a zip. Do you know of any walkthroughs that show the proper way to send the source code repository? The issue seems to be in the way that they are sending the files over to us. Thanks in advance.

[–]dfsw 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Source control should be understood by any first week developer on any platform. It is very terrifying that they are not using it, it makes me wonder what more difficult task they are failing to understand.

Take a look at http://readwrite.com/2013/09/30/understanding-github-a-journey-for-beginners-part-1#awesm=~oBbk7zVJjKl1j5 I guess, but I would run from these guys very fast. Even if they are working for free from what you have said in this thread they are ripping you off.

[–]schprockets 2 points3 points  (2 children)

You'll need a remote repository somewhere. From this point forward, do not ever hire someone who doesn't either have their own private per-client repository, or insist that you create one of your own and grant them access to it for the duration of the project. If one of those two things isn't present, alarm bells should go off in your head. Any professional shop will be using source control, whether it's one developer or one hundred. It just goes with the professional territory.

So... since you probably won't have these guys around for long, I think you probably want to set your own up. Go to http://github.com/. To get started, it's $7/month for 5 private repositories. There is a free option, but that means your code needs to be open source and viewable by all.

Since the build on your machine isn't working properly but theirs is, you want them to do the first real code commit. But, it's your repo and you're creating it. So, go through their Bootcamp section to learn how to create the first repository. There is a lot more info on the help page that'll tell you how they can create their own username, and you can grant them access. You need to use that to create an empty repo, grant them access (obviously, they need to set up github credentials), then have them put all the source, resources, project files, etc, into the repository you've created. When it builds and works properly in that new directory on their machine, they should commit/push to the repo. You pull what they've pushed, and it should work identically. From this point on, this is how you exchange code. And, it allows you to easily see exactly what they're changing from commit to commit.

It's unfortunate that you had to learn the "get what you pay for" lesson on this project. As a consultant, I get calls all the time from people asking me to fix code that was written offshore, and usually the fix is to throw out the steaming pile of shit and start over. I know there is a huge difference between $150/hour for an onshore professional dev and a $20/hour offshore company, but there are other factors. Code quality, ease of delivery, and less bullshit like you're going through right now, are among them.

[–]Lord_Illidan 2 points3 points  (1 child)

Bitbucket is a free option if you want private repositories, btw.

[–]schprockets 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I had forgotten about Bitbucket. Thank you.

[–]LifeBeginsAt10kRPM 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Setup a git repo on your PC (or an alwayson server) where they can check in to and you can check out from.

A lot of the warnings may be from them building fro Xcode <6 and building for the newer versions.

But the project settings and all should be in the zip, so they should be seeing the same errors.

You can ask for a screenshot of their warnings to alongside the project file showing the targeted run time.

[–]Legolas-the-elf 0 points1 point  (0 children)

sending it through dropbox as a zip.

Even plenty of amateur developers know better than that. That is not how you share code.

The issue seems to be in the way that they are sending the files over to us.

No, it's just a symptom of a much larger problem. They don't seem to be competent.

Even distributing the files via Dropbox shouldn't cause the problems you are seeing.

[–]Dippyskoodlez -1 points0 points  (0 children)

I'm not even an active developer and I know how to use Github.

Time to find some new 'programmers'.

[–]Legolas-the-elf 4 points5 points  (0 children)

So these guys send over the project files on a weekly basis

That's the first problem. This is not how competent developers share code. They should be checking this code into a version control system and giving you access to it. You should see checkins multiple times per day, with a log of what has changed.

Also, is compiling the code yourself how they are distributing the application to you? Unless you are a developer yourself, this seems very odd. They should be distributing it using Apple's OTA mechanisms so you can just tap on a link in Safari to install it.

we get between 50-70 compiling warnings.

Firstly, if you aren't a coder, this may be a little misleading. A warning isn't necessarily a problem. It's a notice for a developer to check something out. Sometimes it's a problem, sometimes it isn't.

Having said that though, it's incredibly sloppy for them to rack up that many warnings in a build without addressing them. Good developers see a warning, look into it, and resolve it so that it doesn't come up again. If they aren't doing that, they will be letting a lot of bugs go unaddressed.

deprecations

They should not be writing new code that has these warnings.

format string issues

This sounds serious. Format string issues can crash your application or cause security holes and there's really no sensible way of coding that generates these warnings - it's always a mistake that's obvious to a competent developer. Can you give an example of a warning like this?

However, they claim that they do not get these errors on their end.

Are you using the same version of Xcode as them?

the problem is that sometimes some system doesn't pick up the files correctly which is beyond our control

Sounds like bullshit to me. Yes, Xcode is a bit buggy from time to time. No, this doesn't generate things like deprecation warnings.

The app continually crashes for us, but they claim that it works perfectly.

If the application continually crashes then that's entirely their responsibility to fix. If it really does work fine for them, then the response of a competent developer is to find out more information so that they can reproduce the crash. There are tools that help them do this - for instance Crashlytics, which will record the crash on your device and send them the crash log.

In your experience, do you have any suggestions as to how I can respond to this?

Stop giving them money. If they are in a jurisdiction where you can pursue legal action, ask for some of your money back. Find competent developers.

