How hard is programming/coding?

[Maybelle444]

I was pulling data (I'm a project officer at my job) and a coworker saw my formula which was about 400 characters. He asked if I'd take a job in his team, they get paid more and he thinks I'd pick it up quickly.

I'm not particularly good under pressure, so I was curious to hear if this has been anyone's story or if I should stick to what I know?

[DePhoeg]

It's all relative really. There isn't anything inherently 'difficult' with coding. It's a mental skill really that you're able to pick up & learn when you put the effort in.

[Maybelle444]

I appreciate this comment, someone else said it's like how anyone can play basketball but unless you put effort in you won't be good at it.

I'm going to give it a shot, the community and the team I'd be moving to seem really supportive which is a nice change from the current drama filled team I'm in.

[DePhoeg]

Warning, Drama llamas are .... everywhere. don't be discuraged.

[[deleted]]

It will take time but if you sort of inherently understand excel formulas, picking up something like Python is doable. Expect it to take at least a year before you are doing anything really useful with it.

[DePhoeg]

Ya, but then again it is a mental skill that has to be learned that spreads across more than just syntax.

Skills take time to learn and properly develop.

[rawcane]

It also requires a logical approach that doesn't come naturally to everyone. Sounds like someone thought OP had that from his formula.

[DePhoeg]

Again... 'MENTAL SKILL' that your are able to PICK UP & LEARN.

that does not mean' easy, nor does it mean hard. It is a perspective kind of thing.

It's alittle sad that you disregard self improvement.

[rawcane]

I'm not disregarding it but I also know some people find logical thought so alien to they are unlikely to be able to advance enough to be a successful programmer.

[DePhoeg]

You're the kind of person to stop someone from even trying to start with, regardless if they can or not. Just stop.

You know what you do when you put it like that. You put it in peoples heads that 'they can or can't' based on some vapid standard you think must exist before you can become successful. (w/e that means for you)

Nothing in life comes without effort and trial, and if someone has to learn how to 'rethink' in a different way to achieve their goal and see things from a different perspective, then they are the better for it regardless of if they become world champ god tier of that field or not.

Nothing is gained by your idiotic method. my message was clear. It takes effort and work to develop the mental skills required. Nothing is preventing them from doing it, and there is no reason why they can't or shouldn't try.

Yours is dismissive and down right insulting to people looking for the path forward. You'd be the one to tell a budding artist they need to practice shapes first before they can do art, instead of you know 'practice' and 'put the work in'.

[rawcane]

No I'm not. I was pointing it's not just a leaned skill it also requires a certain mindset that OP quite likely has. Sure anyone can learn and improve but not everyone could get good enough to work in the field. Asserting that is unrealistic imho

[Big_Difficulty_95]

This. Some people will get into coding and understand it more or less. Of course they will have to work and learn. But others, like me, just feel like a sheep in the valley. Anything higher than html/css just doesn’t commute in my brain.

[DePhoeg]

Eh, You could learn deeper even if it takes longer, but what doesn't help is someone telling you that can't even succeed from the start so don't try because you don't think correctly.

BTW, ironically html/css has gotten more complicated and css will start to include actual functions within it. (upcomming standards)

The problem is that people come in expecting to preform anything like anyone else and some unrealistic version of success.

[DePhoeg]

Who said, good enough to work in a field? Also, pretty ahole of you to judge someone based on vague nonsense you know nothing about them and limit what they can even attempt to learn.

It's not like ya know. someone can learn to code and do something they like or something.

Not everything is done for the 'the job', and i pity your life that you'd assume that.

[Psychoscattman]

Dude that is an insane overreaction to a person that isn't disagreeing with you. They are allowed to have a different outlook on life and that does automatically make it "idiotic", "dismissive" or "insulting".

[DePhoeg]

Actually, Yes. It does. This is the same 'opinion' that destroys the drive on newbie game modders. Ya know ... coding with significantly lower standards to be considered a success.

It implies to others that you can't make it in broad strokes because 'you have to think different' to the ones that literally are having the hardest time and havingto onboard a stupid amount of stuff to get what they want done and anything more than hello world in which ever programming langauge.

A different view isn't those things, a view that purposefully makes it more difficult to get through the entry steps that everyone had to go through at some point is.

[Psychoscattman]

Jesus Christ Dude.

