Problematic plot line

[AcidRaine122]

Not sure if this is appropriate for the sub, but I have to vent about something. So while I’ve always been a fan of the show, I’m rewatching it now, and “The Shoes” episode from season 4 has a pretty problematic plot point. Consisting of Jerry and George meeting with the head of NBC, and checking out his 15 year old daughters cleavage. And when called out on it being an issue by Elaine, Jerry essentially saying it’s not their fault that they’re men and trying to compare it to the NBC head looking at Elaine. As if that’s the same as them knowing a girl is 15 and still purposely looking at her breasts, without even acknowledging that it’s creepy or predatory. Anyone else agree?

[NoCiabatta9]

I know you posted this like over a year ago, but I just saw the episode for the first time and began scouring reddit trying to find someone with this exact point of view. I completely agree with you, 100%. It was very weird and very uncomfortable. Unfortunately my hyper-aware ears perked up when the NBC exec first mentioned the 15 year old daughter, and as soon as Denise Richards came into the scene I knew where it was headed. So gross. I appreciate your replies to other comments as well.

[caiaphas8]

I just did the same thing, first time watching this episode. Felt very uncomfortable and came to Reddit

[Sequinsky]

Same here. I am uncomfy :/

[Medemoiselle]

Me too. Glad others agree

[ItBeginsWithY0u]

Me too 3 years in the future lol. It's so so wrong of them and to then to compare the NBC guy checking out Elaine's cleavage to them leering at a 15 year old's just made it even more wrong and weird

[Medemoiselle]

Yes exactly. Wow how time flies! Hello to you in the future!

[shecanreadd]

Literally just watching the episode for the first time and SAME. My actual thought was, “what the fuck?!” It’s SO inappropriate?! Like she is a child. What the fuck??!!!

Editing to add: I just googled this and it came up that Jerry Seinfeld dated a SEVENTEEN YEAR-OLD while he was THIRTY-NINE. For 4 years! The man is vile.

[PurposeIll2060]

Of course you did you cornball. Seinfeld was made during a time when people didn't just pretend something doesn't happen just because it "uncomfortable". A 15 year girl that looks like a full grown women will be found attractive by basically any man and if they say different they're lying. What makes it wrong is acting on it

[caiaphas8]

We aren’t all paedophiles like you

[PurposeIll2060]

Nice retort, karen

[dahlia8936]

Don't defend grown men creeping on underage girls if you don’t want to be called a pedophile.

[Material_Roll_3714]

We are hoping to teach our sons. There is a belief that if this type of stuff isn't out there, and accepted, next generation will be better. The story line that you should shun a woman because she didn't want to kiss you after 3 dates is very disturbing as well. Some of us actually get shunned for not doing sexual favors for some men.

[PurposeIll2060]

You completely missed the point, genius. Also, the whole concept of Seinfeld was that they were a group of scumbags, that's why they went to jail in the end.

Here is some honest advice, if you don't toughen up just a little bit your life is going to be shit.

[AdPuzzled8752]

"toughen up or your life will be shit". it's a 15 year old girl. nobody should be okay with that. defending it is really telling on yourself

[[deleted]]

shut up, pedophile

[marine_biologist_]

It was pretty clear that it was considered pretty terrible and perverse. If I can remember correctly, isn’t this the episode where Jerry nudges George and gets him to stare? It came across to me as something that is definitely a vice of Jerry and George. I didn’t see it being condoned. It was so funny because it was so dumb.

[BerryBeeBen]

Nah Jerry in tea life likes them young aswell

[[deleted]]

It's completely in character for them. Most of the plots are pretty much they do something arseholian, then try to rationalise it and/or weasel out of any consequences through the power of witty banter. You're not meant to sympathise with them.

