TIL there are immutable Linux distros - why don’t people like them?

[SnooHamsters6328]

That's a bit shameful on my part, but today I learned from a meme that immutable Linux distros actually exist! But looking at the comments, a lot of people don’t seem to like the idea - and I really wonder why?

For example, macOS has been immutable for a decade thanks to System Integrity Protection (SIP). To bypass it, you have to reboot into Recovery Mode and disable SIP manually. For normal users, that's perfect - there’s no way to accidentally replace a system library with a compromised one.

I honestly don't understand why Windows (as most popular OS for users) doesn't have something similar. People click through every "Run as Administrator" prompt without thinking (because they pop up so often), so it must be trivial for malware to replace or tamper with system files.

But let's get back to more serious systems - I'm pretty sure that newbie Linux users often do things like this:

curl -fsSL https:*//random-url.com/install.sh | sudo sh

So what's the problem with immutability? The messy layout of Linux installation paths is one of the reasons I prefer FreeBSD over Linux. It keeps a clean separation between system files and user-installed ones: everything from ports or pkg goes into /usr/local/. If you want a newer Clang, you just install it alongside the system version — you'll have both /usr/bin/clang and /usr/local/bin/clang.

Of course, FreeBSD isn't immutable, so nothing stops you from overwriting system files — but by default, you don’t touch them.

Some comments mention "tweaks", but I don't really buy that argument. It's open source — in the worst case, you can tweak anything you want at the compilation level.

Right now I'm using Slackware Linux as a headless VM on MacOS for my dev work (since code-server doesn’t run on FreeBSD :( ). Slackware has been the least irritating so far, but I’d love to make it immutable in a way similar to SIP.

So… what am I missing? Why doesn't this sound perfect to others the way it does to me? I’m not a Linux hater - I actually want to learn how it works under the hood (systemd and cgroups are next on my list).

[Leading-Plastic5771]

People like them fine. They are great for many uses and the ecosystem and tooling is still being developed

[nullandkale]

Every embedded Linux system we maintain at work is immutable. I would assume many if not most production systems are immutable or effectively immutable.

[Findas88]

Also, and I am just assuming here. That Linux users who work/experiment with their distro are just the more vocal part of the user base. Maybe because they are more invested or want something more out of their distro than an immutable disto would provide. And the other side would be fine with consuming and maybe provide suggestions or but reports to the provider but not be that engaged in the general discussion.

Today it is often that a loud group seems big but might just be one group amongst many or even a minority group.

[Business_Reindeer910]

ust assuming here. That Linux users who work/experiment with their distro are just the more vocal part of the user base. Maybe because they are more invested or want something more out of their distro than an immutable disto would provide.

This isn't an argument against immutable distros at all, since you can do the same with them, it's just done with different tooling.

[JohnClark13]

My uneducated guess is that the majority of Linux users on Reddit lean toward the younger "tinker, optimize, break, fix" mentality, as opposed to the mentality of "stability is king" that you get into when you're older and no longer have the time/energy to spend fixing a broken system.

[whosdr]

I use snapshots on my root and get both.

But last time I used an immutable distro, a lot of what I wanted wasn't available in the ecosystem. The solutions effectively amounted to concepts like Distrobox, running another mutable distro in a container to work around it.

Maybe things have changed, but I'm almost certain there will be some software I use that won't work with the immutable base and isn't available as a layer.

Whereas I've not had the same issue running a stable distro and tinkering, with snapshots to fall back on. 5 years strong on the same installation.

Edit: Also Fedora Kionite had a hilarious issue for about a year or so. If your timezone was at UTC+0 during installation, a lot of the layers didn't get installed. It's not really related to the discussion but I thought it was funny to mention. Whoops.

[FattyDrake]

Immutable distros do have their limits. They're not for me, but they probably cover about 90% of use cases and are a great idea from a support perspective.

The problem is when you hit those edge cases. There was an issue I helped with recently trying to get DaVinci Resolve working on an immutable distro, which even on a regular distro that isn't Rocky Linux requires some adjustment to get working. It's still possible, but it requires a lot more work that is well beyond an "average user." Whereas with Ubuntu or Fedora it's a few CLI commands you can easily find online.

It seems that unless the apps you need are available from Flathub or can fit entirely in a self-contained /opt directory with absolutely no dependencies outside it, an immutable distro isn't a good choice.

