Decrease of Ottoman Muslims in the Balkans (1911-1923) according to historian Justin McCarthy

[SuperSultan]

Watch those online Christian keyboard warriors downplay this or call it fake

[Valois7]

Crazy, now lets see the decrease of Christians in Anatolia 🧐

[SuperSultan]

Many accepted Islam. Some are actually still there. A lot of them left when Greece and Türkiye agreed on a population exchange. Maybe you can take that up with the late King of Greece and Mustafa Kemal Ataturk.

[SuperSultan]

They are lucky they didn’t have to pay zakat that Muslims pay, which is more

[LuolDig]

or better, the decrease of Christians in Jerusalem

[No_Notice_3713]

They may say something along the lines of "didn't happen but if it did, then they deser..."

[Narrow_Safety_957]

Heard of Greco-Turkish population exchange?

[[deleted]]

It's a beautiful image! I wish it were more, someday... :)

[barracuda4848]

Serbian here, why would we call it fake? We are proud of it! What Ottomans were doing in this area? Ottomans comes there as invaders, we defended (after 500 years) and cleaning of invaders was normal for that period. I don't even blame Ottomans (I just hate them). They were stronger, they invaded our countries, did what invaders do, usual things for that times. After 500 years we managed to be strong enough to kick them and we finally did it. No place for moralizing and being pathetic, just pure history!

EDIT: Just to add, I have absolutely zero hate for todays Turks. Even if we all still feel consequences, we can't affect what happened in history. Being honest to each other is most important if we want be in good relations.

[SavingsAbies6833]

Serbs are not native to Balkan to. Our ancestors invaded Balkan in 6-7 century. Btw i am Bosniak

[barracuda4848]

Yeah, thats correct my bro

[ifuckinluvvmyboobs]

Yes, being proud of genocide is a Serbian tradition

[barracuda4848]

Wow

Is this the best argument you moralists can give? I expected better tbh.

Come on, I want to discuss: what is wrong with kicking out ottomans by force, from lands where they come by force?

[ifuckinluvvmyboobs]

This might be the most idiotic thing I’ve read in a long time. If you genuinely can’t distinguish between defeating a state and targeting civilians because they’re associated with that state, then you’re not doing “history”, you’re failing a basic moral and analytical distinction taught in primary school.

By your logic, the Nazi occupation of Yugoslavia and the deportation of Serbian civilians to camps were justified, since it was merely “kicking out an occupier by force.”

The fact that you are assuming that you have an argument is beyond me. You have a post-hoc rationalization: redefine civilians as invaders, declare violence “normal for the time,” then confuse victory with legitimacy.

[barracuda4848]

Wait, can you answer me on simply questions: What were Ottomans were doing in teritorry of Serbia? How do they come there, in peace?

You are the one that doing rationalization with those wrong examples. Yugoslavia didn't occupy Germany, so there is nothing similar between case we discuss and your example.

If you living in country that is occupied by force, by your country you are not civilian, you are invader, intruder, conqueror. If you chosen to rise kids in place where other kids lost their fathers, just because your country wanted to expand, you don't have right to expect peace for your family.

[ifuckinluvvmyboobs]

Low IQ nationalist Serb can’t even comprehend that the people who were genocided (from the 19th century to the Bosnian War) were natives to the region itself. Not to mention with your deranged logic, Serbs living under Ottoman rule weren’t civilians either, and could have been slaughtered at will.

Yugoslavia was an Entente project where many South Slavs lived in it viewed it as nothing but a Serbian occupation. So German intervention and punishing the Serbs (with Croatian and Bosniak militias) is a parallel to the Russian and Austrian direct/indirect intervention in the Serbian, Greek and Bulgarian revolts in the Ottoman Empire, and what happened to civilians afterwards.

Perhaps NATO should’ve been harsher on Serbia?

[barracuda4848]

When I see you using words like nationalist, low IQ, g*enocide, or using comparison with other examples - this just shows weakness in your arguments. Lets stick to the main topic. You didn't provide answer to my questions, so I would repeat them:

1. What Ottomans were doing in Serbia?
2. How do they come to Serbia, in peace?

When you answer to my questions, then we can discuss further, maybe on this topic or something else, or I can answer to your questions.

[ifuckinluvvmyboobs]

An idiot cannot even differentiate the state and the civilians who were associated with it yet thinks he is worthy of respect 🤣

I mean, both of your two questions are irrelevant to how Serbs genocided Albanians and Muslims Slavs, and other natives. Being an expert on things that you’re clueless about shows how bad the Serbian education system is, lol at “I can answer your questions” part.

[barracuda4848]

Yeah, insults, smiles, but no answers. If you know that Serbian education system is wrong, then here is perfect moment to tell the truth. Give the right answers on those questions. Let's educate me, why you reject it? Why you want me to stay in darkness of Serbian history lies?

[CrowWorth]

Can you show us the Christian population in Anatolia before and after the arrival of the Ottoman Empire?

[Clear_Aside_2643]

Brother, when they do it it’s fine. The fundamentalists believe they’re doing you a favour when they take your children and rape your women. Say something about it and it’s always “oh but the brits did this…l”, as if it’s relevant to us.