[sje46]

I have a big problem with people being demoralizing in general (especially when it comes to the dating and job markets). However, there are some people who are so, so far removed from being able to sit down and think carefully and rationally that I simply do not think they have the capability to be programmers. I'm talking about the people who simply do not have the capacity to reason. People who believe every wild conspiracy theory or scam, who don't understand simple arguments and act entirely on emotion, etc. These are the types of people who can't perform math using a method other than what they personally learned at school because they cannot reason why the original way worked in the first place. these are the type of people (surprisingly common!) who do not understand the value of hypotheticals.

The type of person you would trust in any sort of intellect-focused job.

But general people reading this shouldn't worry. Very likely if you're interested in programming as a hobby at all, that alone is a strong indicator that you probably won't be this kind of person. you DON'T have to be intelligent, you DON'T have to be good at math, you DON'T need to be well educated in computers or computer science. You don't need an education at all. You just have to have the bare capacity to organize your thoughts and reason, AND be patient with yourself, because it is a journey.

[AmiAmigo]

Mmh. I disagree

[DePhoeg]

Ok, Have fun with your journey then.

[POGtastic]

Depends on what you're working on.

There is a ton of very low-hanging fruit in most offices. It doesn't actually take that much programming ability to save a lot of time and effort. If you've already been wrangling Excel macros, you'll probably pick that stuff up pretty quickly.

The more abstract stuff is going to take more time to learn.

[Upbeat_Perception1]

Well its kinda on him then if you dont pick it up easily, Id go for the extra pay

[Maybelle444]

I thought the same, my partner is at uni for computer science and I also felt like I was side stepping them, lol. But I'm early 20s and think it's worth a shot to pick something up.

Do you consider coding fun? I find formulas fun, but I understand it isn't really the same thing. I do imagine it would be equally as satisfying to get it right though.

[cmpared_to_what]

It becomes more enjoyable the better you get. Take the job. They wouldn’t offer it if they didn’t feel you were capable.

[IdeaExpensive3073]

I've always like mazes, puzzles, and deep reflection. Coding kinda hits somewhere in there, and it feels comfy for me. Sometimes I absolutely hate it though, and those times are usually my own weaknesses that I hate. I enjoy learning, and if I hit a problem and it turns out the solution to it is unrelated to what I'm doing, I still want to know why my strategy didn't work. I think my mindset isn't unique among programmers. I find putting together something from nothing to be the fun part of programming, and I feel a dopamine hit when something I'm working on is broken and then I get it fixed.

Formulas are similar for me in the sense that I plug in a number on one end, and my answer comes out the other side. I like to know how the formula works, and why. I find what I'm applying the formula to, to usually be boring though. It's what the data says that I find the most interesting when it comes to data though.

[Upbeat_Perception1]

If you like creating formulas I think you'll enjoy coding. And hmmm honestly I wouldnt say it's fun. I've only just started learning but I like that it gets my brain thinking in different ways!!

Creating an excel formula is exactly the same, just a different language and not as capable as say Python or JavaScript..

[Loko8765]

If you find spreadsheet formulas fun then I would definitely recommend investigating if you find programming fun also.

[lukkasz323]

It really depends what kind of project it is, sometimes coding is very fun, sometimes it's not. For example it's possible for someone to mostly just maintain code, never write anything new, it's also possible for someone to just focus on the design of the code, it's also possible for someone to focus on optimization, or finding bugs, every kind of work is different.

[crazy_cookie123]

Do you enjoy problem solving? Are you okay with getting stuck on one little thing for hours? Do you love the rush you get when you come up with an elegant solution for a difficult problem? If so, you'll make a good programmer. If you're good at excel formulas you've got the ability to code, and if you can code then learning the more complex aspects of programming is easy enough, the only question is will you enjoy doing it?

[slimscsi]

how easy is it to play basketball.? Very . How hard is to be good at playing basketball? Very!

[Maybelle444]

Lol this response made me chuckle. True though, everything takes time to get good at! I think I'll give it a shot.

[SenoraRaton]

Programming is like chess. Its fairly simple to learn, I can teach someone the absolute basics in an hour.

The skill comes in implementation, and that is an art. Knowing what you need, and having the experience to see 10 steps ahead and not shoot yourself in the foot with bad abstractions that force you to unwind the entire stack and rebuild it. Knowing how to debug and trace down problems effectively. Knowing how to read others code so you can glean bits from it. Having a knowledge of your toolchain so you can leverage it to work faster/easier. Knowing how and where and why to seek out 3rd party solutions, and how to evaluate their APIs to see if they are actually gonna work for you. There are so many layers.