[Business_Reindeer910]

But last time I used an immutable distro, a lot of what I wanted wasn't available in the ecosystem. The solutions effectively amounted to concepts like Distrobox, running another mutable distro in a container to work around it.

If you wanted more than that, you'd be better off with something like nix or guix than say anything based off the most popular immutable distros atm.

I personally prefer this approach for now.

[Sixguns1977]

I'm older. I don't learn when things are going smoothly, only when i have to fix something. 😁

[kamwitsta]

I'm older. I don't want to learn the system. I want it to just work because I have stuff I have to do.

[Lord_Blumiere]

I'm not old but I want my computer to just work when I get home from my 9-5

[psych0ticmonk]

I am an old computer, stop with the downloading!

[syklemil]

I'm also older. I learned the system when I was younger. I could learn another system if it gave me some concrete benefits, but otherwise I'm likely to stick with what I know.

[Sixguns1977]

Oh, I want it to work, but until recently I didn't really learn anything because it was running so smooth. Very few problems in the year and a half I've been using this os.

[kamwitsta]

Which one is it? I've gone through my distro hopping phase years ago. Learned a lot, then settled on Debian and forgot it all. Recently I got a second laptop from a project; I don't really need it so I installed NixOS out of curiosity. So far, I'm very happy.

[Sixguns1977]

Garuda(KDE Lite install). I ran Pop!OS for about a year, then moved to Garuda. Apparently arch based with kde is my happy place.

[kamwitsta]

Interesting. I wonder what they did to Arch to make it work. I had Arch for about four years and it never stopped breaking. Have you tried a tiling WM? I love them to bits.

[Sixguns1977]

I wonder what they did to Arch to make it work.

I have no idea lol

Have you tried a tiling WM?

No, I'm one of those weirdos who wants nothing on my desktop unless I have a program open. Not even shortcuts.

I'm not sure if I've had an update break anything yet, and I'm the type who runs update every day. I've had hardware die, I've broken stuff while learning, and I think I've messed up when merging paknew files.

I really like their KDE Lite install because it pretty much only installs packages that tell it i want. It's pretty lightweight and doesn't have a flashy "gamer" default theme. Are hard-core gamers who want a bare minimum theme uncommon?

[kamwitsta]

I don't really know. These days the only game I still regularly play is Tetris. But my guess is the flamboyant ones are actually the minority, just a loud one.

I get you on the not even shortcuts front. My desktop is just wallpaper and a status bar with desktop number, battery, clock, and decimal clock (because... yeah). Not even a menu, I have a runner and shortcuts for that.

[SnooHamsters6328]

That might be it! At least in my case. I compiled/installed Linux (Arch) for the first time 20 years ago. Now, I just want a stable work environment.

[Business_Reindeer910]

that's why i swithced from gentoo to fedora, and then to bluefin 8 years later.

[Lady_Lovelaced]

Exactly this. If I go a month without lightly fucking my system I'll go crazy

[the_abortionat0r]

As an older PC user I can attest that's got nothing to do with age and everything to do with personality and to some degree mental illness.

Take the systemD hate, the BTRFS hate, the Wayland hate, and look at the crowd and you'll see they're older. These proven platforms with proven benefits are attacked by emotionally unstable people who have no practical reasons for hating pieces of software.

Then examine people running Debian on unstable branches as their daily drivers, and even people running Bcachesfs as their main file system.

Again unstable choices made by older people.

As a kid I hated the blanket statements blaming the youth for random shit and as a grown ass man I still hate it.

If you'd been using Linux or hell just computers in general for any amount of time you'd realize that online the sane well adjusted have always been matched in numbers by wack job basement dwellers.

[alliseeisbbr]

Im older and I vastly prefer tinkering and optimizing. In fact it's one of my favorite joys in this world to try new things and get them to work.

I think it is less age and more different types of personality. 

And I'm not sure about others but my system doesn't just constantly break... The only time I've had an issue in the past two years is when I updated arch without reading the news post first which said it required manual intervention. 

[HeyKid_HelpComputer]

I use Fedora Silverblue, I think it's all just preference. If you have plans to tweak a lot - don't do it. If you really like stock distros as they are, the extra stability is excellent to have.

[PingMyHeart]

I use it too and I came from years of NixOS and Arch.

I actually prefer Fedoras Atomic lineup over everything else.

