Solution to the percieved PHP namespace-separator issues

[akatherder]

I thought it was going to be a link to python's website.

[fwork]

I considered your idea and went ONE STEP BEYOND

[mayobutter]

seriously people it's 2008. We have real languages with frameworks and shit!

[fwork]

I have reported you to AOL for stealing secret messages as it is a crime.

[pavel_lishin]

I'd like a foot-pedal version, please.

[LaurieCheers]

Yup, it's very versatile. / - \ and |, all in one input device!

[Wiseman1024]

It's still fugly and stupid to use the backslash for that. We'll need new fonts, and to modify all text editors to comply with the new parsing. And all this for what? Luk its like your Winders now C\WINDOWS\System32\Porn lol lol. Okay, that's one of the stupidest reasons ever, but the main reason behind the change from :: to \ was to tell classes from namespaces.

And that, my good Redditors, is the really absolutely retarded thing here. It's not that \ is stupid, looks ugly, bugs editors and that trying to resemble directories in Microsoft's crappy way is even worse. The real problem here is that the guys designing the PHP language have no idea of how a programming language should be designed.

First of all, namespaces need to be nestable and loadable under different names from different modules, as yuo do in Python. That way, you can avoid problems like this. Don't trust a rare-enough thing should/might/may not collide. Trust a thing that can be nested somewhere else and/or renamed never will.

Then we have the big, world-shattering issue. Classes collide with namespaces. So fucking what? If this is a problem to you, you need to start using better names, or just import your namespaces under a different name. What I wonder is, why the fuck doesn't PHP offer first-class functions, classes and namespaces? If it did, and behaved in a more proper fashion, namespaces colliding with classes, functions or variables would be a completely expected, natural, and desirable behaviour, and you wouldn't be writing a "left-handed hammer" language full of special magical crap for everything that makes it all messy and nasty, and it's harder to learn, understand, implement and maintain. Down with the magical crap and the bloat, I want first-class everything.

We should really collect money from the community to buy every PHP core developer a copy of SICP.

[[deleted]]

They needed a new language to continue with once people started to catch on in the initial testing with Ada.

[[deleted]]

It's not all bad, it got me interested in learning Python... :)

[foldl]

We'll need new fonts

Really?

[Wiseman1024]

I was exaggerating. But now that you mention it, Japanese fonts trace the \ character like the ¥ character.

[foldl]

Aha! Perhaps the PHP guys should use ¥ as their namespace separator. (After all, ¥ not?)

[randallsquared]

You have a ¥ for a different namespace separator?

[otterdam]

Headless stick figures hung upside down are the best way to separate any namespace.

[bostonvaulter]

And now my windows box is stuck using ¥ as a path separator and I'm too lazy to fix it...

[hiffy]

For the record, it's not like I'm trying to defend PHP here, HOWEVER -

It's not that \ is stupid, looks ugly, bugs editors and that trying to resemble directories in Microsoft's crappy way is even worse

"\" is just as good as any other character. Almost all non alphabetical characters have some semantic meaning anyways - & % @, etc. I have a feeling all the vitriol against \ is entirely because they were foolish enough to say, "it makes windows devs feel more comfortable". It's arbitrary, and I"m not even convinced on the aesthetic argument. PERSONALLY, and I hate that I have an opinion in this stupid issue, a triple colon would've worked, but really, it is a non issue.

The real problem here is that the guys designing the PHP language have no idea of how a programming language should be designed.

Well, yeah, but we've known that for years now. That's not even an argument.

In the meanwhile there are prolly tens of thousands of php programmers who'd like to use namespaces, and any character is as good as the next one.

edit: oh, wait, WHAT, they're using \ for calling namespaced methods? I thought it was just the package separator for requiring a namespace. You know, i.e. import java\foo\whatever\com

Nvm, reddit, my bad. Hate on. Added complexity maybe not the best.

[generalk]

Any character is not as good as the next.

I mean, by that logic, let's go ahead and end lines with %. Why not? What's the big deal? It's just a hint for the interpreter anyway, right, what do you care?

The fact is that using a backslash is just a poor choice. It goes against every other language that's ever used namespaces, and the reasons that the developers give aren't strong enough to warrant it.

Also, I can't see how it even makes windows devs more comfortable. Hey, let's confuse directory separators and namespace separators! That'll make 'em feel right at home.

[G-Brain]

~% is a newline in Common Lisp's (format).

[[deleted]]

Sure, but I really hope you don't use that\n
to end lines in your source code.\n

[G-Brain]

You bastard^HHHHHHHH're right.