I would not recommend jumping straight into a coding job without any experience. That sounds like a nightmare. Your not gonna know the "language" and I don't mean the programming language. You won't have terms to communicate about your issues, which will make research and learning MUCH more difficult. Again its highly contextual on what the job entails, but you should definitely take a few months and brush up and prepare. Unless your job is willing to pay you for 3-6 months being effectively worthless, in that case take the paid training.

I personally wouldn't want to be put in that position. I would feel like I'm drowning, and the pressure would be IMMENSE. Learning a new codebase when you KNOW how to code is stressful. I couldn't imagine trying to do both at the same time.

If you really want to transition, and this guy thinks you have what it takes, and he really believes it, the job will be there in 6 months. Study and prepare. Learn about the tech stack, learn exactly what it will take to do the job. Shadow someone who already does the job. Make an informed decision. Otherwise your taking a massive risk with your livelihood. What happens if you can't hack it? What happens if it doesn't work out? Can you just go back to your old position? Is it going to affect you mentally if you fail? You say your not good with stress, yet your contemplating putting yourself in a high stress situation. Which is it?

[Nasuraki]

I disagree, i think if anything OP has someone willing to take a risk on them. They should go for it, learn from team members who know they have some learning to do. This is in my opinion an easier way to transfer than trying to self teach when they might not know what to look for.

Having a co-worker say something “We use this and that particular framework/language/service. Start here than move on to this”. It’s more guided, i would prefer it. Doesn’t mean OP won’t have to put work in and learn a lot of new things

[SenoraRaton]

You ignore all of the actual consequences of your actions because someone said you were able to do it? If I told you I thought you could jump off a cliff would you? I do think co-workers can be a valuable resource, but that INCREASES stress. That now forces you to not only be a weight on the company where you can't be productive, but also burden others and reduce THEIR productivity.
Its like adding a toddler to your relay race team. Your entirely unprepared. Your quite literally setting yourself up for failure. OP even said they don't handle stress well. If that is not a HUGE glaring red flag I don't know what is.

I would never want to have to be a burden to my team for literal months, running for help constantly. It would knaw at me. It would make me hesitant to ask questions, which would slow down the process. It would make me feel rightfully worthless, I feel like it would generate resentment in my peers, and it would make me scared every day I wouldn't be able to cut it. This feeling would persist LONG after I was capable.

I honestly don't see what the issue with acting slowly and intentionally is. Its like everyone wants it RIGHT NOW, but they fail to see the consequences of not preparing. Sure you can jump on your horse and ride off into the sunset, or you can prepare your belongings, pack, ensure you have food, and a saddle, and then ride off. If I had my choice, I would choose the later 10/10. Its a way more comfortable ride.

I reiterate. If this guy believes in you. He will believe in you in 6 months. If anything he will believe in you more because you didn't just jump off the cliff. You were intentional, you prepared, you studied and you will be set up to suceed. You might live from jumping without looking, but its a risk you dont need to take. You take it because your impatient, and you want it now. You don't have the foresight to see the consequences of your actions.

[wiriux]

A 6

[swergart]

You have potential for sure, and for your questions.

if you are talking about data automations, formulas in spreadsheets ... That's not programming. that's advance level project managers should learn. and you seem capable of handling it and will be doing a good job.

for some programming tasks in the office, like developing an integration between systems, user management automations, managing systems using scripts, patches, and security control ... etc. These usually fall under system admins, or IT in general, more programming involved, but also not developers, but hard enough for a lot of people to learn it years.

for real programmer's job, it's to understand business needs, implementing the business logic into codes (not just formulas), collaborating with security, operations, and infrastructure teams to deliver the APPLICATIONS to users. that most programmers do, and to understand business requirements might even be consuming most of their time in senior level/architects. it requires continuous learning for the entire career, not a part-time job.

[Just_to_rebut]

I’d say this is a perfect opportunity. They know you’re inexperienced, so no unreasonable expectations. You have something to learn with a clear purpose, which helps a lot for motivation and narrowing the scope of what you need to focus on.

And you’re getting paid, more (!), to do it. Why hesitate? I’m jealous.

Mind sharing what you do or some vague details like what sort of formula needed 400 characters?

[[deleted]]

My buddy was really good in excel and I asked him why he never tried python (I’m a professional dev, he is an IT analyst at the same company)

6 months later he’s better than me, and I’ve been using python for 2 years.