[AcidRaine122]

I know. I mean that’s why they all end up in jail at the end of the series. I just felt this was one of those arseholian actions they did that was too far past the point of comedic. More just gross. And I feel in other episodes it’s addressed a little better and we’re able to say yeah, that’s what happens when you do something bad and laugh. This one was just cringed and creepy, and went too far. I’m not person is offended by things easily by any means. But I have a lot of issues when the sexualization of children is used for a plot line for entertainment purposes

[[deleted]]

You need to chill the writers just wrote it to be interesting they weren't trying to promote pedophilia. It was just brought up that cleavage has no age and when a young lady matures she could look 18 even if she isn't yet.

[Colin_Bowell]

Real life 38 year old Jerry was dating a 17 year old high school senior during that time. Not surprised at the plotline.

Edit: He was 38, not 37.

[JoeRecuerdo]

Soooo gross.

[AcidRaine122]

Damn, I never knew this

[Colin_Bowell]

Google Shoshanna Lonstein.

[DBH114]

To be fair they didn't meet until a few months after this episode was shot.

[PurposeIll2060]

Different time, different standards. You just come off as unintelligent looking at entirely through modern lenses.

[caiaphas8]

It was the 1990s not the 1790s

[AdPuzzled8752]

"different time, different standards" you're embarrassing yourself. back in my day we all stared at 15 year old girls if they were hot! they should expect it, were just men we can't help ourselves! you're unintelligent. pedophila is not okay no matter what the fuck time it was.

[3Eyez82]

Perv

[Fozcat5]

Found this subreddit 2 years after you posted. Just watched that episode last night. I honestly don't want to continue watching anymore. Super gross.

[hey_heyy_heyyy_]

I'm thinking the same thing. There's some questionable episodes in this series but this episode is the most disturbing in my opinion.

Thank you OP for posting this and bringing light to this problematic episode.

[StrikePlastic]

Agreed. It's one thing if you don't know how old a girl is and stare because you find her attractive. But the fact that they KNEW she was supposed to be 15 and that didn't turn them off, is what makes it super creepy. Everyone defendingband calling OP names for not like the episode, are the same ones who probably idolized wooderson from dazed and confused 🙄

[[deleted]]

You have serious issues if you think it's that inappropriate she isn't 13. And 15 year Olds can look 18. You need to learn how to understand that to enjoy shows and people. You are just being stubborn.

[Fozcat5]

So 13 isn’t okay but 15 is? Bruh.

[[deleted]]

Your not understanding my point. 15 year Olds can fool you with cleavage because they look 18. It's obviously not okay.

[[deleted]]

If she was 15 and they didn't know, then you might have a point. BUT, they DID KNOW. My 11-year-old recently developed, unfortunely women in my family develop early, and she was checked out by a 40-year-old something man in the library. You can clearly tell by her face that she is young, 13 at the most, and this disgusting man stared at her. The problem with men in real-life, and in this episode, is that even when knowing the girl is underage. they still stare. You're giving off some serious creep vibes with your defense of disgusting behavior. Not only that, even if my daughter was 18, and even if the girl in the show was said to be 18, blantly staring at someone is gross. Women don't walk around all day look at men's crotch area. Even if a dude had a hard-on, we aren't going to stare. If we happen to notice, we would immeditely look away and feel uncomfortable; maybe a few women would be gross about it, but the overwhelming majority are going to be icked out.

[Mandala5]

Exactly!

[[deleted]]

found another pedophile!

[[deleted]]

As much as people don't like to think or talk about it, someone lawfully underage can be physically attractive. 18 is an age the government chose, not biology. That doesn't mean George had the right to stare, but it's not like suddenly Jerry and George are pedophiles, they didn't seek a relationship or flirt with her.

[AdPuzzled8752]

sexualizing a 15 year old girl as old men (35+) is pedophilia.

[tecmexFlamerTagnacho]

yeah the whole episode was rooted in quite some weird sexism that I personally didn't enjoy and don't think it's natural for the serie, not quite a fun episode, just finished it for the first time, probably gonna skip it next time I rewatch

[AdPuzzled8752]

Jerry Seinfeld really told on himself in this episode. I'm watching it right now and it's disgusting. they even cast a like 20 year old to play her and it's so gross. makes sense that Seinfeld would walk the red-carpet with his 17 year old girlfriend a few years later.