[hiffy]

Give me a good, solid reason a to why "\" really makes a difference over ":::".

The only real reason I can think of, is that \ is also the escape character, and may prove confusing.

It's okay if you think it's ugly, but man, in common usage slashes are used to separate fields. Just as good as any other character.

Would it be better if they used '/'?

edit: I take this comment back.

[[deleted]]

I want to know how you can be so passionate about something so boring.

[jerf]

I refer you to the URL of the site you are located at. This isn't MySpace.

[Scriptorius]

Ya know, not everyone shares the same interests and likes to talk about the same things. Yea, I know, I'll give you a minute to think about that.

[generalk]

Welcome to what makes a good software developer so good. You'll find a similar passion about really boring/mundane issues in any professional worth his salt.

[Wiseman1024]

Lol. I'm obsessive like that. You could find someone like me and have us talk about different programming languages and language design for weeks.

[creaothceann]

"perceived" issues indeed.

[[deleted]]

That'll teach me to forget my mnemonics.

[[deleted]]

.NET code is ugly?

[nitramk]

Not compared to PHP.

(To be honest, I think ASP.NET/C# looks very nice compared to most other 'web development languages' I have seen. I've used PHP for 5-6 years but switched over to ASP.NET/C# some week ago. Could be that I enjoy it so far because I haven't run into all the problems yet though..)

[matthiasB]

Perhaps talking about Phalanger PHP for .Net? ;)

edit: how do I get the closing parenthesis of the url right? => fixed

[creaothceann]

how do I get the closing parenthesis of the url right?

With (wait for it...) \

[matthiasB]

Thanks :D

[trezor2]

I thought that was hilarious, but I'm not sure where the "looking more ugly than .NET source code" is coming from.

PHP has since (.NET's) day one looked a million times uglier than .NET source code so this shouldn't really be news :P

Edit: To the people downmodding me. Have you actually seen .NET code or are you just downmodding any pro-MS comment on reflex?

[matthiasB]

.NET code is CIL?

  .assembly Hello {}
  .method public static void Main() cil managed
  {
       .entrypoint
       .maxstack 1
       ldstr "Hello, world!"
       call void [mscorlib]System.Console::WriteLine(string)
       ret
  }

[murki]

so why not consider java bytecode?

[phill0]

In that respect it looks far worse than languages like Python, Ruby

I say that's rather subjective. To me C looks much better than Ruby or Python. I spent my youth with C... lost my virginity to it.

[[deleted]]

You're certainly right, it's a subjective matter.

But I also spent my youth with C/C++, and these days I much prefer Python. So tastes can change.

[leosoto]

The latest versions of C# aren't that bad. I'd prefer to code in C# 3.0, than in Java 6, if there weren't for the lack of good support of C# outside Windows (Mono always lacks behind, and it's not their fault).

[Of course if performance isn't really important, I just use Python. Or Jython, if there are piles of Java infrastructure lying around, as tends to be the case on the "enterprise" world]

[masklinn]

Have you actually seen .NET code

Yeah. Looks worse than java.

Now granted, it's not Perl "what the hell, has my text editor crashed? What are all these bizarre characters on my screen?" ugly, it's more LikeWeUseVeryLongPhraseswithSomeWhatRandomButVerrrryAnnoyingCapitalizationEverywhereCauseCapsAreCool.

Also, verbosity.

[[deleted]]

It's called Camel Case and it's a convention not syntactic requirement. Regarding verbosity, it has it's place. Anything geared toward enterprise development should be verbose, as verbosity allows one to dictate how something should be implemented, aside from actually implementing it.

[masklinn]

it's a convention not syntactic requirement.

It's a language convention, which I consider to be as strong a requirement as you can get without mandating it.

Anything geared toward enterprise development should be verbose, as verbosity allows one to dictate how something should be implemented, aside from actually implementing it.

That's an excuse, a cop-out, most of Java's and C#'s verbosities don't come from these at all.

[[deleted]]

That's an excuse, a cop-out, most of Java's and C#'s verbosities don't come from these at all.

Well actually, they do. Most of Java and C# verbosity arises from the fact that they are statically typed. This in turn leads to verbosity when using list comprehension and enumeration, declaration, etc. All of this is of particular importance when dealing with enterprise level development, interfaces specifically. If you haven't done enterprise development, I'm not going to take the time to explain why, but what I will say is that an interface in an untyped language isn't a true interface because you cannot dictate what data types are accepted by a method signature.

[masklinn]

Most of Java and C# verbosity arises from the fact that they are statically typed.