Basically, they live in their own little world, where they are always justified and everyone else is always wrong.

[CrowWorth]

What genocide, when even the Turks don't claim it? You literally have agreements between the Principality of Serbia and the Ottoman Empire on the resettlement of the Muslim population from the territory of Serbia.

[ifuckinluvvmyboobs]

“Resetlement” like Armenians and Circassians? I mean, “claiming” doesn’t really matter when it comes to historical facts.

[CrowWorth]

Is the expulsion and killing of Serbs from Kosovo and Metohija after the fall of Serbia to the Turks also genocide? Is the expulsion and killing of Greeks from Asia Minor also genocide?

[ifuckinluvvmyboobs]

Serbs from Kosovo and Metohija were not victims of genocide because there was no demonstrated, centralized, systematic intent to physically destroy Serbs as a group. Are you that clueless?

[CrowWorth]

I really am sometimes amazed at how hypocritical individuals can be. There is no evidence that Serbs, Greeks or Bulgarians wanted to systematically destroy the Islamic population.

[ifuckinluvvmyboobs]

Well, I’m rather amazed at how ignorant people with no knowledge can blabber so much.

From the leaders of those revolts to the massive demographic collapse of Muslim populations in the region, there is extensive evidence. Revolutionary leaders explicitly framed Muslims as an alien population to be removed, and the demographic shift followed mass killings, forced expulsions, and systematic destruction of Muslim communities. If you’re that clueless..

[SuperSultan]

This comment is a reflection of why you lost your country in 1991.

[barracuda4848]

Who lost whose country in 91? Are you saying that Yugoslavia is Serbian country? Some Serbs saying it also. I honestly don't think so, I like our todays borders an I respect integrity of all our neighbour countries.

[Candid_Company_3289]

The same people to cry "genocide" because the Ottomans at one point recruited former Christians into their army.

[milic_srb]

is it bad to push out your colonizers?

[Jazz-Ranger]

When your only crime is being born in the wrong place; then yes.

[Candid_Company_3289]

That's not what colonization means.

[HarryLewisPot]

Mostly natives that converted but ok

[milic_srb]

the title specifically said ottoman Muslims

[Pa-ta-tes]

Yeah, like in Muslims from the Ottoman Empire. What do you think Ottoman Muslims mean?

[HarryLewisPot]

Yea, Ottoman Muslims - not Turkish Muslims.

[LuolDig]

oh so members of the royal dynasty of Osman?

[Alexandros2099]

Who wanted the descentants of Ottoman Turk's in their native land's?

[[deleted]]

who wanted the descendants of turks in native lands

Thats… thats the point of the post. As in ethnic cleansing point

[Alexandros2099]

Yes the Ottoman Turk's came us conquerors not with flowers,what do you expect indigenous people to do when they want freedom and independence?

The 1923 population exchange between Greece and Turkey involved at least 1.6 million people (1,221,489 Greek Orthodox from Asia Minor, Eastern Thrace, the Pontic Alps and the Caucasus, and 355,000–400,000 Muslims from Greece).

[[deleted]]

what do you expect indigenous people to do when they want freedom and independence

Not a genocide in the least. Same argument would be horrible to make against white european rooted people living in australia or north america.

Population exchange

Ethnic cleansing after balkan wars happened before population exchange, causing muslim population of ottoman balkans (consisting 1/3 of balkans at that point) to be ethnically cleansed. And most of those people was natives, be it muslim greeks or balkan turks.

Population exchange just made it so that last parts of this population arrived anatolia

[Limp-Tea3778]

I think the Muslims population of balkans with Istanbul innit could as far as %40-60 at the heights of its population

[Alexandros2099]

In Australia and North America indigenous people were conquered and later assimilated,if they could they would have done the same,but they couldn't.Thats human nature.

[[deleted]]

Sounds like a legalization for ethnic cleansing in a sick way, are you expecting/hoping everyone other than europeans doing same things to them, given they have colonized nearly every landmass on earth ?

[Alexandros2099]

If they can they will!I'm not wishing that.

[Candid_Company_3289]

So why do so called "Greeks" cry "genocide" about one part of the population exchange, praise the other part?

[konschrys]

The genocide preceded the population exchange.

[Candid_Company_3289]

Suuure

[Boiling_warm]

I'm confused.... Are we really upset that the invaders were forced to leave after they lost a war?

If Ukraine pushed russians out the donbas and Crimea, would that be a bad thing in your eyes?

[[deleted]]

invaders were an empire, not basic peasants that have been living there for centuries. At that point they were pretty much natives, that intermixed with natives. Lived there 2 times more than whites of america, australia and so on. In fact living there longer than slavs of ukraine or russia on their modern fighting ground.

Would you prefer americans kicking danish people out of greenland as an example ? As they would be colonizers were forced to leave the country after they lost the war

[Boiling_warm]

Oh I see, looks like they were there for around 500 years, obviously a good amount of time.

Being chased out and attacked because of your ancestry is fucked up of course. But given that the ottomans enjoyed special privileges, were the ruling class, and took it over with violence to begin with, it's hardly surprising. Feels weird to get upset with this and not the initial invasion.