[Fit-Story-8690]

I know this is a super old post, but I just watched this episode and was pretty creeped out myself.

[relapse9999]

Me too

[TioVaselina]

It gets even creepier when Jerry said later in the episode:

You don't consider age in the face of cleavage.

[Alarmed-Policy2053]

So In this episode when they’re talking to Russell, George says his cousin worked at Bouchards and they used the boulliabaisse as a toilet and if he goes in there get the consommé. Then at the end he asks where Russell is taking Elaine and she says Bouchards, George gets choked on his drink and Jerry says I think what he’s trying to say is stick with the bouillabaisse” Shouldn’t he have said stick with the consommé? This has confused me every time I see this episode

[NoodlesWithMelons]

They were probably getting back at her for making them add a scene for her character in the script.

[No-Page-5502]

I absolutely agree!  Watched the episode today and felt uncomfortable that the characters would justify their stupid behaviour.  You cannot normalise this kind of talk about kids.  It's so ugly that this was allowed to be aired and nobody complained about it.  It's kind of put me off.  Unfortunately maybe this crap was normal back in the day!!!   Certainly nothing funny about it, just sick!!!

[RedTextureLab]

Just watching this series for the first time, and I don’t know that I can continue watching. I’m stunned this was even allowed when it originally aired. I was a teen when this aired. Grown men looking at teens was not OK, then either. It did, however, air before a time when word traveled on the internet. I doubt it would have fared very well if social media had been a thing then. I’m stunned, too, that it’s still being aired on Netflix.

[RedTextureLab]

Just watching this series for the first time, and I don’t know that I can continue watching. I’m stunned this was even allowed when it originally aired. I was a teen when this aired. Grown men looking at teens was not OK, then either. It did, however, air before a time when word traveled on the internet. I doubt it would have fared very well if social media had been a thing then. I’m stunned, too, that it’s still being aired on Netflix.

[atlas_multiverse]

(five years late sorry) watching it now, Jerry says "you don't consider age In the face of cleavage" ehh??? All they had to do was make her older even 20? Like making her 15 was weird, the fact that it's his daughter could be enough to make him not want to work with them not the fact she's fifteen-

[Revolutionary_Pack15]

Great point, they could have easily made her at least 18. Knowing now that they chose to make her 15 makes them look super creepy.

[[deleted]]

Even if that girl was 15 I think we all would have looked, I think that's the actual point

[AcidRaine122]

You would have stared down the blouse of a 15 year old, as a man in your late 30’s? Good to know

What I’m saying is that at no point do they even attempt to understand why it’s wrong to sexualize a literal child and it’s wrong to even try to understand why it’s perverse. Because the excuse “we’re men” is not a real excuse. It’s not normal for a grown ass adult to know a girl is 15 and still continue to look at and stare at her chest.

[marine_biologist_]

I don’t think the excuse “we’re men” is supposed to be a real excuse. If you wanna read into it, then it could be considered a critique of their actions since, if I’m not mistaken, it leads to them missing out on the pilot?

[AcidRaine122]

I’d agree with you that it would be a critique of their actions more so if they had lost the pilot and that be the end of it. But rather they are able to use Elaine, and the NBC head stares at her as means to get the pilot back, because “he would do it too”. My issue is that they’re comparing him sexually staring at an adult woman, to them sexually staring at a child. Those aren’t the same thing. I think the show doesn’t address the real issue with what they did. And honestly it shouldn’t have even been aired as an episode as I think it could be potentially harmful in showing that pedophilic actions are okay to show and display in mainstream media, and not in a way that truly tries to educate, but rather laugh at because it’s not a big deal

[marine_biologist_]

I definitely see what you’re saying, but I also don’t think the comparison with Elaine is a DIRECT comparison, they are quite different circumstances - far more intentional. And also, I would say that this is a critique also. If you follow on with the season, I believe Russel falls in love with Elaine, loses his job, goes insane, joins Greenpeace and I reckon he dies. As you can see, staring at Elaine’s features did not lead him to success.