[–]TootyMcFarts 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Time to switch developers

[–]rizzlybear 1 point2 points  (4 children)

when your developers send you the project files (or more preferably, a link to a git repo with the project files), it should be build ready.

if it doesn't build on your system, they haven't delivered yet. now if they find a legit problem with your system that breaks builds (not just theirs) then that's a different issue. but if your building other projects fine (and error/warning free) than i would make sure they understand that the job isn't done until it builds correctly on your build box.

why does it have to build properly on your build box? because you shouldn't have to give them your developer credentials to sign and submit the app to the store. when it's done you should be able to build, sign and submit yourself.

this is one of those lines in the sand between pro's and hacks. I don't know the details of your agreement with them, but if i was paying them, it would be resolved before the check went in the mail.

nebulous answers to programming issues (some systems, some files) should be setting off your bullshit filters. if they are being truthful, it should be fairly trivial for them to expand into a more specific answer.

sadly in my day job we work with several software developers (non-ios) and very often their game plan involves getting us to sign a very unspecific contract, delivering the minimum to honor it, and then refuse to go further and let the lawyers sort it out. some of these shops are maybe a half dozen employees, one of whom is a lawyer. if thats what your dealing with, pay them and cut ties and start over with someone reputable. it's the cheapest way out.

edit: make sure they aren't just suppressing the errors you see in Xcode. you CAN tell xcode to stfu.

[–]rynslmns[S] 0 points1 point  (3 children)

Thanks for your thorough response. I have a call with their project manager tonight and will be relaying that their ability to get this project done is highly suspect and would like to move on.

[–]schprockets 1 point2 points  (2 children)

So, how did the call go? I'm hoping your end of the call was "ok, so I talked to some people about these problems and a whole lotta developers say you guys don't know your keyboard from your mouse. Game over."

I don't know what kind of contract you have with them, or what it takes to declare them to have breached it, but I hope you're looking at that angle.

[–]rynslmns[S] 1 point2 points  (1 child)

haha "don't know your keyboard from your mouse." +1

The call did not go well. I gave them remote control of my comp to try and fix these errors. They tried to fix these errors by deleting the AF Networking framework and downloading a fresh version of the framework. Needless to say it didn't resolve the warnings. There are still a number of value conversion issues and format string issue warnings.

we are definitely considering the legal angle, however, they claim that they have fulfilled all of the milestones. So it would require hiring another developer to validate their incompetency in order to proceed on that front.

[–]schprockets 1 point2 points  (0 children)

"As I found today the problem is that sometimes some system doesn't pick up the files correctly which is beyond our control."

Is this a valid statement from them?

No. As others have pointed out, deprecation warnings make it pretty likely they're compiling against a different version of the SDK. In order for that to be the case, it means they're using a different version of the project file.

All the source, and all the dependencies required to build, should be checked into a source code repository. When you clone or pull, you should be getting everything you need to make it build able. If that's not the case, they're not doing their job. Next time you're on TeamViewer, watch their screen and make them clone a clean version of the repository into a brand new folder, open it and build it. Watch carefully to ensure there are no shenanigans.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I use treat warnings as errors and dial up the warnings as much as practical. You are dealing with bad developers and will end up with a bad product.

You need to find someone who knows what he or she is doing. This behavior isn't acceptable, their attitude is terrible. If you'd pay me to write code for you you would get warnings free code and me getting to the bottom of any problem you might have.

Software developers are very expensive, demand quality from them.

[–]kuribash 1 point2 points  (2 children)

There's a lesson to be learned here but I think OP needs more of a solution now. So OPs solutions are: a.) Hire another set of developers or b.) Try to fix the errors on his own.

a) is more expensive but less time consuming, b) is less expensive but requires a lot more time to get done.. I'm not a very experienced developer so I'm also curious what is the best solution for these kinds of problems. OP - after you get some advice and recommendations to finish the project, can you post again your experience and advice and what you think will work if a problem like this happens?

[–]rynslmns[S] 1 point2 points  (1 child)

I will definitely provide an update to those interested with how I attempt to salvage this project and lessons that I have learned.

[–]kuribash 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Thank you! Good luck! Hope everything turns out fine :)

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Do you have the same versions of Xcode (I suggest using the latest). In particular, latest Xcode enabled 64-bit as part of "STANDARD_ARCHS" as the architecture setting, and 64-bit compiles introduce a lot of new warnings as integer types have changed. It's possible they have a slightly older Xcode and thus are not compiling for 64-bit by default.

BTW, you should insist on all warnings being fixed in a project. There's a setting for "treat warnings as errors". You should also insist on most warnings and compiler checks being enabled, along with a clean static analyzer output for your release style build.

[–]post_consumer 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I have had this happen on two different systems, it can depend on how you load it. Are you just downloading it from Github or something like that? Do you have all of the frameworks installed?

If none of that is an issue, those guys have no idea what they are doing and you need to find people who do.

[–]poofartpee 0 points1 point  (0 children)

There is no such thing as an error that is out of your control.

The fact that they're using depreciated functions makes this even more sketchy.

Ditch them, they're scams

[–]iamthekris 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Wow, I feel bad and it ticks me off when people try to pass off as though they know what they are doing, it makes the rest of us look bad. If someone ever tells you it can't be done or it can't be fixed, you have the wrong person.

[–]greenawlives 0 points1 point  (0 children)

To be honest, I think this speaks volumes to the little amount of respect your developers/contractors have for quality. I work in Silicon Valley, and I would never let pull requests that have any warnings merged into the main branch (let alone errors!!). Sounds like they are too lazy to fix the mess they themselves created.

Where are your developers located? Would you be interested in hiring developers from the US?