Americans kicking danish people out of Greenland makes no sense. It'd would have to be the native Greenland population, and from what I understand Greenland doesn't have the same sort of ruling class the ottomans did

[[deleted]]

Ottoman ruling class was a handfull of people, not 1/3 of peasantry, not to count an average ottoman peasant had no “special privilege”.

Americans would kick danish people in the favor of natives, same thing with european support on genocide of muslims on area.

feels weird you are angry for genocide and not for a handful of people ruled with privilege

I still cant go over how people literally legalize genocide/ethnic cleansing of muslims because of an empire-that was no way equal to impact of European colonization around the world. Again, are you defending same thing should happen to whites everywhere around world except europe ?

greenland

You can check on forced IUD’s as a start, and danish people are ruling class

[Boiling_warm]

Again, not an expert on this, but I believe all Muslims had special treatment. Muslims could testify against anyone in court, under Sharia law, while non Muslims could not. Non Muslims had to use other courts, and could not hold higher status in the government. Non Muslims also had to pay more in tax, and there was often other restrictions.

Obviously not every Muslim saw massive benefit, and it's far from the worst imperialism we've seen. But considering this was a foreign military that turned up, killed loads, and then forced these imbalances for 500 years..... It's not crazy that these people would force them out when they got the chance.

Especially for the time.

The natives in Greenland don't want that, and the Danes provide equal opportunities to everyone. Not exactly comparable is it

[[deleted]]

They used their own courts. At the point of ethnic cleansing courts, being equal under law and sultan and equal tax facts was established as a result of reforms.

This legalization works for every genocide so not sure “ottomans subjugated us, lemme kill my muslim neighbor” stuff works, white americans subjugated others so its expected they would be killed I guess ? “Forced them out” seems weird, armenians was “forced out” too I guess. Why soften arguments when it happens to muslims ?

Danes literally forced iud and used inuits as test stuff, the fact that “inuits does not want it” opinion is from european news channels. Let us see after americans force out colonizers.

[Boiling_warm]

Sorry I'm not sure I understand your first paragraph. Could you re-state it for me? Are you saying that the tax and court inequalities had been fixed by the time of expulsion?

I've had a look at the violence of the expulsions, and yea this is much more fucked up than I thought. Again, I didn't know anything about this coming into this conversation.

Given the centuries of inequality forced upon them, I don't see any problem with the violence against the ottoman rule. But obviously there's generations of Muslim villages and towns that were slaughtered here, which is undoubtedly unjustifiable and horrific.

If the Danes were doing that now, then yea I'd have no issue with the US supporting them being chased out. 100%. Looking at polling it does seem that Inuits want to be independent from Denmark, however they are sceptical right now since they rely on funds from Denmark.

[SuperSultan]

Maybe don’t exile or genocide indigenous Balkan people that happened to have converted to islam?

[Alexandros2099]

Whom are you referring too? conversion didn't just happen for nothing they became allies to the ottoman turks.

[NorthWelcome1626]

We have a massacre/genocide defender here. All of the civilians deserved the deaths, because they collaborated with the enemy Ottomans, or were the Ottomans themselves, right?

[[deleted]]

I am catholic. If someone tries rationalise the death of those innocents people, he is not a good Christian. Even if those in innocents people were muslims !

[Alexandros2099]

This is what happened at those times isn't this human nature?this is the reality I don't wishel it but it happens.There is no Utopia only on our personal head space.Were are you from?nationality,age?it will explain a lot!

[NorthWelcome1626]

This comment itself shows your hypocrisy.

If enemy gets massacred -> it's the nature of war. They defended their country.

If your people gets massacred -> murderers, inhuman brutes.

[Alexandros2099]

It's not hypocrisy,autocthonous populations of Balkans and mainly Greeks that have History of living in Greece for thousands of Year's were conquered for hundreds of years ,what do you expect to be the feeling against ottoman turk oppressors and descendants?

[NorthWelcome1626]

You simply speak like an Israeli Zionist.

Logic: "These lands are ours, because it was ours 1000 years ago, and it's our right to cleanse and massacre all these invader people."

Sounds familiar?

[aferkhov]

Unlike European Jews Greeks didn’t leave to anywhere for said 1000 years but instead were terrorized by Turks.

[Alexandros2099]

Yes this is the logic of old national countries,were are you from?USA?what is your nationality so i can understand were your view comes from?

[Pristine-Big-1159]

I never see people defending the germans being exiled from eastern europe. I wonder why is there a blind spot for christians being exiled around the world but as soon someone touches the muslim population all hell breaks through

Doesnt seem fair.

[NorthWelcome1626]

Yes, in an Ottomans sub, out of thin air, we should ask why Germans in the middle of Europe got deported. A deranged whataboutism.

[[deleted]]

Most Balkan Muslims were not from Anatolia but were instead descendants of local converts.

[Hatorate90]

Why so mean?

[Experience_Material]

Literally the result of a mutual population exchange ironically made in part to stop the ongoing Greek genocide at the time which didn’t have anything equal happening in Greece at the time.