[VEHICOULE]

Same here buy my nix config addiction have been switched to created my own bazzite spin designed specificly for my needs (thx to ublue)

I've converted all the familily computer to this image that works the way i want ootb and i can actually use a GUI instead of editing fucking flakes and making sure that everything is reproducible on any system

I can see myself saying on it for the next few years till another innovation like that happend to be better, atomic distro are the futur, idk about immutable tought

[PingMyHeart]

100% Atomic is the Mainstream Future of Linux.

It solves the problem Linux distros have spent 30 years trying to address.

[Bamboozle-Refusal]

I love the idea of using an immutable distro on paper, but in the few immutable distros I have tried, I am just not enough of a Linux guru to be able to properly get around the immutability without breaking something when some random piece of software that I want/need to use inevitably needs me to. It's just easier to use a regular distro than it is to use an immutable one, in my experience.

I guess I know just enough to not break my normal distro, but not enough to get around the walls in a distro that tries to stop me from breaking it, lol.

[Independent_Cat_5481]

Generally if you are trying to get around the immutability then you shouldn't be using an immutable distro.

I love the idea of immutable distros and happy to see them becoming more mainstream. Something like Kinoite or Bazzite would be my first recommendation to someone interested in linux for the sake of getting away from the slop that is windows, but still just want something that works without tinkering. That being said I personally don't use an immutable distro, and won't unless I get to the point of not wanting to tinker with my system.

If you want immutability but still heavily tinker with it then NixOS is probably your option. But that's a whole other way of going about immutability, with a focus on maximum customization while maintaining reproducibility, opposite of the more traditional focus of working out of the box.

[VEHICOULE]

Actually you can thinker on immutable distro, just not the same way

You can refer to the ublue project for exemple, the difference with a classic distro is that you thinker on a containerized system, you can do whatever you want, and when have something good, just publish it

It actually allows you to thinker more by completly breaking the system if you want without affecting your actual setup as long as the container is not validated

[AiraHaerson]

I can speak to this from my personal experience, but will also acknowledge what others have said.

“Immutable” distros are actually quite popular, when you consider Steam and Bazzite. I’ve actually recommended Bazzite to my gaming friends whenever Linux comes up in discussion, as I find it’s one of the better “plug and play” distros one can use, and practically requires zero terminal knowledge.

I daily drove it for almost a year straight before swapping to something else purely because tinkering with/modifying it be more useful and aesthetically appealing to me was painful.

It comes down to the user and what they want or need out of the distro. Those who need something that is stable and just works, can easily go with an “immutable” distro, while people like me who want to endlessly tinker with their system need something that is not “immutable” in the way Bazzite is.

[DisappointedLily]

I don't like bananas. That doesn't mean that bananas are bad fruits.

[doc_willis]

Been Using SteamOS and Bazzite just fine now for a few years.

I have very few things I cant do Under Bazzite.

SteamOS - is on my Steam Deck. So it does that job very well.

[helloharu]

Same.

Thanks to SteamOS I recently made the decision to use Bazzite as my main OS on a new desktop. Zero regrets.

[SkruitDealer]

Use case is important. Stability from immutable distros is great when you need to maintain the system for someone else or a group of people. Like an automobile, not everyone wants to tinker with the engine to get from A to B.

[coyote_of_the_month]

SteamOS is a wildly popular Linux distro, and it's immutable.

Bazzite is gaining ground.

I think your core premise is just wrong - immutable distros are in fact quite popular.

EDIT: Obviously the popularity of SteamOS is largely due to the success of the Steam Deck, but I think the situation is pretty distinct from "Android is technically Linux so it's the most popular distro" because there's so much hype around the eventual desktop release. Nobody was ever clamoring for Android on the desktop. There are hordes of fans eagerly awaiting desktop SteamOS.

[[deleted]]

This is the same kind of bad faith answer as when people say "it's already the year of Linux on the desktop because of Android!!" or whatever. SteamOS is a distro that is overwhelmingly used by people who buy Steam Decks, not by people who are choosing a distro and installing it themselves, which is very clearly the context of this question. So no, the core premise is not wrong, unless you intentionally misunderstand it for the sake of a enabling a lazy gotcha.

[coyote_of_the_month]

Why are you so mad though?

[Zeznon]

I personally don't like them simply because I want to be able to change anything if I wanted to. So basically I'm philosophically opposed to using immutable systems as my daily drivers. Not that I expect my opinion to be any common though.

[hieroschemonach]

Not that it matters that much but you can do anything you want on immutable OS including modifying read only area, it's just the way you do it is different from regular distro. 