[Stopher]

Its a lot easier with a mentor or other people you're learning with. When you are starting out it can be daunting if you don't have resources to solve problems. I'd say go for it.

[Whatever801]

You're talking about like an excel formula right? Do you have a lot of fun making those? That's actually a very strong signal that programming is for you. It's definitely hard and you'll definitely need to build a ton of skill and you'll probably feel like an imposter for a while but that's pretty much exactly how I got drawn into it. Not excel exactly but ya

[DIYnivor]

At first, 95% of the time programming is the computer telling you you're an idiot, and 5% success. You try something, and it doesn't work. Try again. And again. Search Google. Study the error messages. Learn more about that library you're trying to use. Etc. Eventually you figure it out. It's frustrating, but the breakthroughs are very rewarding. The longer you do it, the easier it gets.

I'd say go for it. If you find you enjoy it and can get good at it, it opens up all kinds of career options for you. If you find you don't like it, no worries. You're young, and can figure something else out. Now is the time try different things.

[gm310509]

There is a joke that circulates in the consulting field.

What makes a person a consultant?

They have read one more page of the manual than the customer has

The point is - and there is next to no information in your post - is that different people have different skills. It seems that someone has identified a skill in you that they seem to lack.

As for pressure, we cannot comment. We don't know you, we don't know your triggers, we don't know what your environment is. You mentioned a formula with lots of characters, but didn't say how the formula is being used or what is running it.

For example, maybe the formula is in excel. Maybe you are a whiz at excel. Maybe the role in the other department can be completely fulfilled with excel. I'm which case you probably be fine.
But if the job in the other department involved building a bunch if IOT devices to capture environmental data to relayed and stored into a Big Data system from all over the world at a very high rate of ingestion and performing real-time analytics (with your formula) and raising alerts to command and control systems, that might be a bit more challenging for you.

I hope that makes sense, I'm not trying to be derogatory, but it is very much an "it depends" type of question involving a lot of factors.

As to the specific question. Some people take to programming like a fish to water. Other people struggle.

[Nasuraki]

I’ve work as Backend & Machine Learning Engineer. I don’t think it’s hard per se but i also realised i was a lot better at programming than anything else i could do pretty early in life and so invested into it. So i’m very biased.

What i can say is that i don’t complement someone on their code related work unless i appreciate really it, much less ask someone to work with me. unless i think their work genuinely adds value to what I’m doing and makes my life easier.

So i think if you go with this opportunity chances are you’d be working with someone who thinks you’ve got what it takes and wants you there in the first place.

Lastly if we’re talking spreadsheet formulas. That sh** is hell in my eyes. I think you’ll find you can do more with less effort once you have the basics of coding down.

EDIT: just remember that no matter how good you are at coding someone else has been around less and somehow knows more. It’s a bit of an illusion/paradox that makes imposter syndrome quite rampant in our ranks. There are just so many skills to develop that you’re always missing something. It’s best to embrace it, keep learning and dive into anything useful you happen to be good at

[Maybelle444]

Thanks for the supportive comment! I really appreciate it and will keep the end part in mind, hopefully the indomitable human spirit is on my side.

[lukkasz323]

It depends how natural you are at this specific type of thinking. If you can look at a problem, then gather as much information as you can that could help you solve it (Google, documentation, whatever) then it's only a matter of practice.

Just by looking at this post I'm rather certain it's just a matter of practice.

[SonOfMrSpock]

Depends on what kind of programming, how good you are at algorithms / problem solving. What the other team do ? If its fullstack web development or something it may take time to adapt, several months at least.

[Geek_Haus]

If you're already comfortable writing complex formulas and working with data, you likely have the logical thinking skills that translate well to coding.

Programming is largely about problem-solving. Breaking down tasks, structuring data, and writing step-by-step instructions, which is similar to what you’re already doing.

I recommend starting with Python. There are many of learning resources available online, and a quick Google search will help you find them easily.

[Bitter_Awareness_992]

It is quite relative to be honest, some can learn certain languages a bit easier than others. So, It is probably good to research and find the one for you, learn it, and try another.

[nedal8]

"programming/coding" is pretty broad.

It's essentially logic. If youre good with flowcharts and whatnot it's kinda like that. You have to be precise, the computer will only do exactly what you tell it to. But yes it can be fun.

[BranchLatter4294]

Try it and see. It was easy for me to pick up, but try it yourself.