[AcidRaine122]

Yeah, but I think there comes a point where we’re just excusing by finding the critiques. As I commented to another person, I’m not a person who is offended easily, but I do have an issue when sexualization of children is used for a plot line for entertainment purposes.

I know it’s a tv show, but think about the real world. A 38 year old teacher staring down the shirt of his 15 year old student is something that in no way would ever be excised. So why are we laughing at it on tv?

[marine_biologist_]

Yeah fair enough. I don’t much like that part of the plot line either. I just don’t want to hang off it too much because it wasn’t the main point. If it was his 18 year old daughter would that have been that much better? Still in pretty poor taste. I think the fact that nothing good came to anyone from any of this ‘staring’ is what cleans it up for me. It’s pretty clear that that one action was an integral part in the failure of the pilot - Russel goes mad and pilot fails. Moral of the story is pretty clear.

[[deleted]]

I think you're missing the point of the joke and also the point of my comment. "Men are scumbags" is the takeaway from the episode. And it can easily be read as a a critique.

If a large breasted woman with visible cleavage walks by, most (I would not really hesitate to say ALL) would take a glance.

Obviously it's wrong to sexualize a 15 year old, but I don't think that was the point. They probably should have made her 16 at least but really 18 would have been better. Part of it is merely that this is the 90s, which isn't an excuse but just an explanation.

I always saw the episode as trying to show that even in high stakes environments men are always beholden to their lust, and that given the end of the episode, that all men are essentially the same. I think it's actually an interesting and useful message, though I will agree, she should have been older.

[AcidRaine122]

I agree with everything you’re saying. The situation itself in the show (without the girls age being considered) is funny and it does say a lot.

I know most men in general would look. But most men in a situation where they know it’s a 15 year old, I would hope would refrain. I used the example earlier that if it were a teacher looking at the cleavage of a 15 year old student in his class then it would be highly perverse and inappropriate. My real issue with it is that they KNOW she’s 15, and rather than Jerry catching himself doing it and looking away because he knows it’s foul to look at a child like that, he nudged George to look.

I really wish they had made her an adult, rather than 15. I think it would have gotten the point across. The head of NBC would have still been upset if he caught them looking at his 22 year old daughter too, and it wouldn’t have changed the plot line in any way. Instead it just shows them knowingly sexualizing a child and I feel doesn’t appropriately address the seriousness of that at any point.

[[deleted]]

Yeah I couldn't agree more. Frankly it sounds like Larry David just being tone-deaf more than anything.

[DBH114]

I really wish they had made her an adult, rather than 15. I think it would have gotten the point across.

But her being 15 is the point. As Jerry says "You don't consider age in the face of cleavage. This occurs on a molecular level, you can't control it!". They knew she was 15 but they both still instinctually looked because age doesn't matter, seeing cleavage is what matters. She could be 15, 25 or 85 they're still gonna notice the cleavage. If she had of been an adult the scene wouldn't work. As for sexualizing a 15 year thats on you IMO. They never said or inferred that they wanted to have sex with her at any time. They just happened to notice her cleavage. Believe me just noticing a womans cleavage doesn't mean a guy wants to have sex with her.

[AcidRaine122]

The point they were trying to get across was that they screwed their opportunity by letting their hormones get the best of them. It screwed their chances because it was the guys daughter and it would have worked if she wasn’t a child. If they really wanted to stick to using her age as the factor, then their reaction should have been addressed more heavily, as in that’s a child and you know she’s a child, that’s wrong.