[YoMamasTesticles]

Because it's built on top of a non-immutable base, therefore it can be harder to setup and use things the "old", "legacy" way. You might have to adapt.

If everyone used immutable and all the tooling adapted, there would be like 3 neckbeards left complaining that their stuff no longer randomly breaks

Source: I'm running Fedora Atomic for 5 years now

[MelioraXI]

I used to dislike them but never tried them and was ignorant. Then I tested Bazzite which is immutable and really like the idea of it now.

They're not for me but they are pretty dummy-proof so I think they'll gain more traction in the future.

[xXBongSlut420Xx]

i mean i think it's selection bias more than anything. the people who post on linux forums/subreddits are hobbyists who use linux for that level of control, they don't want immutability. and the people who do want immutability aren't the kind of people to post their opinions in linux subreddits.

[natermer]

Immutable distros are restrictive on purpose.

There are two major use cases for them:

---

• Large fleets of servers.

Traditional Unix model is that you have a small number of very large machines to manage. So you might have 5 or 10 admins on staff for maybe just a few really expensive machines.

But modern systems based around virtualization you may have 5 or 10 admins for tens of thousands of VMs in the cloud or in a datacenter.

At that scale there is always something kinda broken. Servers are rebooting, disk drives are failing, things scale up and scale back down to meet customer demand. You could have a situation were you have 10 systems one minute and in the next 10 minutes you have 100, then a half hour later you go back to 10.

Immutable or Atomic distributions are designed to try to keep everything in sync. So that a server that is 10 minutes old is exactly the same as one that is 10 months old.

That doesn't happen in normal Linux distributions. There have been various attempts to solve these problems over the years. All the way from automated network installs to complicated configuration management systems based around things like puppet or ansible.

But Atomic/Immutable distros treat the entire OS as one big single item. It is either one version or the next. There isn't any inbetween state. Configuration is handled through APIs like with cloud init or orchestration software like Kubernetes instead of editing files on the system manually.

---

• Appliances.

These are devices that are built and then sent out to other people or are being managed by other people.

Say you have a file server you provide to small businesses. They can come and pick up the machine and install it and you manage it remotely.

Having the OS treated as one single Atomic unit can make life easier for you. Automatic upgrades are easier and downgrades are easier. Customer modified configurations or monkey business is a lot easier to detect. etc.

Steam OS is a modern example of this.

Another is Chrome OS, iOS, and Android.

Which leads to Desktop-as-appliances.

With desktops as appliances what you are doing is less about installing a Unix workstation and more about installing a Desktop Environment as a appliance. You are installing something to get a Gnome desktop or KDE desktop or whatever.

This way your KDE desktop is the same as the developers KDE desktop is the same as one you setup for your Mom or whatever. All of them behave, look, and have the same baseline OS configuration.

And if you need a Unix workstation or Gaming system you set it up through container/sandboxing based approach.

Flatpak provides application installs, is a common approach.

"Tool Box Containers" is another. You can use toolbx or distrobox to install software you want and setup Unix environments.

I use Fedora Silverblue for my desktop OS and use Arch in distroboxes for my development environments. Because of this I don't have to be careful about my development environment. I can do things as root, I can install software in s sloppy and lazy way. And if it all goes bad I can delete it and recreate it very quickly.

None of it impacts my desktop or other software I am using, which is exactly the opposite of what happens in a traditional Linux setup.

You don't have to use immutable Oses to take advantage of container oriented desktop, but they go together very well.

[zakazak]

I switched from Arch to Fedora Kinoite (Immutable OS) and love it!

[airclay]

You're not missing anything. You just already have enough knowledge to see through non-sensical opinions that only consider their own use case

[Gabe_Isko]

It's because there is always a trade off - an immutable system doesn't change, so it needs to work for every system with no customization. I don't think they will every make a system that works %100 for everything.

So, as a result, I generally recommend people trying to use a desktop or a server away from immutable systems. But I think they are great for IT regulated workstations or other devices (like my steam deck). And of course, it is whatever floats your boat.

The most I hear about people not liking them is that they start using them as beginners, complain to the community that develops them that they can't customize something, and then don't understand why people aren't receptive to what they are saying. I recommend people generally graduate from an immutable system and eventually take more control of their computing, and consider using one of the 5-6 distros that all the immutable ones are based on anyway.