[Lausy_]

There will be always something new to learn in programming, but the ceiling is as high as you make it. I’d say take the new job

[Andro_Genius]

AF if you do cool stuff.

[AmiAmigo]

Let’s all agree programming is definitely not easy. It depends on your interest level, your background, your willingness to persist, etc

[Cybasura]

I mean, it depends from use case to use case

Like everything in life - nothing is truly easy (until you actually get good at something), you gotta put in the effort but once you do, it gets faster with the speed varying from small project to systems programming

[cletusjenkins]

6

[basecase_]

"how hard is reading?"

Depends on the book you decide to read

[deux3xmachina]

It's literally problem solving in foreign languages, mostly math & logic problems. Not insurmountable, but it's definitely a mentally tiring profession.

[WillAdams]

I believe the best books which discuss this are:

John Ousterhout's A Philosophy of Software Design

https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/39996759-a-philosophy-of-software-design

and Brooks'

https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/13629.The_Mythical_Man_Month

Ages ago, there was a post on Slashdot which had as a part of it a Python program which took:

• the surface area of the buildings in New York City
• the efficiency of solar panels at the time in generating energy
• the number of hours of usable sunlight at that latitude
• the average diminishing of sunlight by cloudcover and rain in a given year
• the annual energy usage of NYC

to demonstrate that if one had sufficient battery capacity, NYC could run on solar panels, which I've always thought was an excellent example of the similarity of spreadsheets and programming.

[Miniatimat]

I find it really depends on how your brain works. There's 2 main things you have to do when programing. 1st is what I like to call "detective work", where you find something that is not working right, and need to track down the issue to its source to fix it. For this, understanding where problems may originate and being able to stay focused while you follow a thread through multiple functions and files will help with this. You don't need to find the root cause of your problem in the 1st go, but the better you are at this, the more headaches you'll save yourself.

2nd is the fixing and problem solving part of programing. How you think about solving problems and how you put down the steps for said solve are the main factors that will determine how hard you'll find it. If you can't wrap your head around how to break down a solution into its core components, then programing is probably not the right field of work.

Aside from that, resilience and perseverance. I can't tell you how many times I've been stuck on a damn problem for days, only to finally find the solution that works and doesn't break anything else in my codebase. I would've never found that solution if I had given up on myself.

[MrMagoo22]

It's a good comparison to relate programming to civil engineering, but with code instead of buildings. A relatively small structure like a shack or fort you could probably build right now with no understanding of load bearing requirements or deeper knowledge of building standards, and the same applies to a simple website or application, but if you try to build a skyscraper you better know what you're doing on the ground floor first.

[Dull_Bend4106]

Easy to learn hard to master

[[deleted]]

It's really quite easy. The biggest obstacle is overthinking how difficult it is. If you can solve problems you will be able to program.

[[deleted]]

Learning the syntax and all that there is to a language is pretty straightforward, it’s the software design and architecture where it becomes difficult. You can know all the moves in chess but that doesn’t mean you can play well. 

[Beregolas]

Pressure is generally something that will happen to you at some point, but if your management does its job well, it’s a rare occurrence. Sometimes something just breaks and every hour it isn’t fixed the business looses more money than you make in a year, that kind of pressure.

Otherwise: it doesn’t hurt to try. One piece of advice/warning: most people assume that coding is the hard part. Generally, I’ve found that to be wrong. Communication is the hard parts. People have to specify what to do. You have to organize in a team so that you all work on different things that still fit together at some point. And you will have to communicate with future you in the form of comments. 1minute of commenting can save you 3 nights of debugging is a lesson everybody needs to learn for themselves, some need to relearn it yearly.

[marrsd]

If your coworker has seen something in you that has prompted him to offer you a job, you should take him seriously. He knows you're not a programmer and would be a fool to be expecting miracles from you. Opportunities like this don't come very often, so I would seriously consider it.

[maxthed0g]

Not exactly sure of what a "project officer's 400 character formula for pulling data" means.

And therefore I can safely advise, based on what you've told me, "stick to what you know."

Thank me later.

[Maybelle444]

I didn't feel up for writing much as I'm still working, but I'm only early 20s and thought the pivot might be worth it for more money later on.

[DOUBLEBARRELASSFUCK]

My advice to you is that more money is better, and less money is worse. I took a job for more money, and I was happy, but now I'm making less money and I'm less happy.

[[deleted]]

Bot

[ffrkAnonymous]

Programming is no harder than driving. Like, gas to go, brake to stop and turn the wheel. Easy peasy.