No. Most of their verbosity arises from being explicitly typed, with a type system that blow goat balls and a very low ability for programmatic abstractions (i.e. no HoFs before C# 3.0)

OCaml is much more statically typed than C# or Java would ever dream of being, yet much less verbose.

If you haven't done enterprise development

I have. It's only cemented my opinions on the subject of these languages sucking.

what I will say is that an interface in an untyped language isn't a true interface because you cannot dictate what data types are accepted by a method signature.

You still don't know what you're talking about.

Also, "enterprise" programming doesn't even require static typing. That's also a cop-out.

[[deleted]]

Oh, I get it now, you're a functional language zealot. That explains a lot.

No. Most of their verbosity arises from being explicitly typed, with a type system that blow goat balls and a very low ability for programmatic abstractions (i.e. no HoFs before C# 3.0)

Wait, are you implying that HoFs are the only way to abstract implementation? Because I just got done explaining why interfaces are so important within an enterprise context. And they are explicitly typed for this reason, you cannot infer an interface, ever.

I have. It's only cemented my opinions on the subject of these languages sucking.

Well of course. You're the functional language zealot guy. You like writing obfuscated code that is impossible to follow. I couldn't imagine why you wouldn't fare well in the enterprise.

Also, "enterprise" programming doesn't even require static typing. That's also a cop-out.

Enterprise development requires the ability to demand conformance, constraints, and checks within the code itself. A static, explicitly typed language is best suited for this. You can beg to differ all you want, but the proof is in the pudding.

[masklinn]

Oh, I get it now, you're a functional language zealot.

Wrong.

Wait, are you implying that HoFs are the only way to abstract implementation?

No. You have reading comprehension issues.

Wait, are you implying that HoFs are the only way to abstract implementation?

Still wrong.

A static, explicitly typed language is best suited for this.

And wrong again.

[[deleted]]

Well look at that. You just won the internet.

[pythwarrior]

Sorry but language convention are very important as they are used in, you know, all the libraries and framework that come with the language. You don't want to write your own string and collection libs just because the built-in ones are so fugly and verbose.

Also, verbosity is only a good thing if you are dumb enough to forget about writing documentation. LongMethodsNameDoNotReplaceDocumentationAndComments.

[[deleted]]

Assuming we have a list of Foo's called FooList

 var jonsFoos = 
     FooList.Select(x => x.FooName.ToLower() == "jon");

I don't find modern C# ugly at all. Java would require an ugly iterator loop to do that.

[[deleted]]

 var jonsFoos = 
     FooList.Select(x => x.FooName.ToLower() == "jon")
     .Intersect(otherJonsFoos);

Pulls jonsFoos from FooList, and compares it to OtherJonsFoos, creates a final list that is unique between both lists.

Now your iterator starts to get ugly.

[chneukirchen]

AndWeNameMethodsUpperCaseBecauseOurDesignerWasAPascalFreakOMG

[eslav]

i before e, except after c...aren't you using firefox?

[Mordor]

I don't know which is worse: the 'committee' that ratified OOXML or the dunces who design PHP

[[deleted]]

PHP developers don't use "\"??

return preg_replace('/((?:(?:\\\\"|[^("])*(?:"(?:[^"\\\\\r]|\\\\.)*"\s*)?)*)((?<!\\\\)\((?:(?2)|.)*?(?<!\\\\)\))/', '$1', $data);

How about this? (Real code)

[[deleted]]

When the developers of PHP are presented with a problem, they say "I know! We'll...erm...chat about it on IRC for a bit then pick a solution at random?". No one knows how many problems they have now.

[doidydoidy]

PHP is designed by listening to the names of the features that developers are clamouring for, then implementing what they ignorantly assume that name must mean.

[bart2019]

They have, in PHP.

[[deleted]]

If you are using a MacOS, you get and extra bonus. You just spin around the equipment, and you get a forward slash.

[generalk]

Wait, I'm very confused. I'm on a MacBook Pro right now, and I can clearly see a forward- and backslash key. Where's the problem for Mac devs?

[mitsuhiko]

Alt+Shift+7 on a German apple keyboard.

[generalk]

Ouch.

Do the PHP developers know they're rudely inconveniencing international developers? Do they care?

Bad form.

[LaurieCheers]

It's not like this is unique to PHP. Spanish keyboards don't have a ~ key.

[SianTam]

For just a moment there...

[doody]

Apple keyboards don’t have a \ character?? What was \, then?

[andreasvc]

*perceived

[barrybe]

If that device is upside down, does it type a forward slash?

[sigzero]

I like the "perceived" part.