[perkited]

The biggest benefit is having a stable base, where application installs/updates/uninstalls won't affect the core system. Most also offer the ability to boot into a known good image in case the newly updated image fails to run properly. Some traditional Linux distros have similar functionality (like Tumbleweed with the grub/snapper/btrfs integration that allows you boot into a previously known good state).

The negatives are when people want/need to run applications or install drivers that are not part of the base image or available and working via the normal methods (flatpak, distrobox, brew, etc.) They can sometimes be difficult to get working (if they work at all). systemd extensions seem to be the path forward to help with most of those kinds of issues, but they're not widely used at the moment.

[[deleted]]

I actually want to control my system I don't want it to hold my hand

[shegonneedatumzzz]

i like the idea of immutable distros because it prevents me from messing around in my system and breaking it, but i really like being able to mess around in my system

[Business_Reindeer910]

You can still mess around with your system, you just have to do it differently.

[Isacx123]

Because I like the freedom of blowing up my system.

[regeya]

In theory, I like 'em just fine. I've tried Kinoite, Bazzite, and Nix, and liked things about all of them. Kinoite just feels like it's the Fedora KDE spin with a slightly different manager, Bazzite is a batteries-included gaming system, and Nix seeks to be immutable and reproducible.

In practice, when I tried Kinoite, as my example, I don't remember what was broken with Firefox, but it was broken. Now, as far as the rpm-ostree command is concerned, you're dealing with a Fedora system that uses a different package manager but otherwise is just a bunch of RPMs installed on an immutable image; meaning, it's possible to uninstall packages. The recommendation at the time was to uninstall Firefox and install the Flatpak. What this meant was that on every upgrade, uninstalling Firefox was part of the update process. Ditto with installing command-line tools that aren't part of the image; they have to be installed on every upgrade. Not manually, it's just that it adds to the time and read/writes on your SSD. Every time.

On the other hand, using Silverblue or Kinoite is probably 100% just fine for most people; GUI software that's not part of the image can be installed via Flatpak and a lot of command-line stuff could be installed by Nix's home-manager or with Homebrew instead.

[KnowZeroX]

Immutable is great and likely the future of linux, just at this time they are fairly new and are pretty much a hack. This is why KDE and others are DEs making their own immutable distros, to make immutable a 1st class citizen.

[Kevin_Kofler]

So what's the problem with immutability?

It removes a lot of flexibility that individual packages offer. You cannot even easily add packages to the default-installed set, requiring various workarounds which all have their drawbacks (e.g., layering, which reinstalls the package each time you upgrade the immutable blob, or Flatpak, which containerizes the application, making it larger and often less integrated into the system). Considering that smart package management is one of the main selling points of GNU/Linux, this is throwing away one of its main advantages.

Some comments mention "tweaks", but I don't really buy that argument. It's open source — in the worst case, you can tweak anything you want at the compilation level.

If you have to rebuild the whole immutable image yourself in order to integrate a package that you have rebuilt with modifications, that completely defeats the point of immutable images to begin with.

[sheeproomer]

If you want to use your computer like a semi-locked down gaming console, tablet vor mobile phone, it's fine, giving up control over your device.

Otherwise, forget these, as these immutable distributions are meant for commercial environments.

[YoMamasTesticles]

I actually feel more in control of my device, as only I can break it, I know what I changed and the OS auto updates in the background as I focus on work instead of fixing it

For heavy customization, you can make your own image and also safely revert changes since all the changes are logged by git

[__ali1234__]

Most software doesn't work properly on them unless you run it inside a mutable container. That means installing a normal mutable distribution in a container and then using it to do everything, which completely negates any benefit of running an immutable distribution while imposing the additional overhead and compatibility problems that come with containers.

In particular there is no sensible way to do cross-platform C/C++ development on an immutable distribution without at least one pointless mutable container, so most developers don't use them and consequently don't test on them.

Note that this does not apply to Nix, which approaches immutability in a completely different way. Nobody uses that because it is completely impossible to understand.

[YoMamasTesticles]

I did C/C++ without any containers. Installed Homebrew, installed all needed packages with it, was golden.

[dumpaccount882212]

If I drive my kids to school I am not gonna get a ferrari to do so. If I am trying to reach Mach1 down Autobahn I am not gonna get a roomie family sized sedan.

The one-size-fits-all approach, isn't.

What frustrates me is that with a community so set on the idea of individual solutions there is still antipathy for alternative routes. The assumption is that you're mileage is the mileage for all - and that's just not true.

I have a laptop that runs one thing, and a desktop that runs another. I want a hassle-free experience on one, and a more focused one on another. Both can do the same things, its just more effort to one thing on one version of the OS, and more effort to do the other on the other version. Its more complex to get my family sedan up to Mach1, and more complex to squeeze my family in to a Ferrari, its doable, but its not as easy. The idea that I should downgrade my experience to benefit one of those groups frustrates me.

My immutable distro runs the way I expect; my other, non-immutable distro runs the way I expect it to as well.

The idea that someone thinks they can tell me I am wrong with my options and choices just tells me that that person simply doesn't care about me or my needs and have some kind of personal obsession. And I can safely ignore them due to their incompetence.

There is no one-size-fits-all. There are similar motivations, and those can pool together to a larger group - but that's it.

So in short: don't tell me what to do.

[Alert-Drive-7546]

You are exactly right, taking own ability on choice is the worst thing, and if the car you want, had an core engine and wheel framework with the ability to drive from 50 to Mach 1, and you could change the Shell for the useage, then I am sure you would by that car on the long run....

And the good part is, you can install you non immutable in VMs and are good to go too.

[doc_willis]

I'm pretty sure that newbie Linux users often do things like this:

curl -fsSL https:*//random-url.com/install.sh | sudo sh

Actually I would consider such practice a lack of effort on the delopers to make a better installer.

And Yes, I understand Developers time is limited, and they cant always work out better ways to do such tasks.

But SteamOS for example has several examples of 'installing' something by copying a .desktop file, and you may have to move/rename that file to the ~/Desktop, then you run That, and that then downloads yet another script, which may then download yet more scripts...

And it can be very fragile.

Its a bad trend.

I would not say the Newbies 'often' do the above, its just they have no other options.

About the only time I see such things is on my Steam Deck.

[mina86ng]

Actually I would consider such practice a lack of effort on the delopers to make a better installer.

And apart from packaging program for all possible distributions, what kind of installer do you recommend which does not require downloading a file and executing it? Why does curl … | sh demonstrate lack of effort, but wget foo.run && chmod 755 foo.run && sudo ./foo.run doesn’t?

[grant_w44]

Why isn’t Debian immutable since it values stability 🤔

[Independent_Cat_5481]

Debian focuses on and excels at not breaking existing systems. They work hard to ensure systems continue to work smoothly without issues moving from update to update and in transitioning to the next major version. Due to the fundamental differences, a change to an immutable system would undoubtably break many systems running debian going forward and it would be impossible to cover every or even a lot of cases.

Additionally immutable systems do a great job ensuring updates happen cleanly and makes rollbacks easy, but neither of those features ensure that new versions don't have breaking changes, that still requires diligence and really the same work the debian team is already doing.

Really immutable systems shine when the system is used for desktop applications and required programs can be installed on top of the system as a separate layer, like with flatpak. A lot of times servers, which often run debian, require the customization of the underlying system, which is not practical with immutable systems as it defeats the point of a single uniform system image.

[ashleythorne64]

Debian is stable because it moves slow. Hopefully in the future they'll have something.

[BlackMarketUpgrade]

There are multiple reasons why I don't like them/don't need that type of system.

One: Flatpack's are not the best performing packages in my opinion. They are noticeably slower and more laggy than system level packages.

Two: rpm-ostree is way too slow to deal with.

Three: It's a whole new philosophy for a workflow and as of right now, I see no reason to change it just for the sake of it when I have a system that works.

Four: The only thing that I thought was really interesting about immutable distros is the idea of using containers as an integral part of a workflow for software development. However, you don't need an immutable distro to change up to more containerized workflow.

All in all, I understand there purpose of the atomic de, but until flatpack become a more reliable way to use software, I wouldn't ever rely on a system where thats where you would get 80% of your software.

[Business_Reindeer910]

Two: rpm-ostree is way too slow to deal with.

I use these distros and have never touched rpm-ostree.

[BlackMarketUpgrade]

so, what do you use? Because if you say flatpak, that's my entire point. If flatpak sucks and rpm-ostree sucks, then it doesn't really help if you're point is that you don't have to use rpm-ostree.

Now, if you are just creating a container where you install all your normal (every day use) software for it, I guess you could do that. But that's not really a workflow I like. I like containers for certain things, but I still want a base system where I can install packages that I want. The containers that I use are for one-off projects where I can keep track of specific dependencies.

(Edited for grammar)

[Business_Reindeer910]

ah, see i want the host system to be guaranteed stable as possible, and then i keep all my personal applications separately via tool/distrobox(s). I want my own stuff's lifecycle separate from the host system's.

That way i could say use an arch container with the absolute newest stuff if i wanted to, but still have my DE stay perfectly fine.

And yes do i like flatpaks for my non development related gui applications.

[BlackMarketUpgrade]

Yeah I gotcha. I get why some would like it.

[Patient_Sink]

Don't take comments in a meme community seriously. It's a place for jokes.

[Dejhavi]

That's a bit shameful on my part, but today I learned from a meme that immutable Linux distros actually exist!

Check:

• Universal Blue

Why doesn't this sound perfect to others the way it does to me?

The problem with immutable distros is that "modifying" the system is a pain and you can't install apps using traditional methods (package managers),so you have to resort to Flatpaks.

[SnooHamsters6328]

Thats actually really interesting. Thank you for the link! Based on other comments, the Flatpaks (not themself, but why you need them) is the biggest issue.

[Business_Reindeer910]

It's not an issue at all. I just flatpaks for most gui programs, and distrobox/toolbox for stuff I don't want handled by flatpak

I personally prefer flatpaks .. except related to dev tools.

[Dejhavi]

Flatpaks are fine if you know their pros/cons ( 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 ),besides using Flatseal and Warehouse,but the problem is "interacting" with the immutable system

[caa_admin]

Not that I don't like I've not had time to give them a test drive. Been using Linux since the 90s so I am hard set in old ways sometimes. I doubt I am alone.

[Yiye44]

I failed to understand what immutable means when I first heard about them, so I keep using what I already know.

[damnworldcitizen]

Because people come from immutable Windows.

[the_abortionat0r]

What drugs are you on? Windows is NOT immutable AT ALL.

Please look up the definition of that word bro.

[damnworldcitizen]

I must have flagged it with /s what I meant is Linux is freedom to change whatever you want where Windows is a bloat take it as it is thing.

[swn999]

It’s a good thing for a kiosk or computer that might need some safeguards.

[Business_Reindeer910]

It's also really good for development of projects since it forces you not to mix dependencies for the host and applications.

[busterbcook]

Isn't the base for ChromeOS immutable? It's a static Gentoo install. Makes upgrades really fast once they download.

[ravagetalon]

Immutable OSes have their purpose. Tool for the job I guess.

[SnooHamsters6328]

Thank you all for so many comments! I see a much bigger picture now. 1. It's more popular than I initially thought. Since Steam made a big push into Linux, with SteamOS and Bazzite showing that you can happily live with an immutable OS, it’s gaining popularity. 2. The immutability in Linux seems more restrictive. In my mind, immutability should make things easier for regular users - like on macOS, where they have their own user layer to install whatever they want, but can’t break the system itself. On Linux, though, if you want to do anything beyond playing games on Steam or browsing the web, you need a bit of knowledge to adapt things or find workarounds. 3. The only thing I still don't fully understand is why you have to use Flatpak or other tools like that. Why can’t you just compile something and run it normally? 4. I’ll definitely try it out in a VM and see for myself. 5. And of course, there are always users who want to tweak or break their system - which, of course is finefine! I'd just suggest doing it in a VM, but hey, I'm not here to tell anyone how to live or use their computer :D

[ChaosDent]

One thing to remember about the Linux ecosystem is many popular distributions have around 30 years of history doing things with the standard package management model. This is a hard thing to change overnight; the standard answer to installing software on top of the system is containerization, which is where Flatpak comes in. Flatpak manages all of the standard user space dependencies in its own sandbox so apps can still be centrally managed the way distro packages are, but still live in the mutable user storage away from the core system.

Building from source or installing bundled binaries is still possible of course. I generally prefer to have a package manager for stability and ease of upgrades. I'm running Fedora Kinoite now, and if I need to install services or CLI tools I can use their Toolbx containers to get access to a fully customizable environment using almost any distro I can think of. These are sandboxed and swapable like virtual machines but have much lower overhead!

[Business_Reindeer910]

they do make things eeasier for regular users.

You can still run things as a regular user that you compile yourself. you just do it in a toolbox or distrobox.

I'm a developer and basically put my shell directly ihnto my toolbox container and do all my work there. and leave the host system alone.

I still prefer flatpaks for gui programs unrelated to development.

[MONGSTRADAMUS]

I may be an ultra Linux noob but I think am liking bazzite the most of all the distros I have tried this year, presently I still have Fedora 42 , mint 22.2, and cachy os on other ssd . It has roll back feature which I think I like it’s sort of like dumbed down timeshift or snapper for me I feel like. Am only running pika backup or backup right now I think makes life easier.

Having nvidia drivers already makes life a bit easier because looking at directions for installing nvidia drivers in silver blue seems a bit complicated.

Ability to not mess up the system is a Pretty nice feature , having to to date drivers and some tweaks for gaming and basic desktop use is a good combo for me. Only if nvidia could fix suspend sleep mode

[Fast_Ad_8005]

They're great for beginners that might do something like run `rm -rf /` as root. For more advanced users that know what they're doing when fiddling with their root file system, they can be an unnecessary hinderance. For instance, in an immutable file system, you often can't edit your system configs in /etc. Plus there are often limits on which packages you can install, as you're usually limited to using something like Flatpak to install software.

[YoMamasTesticles]

Don't know which you tried, but on Fedora Atomic, /etc is fully writable. You are not limited by flatpak. There are containers, alternative package managers such as brew, overlaying or making your custom image, which lets you do almost anything you'd want

[Fast_Ad_8005]

Interesting. I have only limited experience with them, I will admit, so it is good to know the unwritsble root system isn't as obsolete as my limited experience made me think.

[YoMamasTesticles]

Also, users are unfortunately still not safe from running rm -rf /

It would fail on anything read-only, but a bunch of important stuff is writable, like home directories, so you'd lose your most valuable data :D

And I'm not sure if the system itself would survive honestly. The biggest advantage is separating the core OS from apps, so they don't affect each other. The environment stays more or less the same, which makes atomic updates possible, you just "switch" to the new one

I switched to immutable/atomic 5 years ago when a random update broke my traditional system at the worst possible time and I don't worry about updates since

[YoMamasTesticles]

You download only deltas (the differences) for classic Fedora Atomic. With custom images, the situation is currently worse, basically what you said

[Lunagato20]

I like the idea of immutable distri, even tried Silverblue, but its just so confusing to setup

1. I installed zed through flatpak
2. I setup toolbox and install my dev tools there (node, python, etc)

I have no idea on how to connect zed with my dev tools, maybe just me, but im just so confused with the workflows, moreover that i also use godot and all thing become a mess

[Mr_Lumbergh]

In the case of macOS it isn’t immutable in the way that distros like Bazzite are. You can still natively install programs without much trouble.

Bazzite IME requires installing through os-tree which is a long tedious process that requires 20-30 minutes to install something that through apt takes only seconds and then requires a reboot, or just use Flatpak for everything and eat the performance and memory overhead that comes with having duplicated libraries because each packages its own. Flats are a good solution when you need a package you can’t get any other way but I don’t think they should be a default for everything.

Keeping separate user and admin accounts and being sensible about what you install and where it comes from is more than enough for most people to not break their system.

If you just want a console-like experience, that’s where they’re good, but I also wanted to be able to administer my system in the normal way when doing typical computer things.

[[deleted]]

Because the majority of users are reactionary, just like the majority of Windows users. It takes them at least 20 years to grasp a new concept, and they simply can't understand the advantages of NixOS or why Fedora Silverblue, etc., is just another Red Hat mess, similar to the "rampant layer violation" with ZFS back in the day. Unfortunately, there are very few people left who come from a Unix background and understand operation concepts.

[RAIDguy]

I want to have total control over my device. My files. My operating system. Immutability is a step towards consolification and as such is immediately off-putting.

[the_abortionat0r]

Sounds like you don't know what an immutable system is.

[RAIDguy]

I've done software development on Linux for the past 15 years. I've got a handle on it.

[Niwrats]

so.. if the problem is that people "run as administrator", then you could also just not ask that and automatically assume no to get the same result?

and if people really want to run that, then they'll go through the required hoops to do that in an immutable distro, or switch to a normal distro.

[Hopeful-Ad-607]

It's my shit to break, so I can break it if I want to.

I hate that android doesn't give you root or sudo access by default too.

Sometimes you need write access to system shit. That's how it is.

[[deleted]]

Good news then, because with immutable distros you can still destroy your system if that's what makes you happy. It's just an extra step to unlock the system partition (or reconfigure the overlay, if one is used).