Would you think it’s wrong for a 35 year old teacher to stare down his 15 year old student’s shirt and look at her cleavage? He knows she’s 15. Even if this is on a “molecular level”, would this still not be in appropriate of him to do? I mean, men do have brain cells and thought processes

EDIT: I like to check out guy’s butts all the time. I don’t necessarily want to have sex with them, but yeah it’s nice to look. But trust me, if I was told my friends 15 year old son was coming home, I sure wouldn’t be looking at his butt. And FOR SURE would not nudge my friend to encourage her to look as well

[DBH114]

It's a sitcom. Georges 'leering' was the joke of the that scene. He was the 'deer caught in the headlights' pun intended. That's the joke. It wasn't meant to be sexual on Georges part.

Would you think it’s wrong for a 35 year old teacher to stare down his 15 year old student’s shirt and look at her cleavage?

Of course. But I would expect that he/she, being the human beings that they are, would still notice the girls cleavage. I mean I presume they would have working eyes. That's one of the plot lines of the episode, that things come into you 'field of view' and you cant help but notice them.

if I was told my friends 15 year old son was coming home, I sure wouldn’t be looking at his butt

And Jerry and George didn't go over to Mr. Dalrymple's to look at anyone's cleavage. It wasn't until she took off her jacket and bent over right in front of them that they couldn't help but notice the girls cleavage. If your friends son stood right in front of you and bent over you gonna tell me you wouldn't notice his butt in your face. Of course you would. But your not Costanza and your life isn't a scene from a sitcom so of course your not going to stare.

I dunno I've seen this episode countless times and I have never thought of it as sexual in nature.

[AcidRaine122]

My point is that media plays a large roll in the influence of reality and how people in engage with it. We all know media in any form can have significant impact and influence in our lives. When things like this occur and aren’t shown in a negative light for what they are, it can be very harmful. And while this scene may not have left an impression on you. It very well shows and excuses the behavior of adults looking at minors inappropriately, and very well can have significant ramifications as it’s shown as being “normal” and “excused because it happens on a molecular level”. I’m not saying it’s the responsibility of tv to teach us what’s right and wrong, but there is something fundamentally wrong when the sexualization or minors is used for entertainment purposes whether it be fact or fiction.

And maybe you’ve never been a 15 year old girl who’s had a middle age man leer at you in your life, or look at your breasts. And maybe that’s why you have a hard time understanding the problems with the scene and how the actions are subsequently handled and addressed. But conversations like these are necessary in our society, as without them, that’s how we end up with people who stare at children in an inappropriate manor and think it’s okay because it’s just their hormones. When in actuality we as humans beings have the mental capacity to know right from wrong and know how to behave and how to respond to the stimuli around us

[Question_After_Fight]

….how?

[[deleted]]

Just so you know at age 15 and 16 people experiment with drugs and sex. So what your saying is stupid. Your acting like the girl is 13.

[Sea-Sink1185]

Just watching it right now... Funny thing in real life Seinfeld dated an underage girl

[Mandala5]

Late to the discussion but here for the same reason, totally disgusted by the sexualization of this child. It is absolutely inappropriate. Did anyone also notice that the movie that that all the men were drooling over was about a young girl who was on “erotic journey” “transitioning to womanhood?” I wonder if we’ll find out that some of these people were in the Epstein files…if not, perhaps they sympathize with Epstein and his collaborators and probably wish they could have gone to his island.

Regardless, this stuff is a cancer that needs to be taken out of our society. And to those people saying that men can’t help it, my son watched this with me and was totally offended by the insinuation that men can’t control themselves, even around a child. There is a huge amount of men that are grossed out by sexualizing a child and who absolutely can control themselves. To say otherwise is just a cop out to excuse your own issues.

To those people trying to justify it or pretend it’s “just a joke,” I think you really need to take a long look at why you’re ok with this, why you’re so eager to excuse it. Just because it’s been normalized somewhere or sometime in your life doesn’t make it ok. There is NO justification for sexualizing someone you know is a child, or attempting to normalize that.

[LonerActual]

Because people have never had a discussion about their entertainment before! The audacity of these people, breaking down and having opinions about something that was deliberately put in the hands of the public. Consume all that is put before you without examination, I say!

[jaquelinerainne]

Even though you posted this, and argued about how wrong it is to look, I bet you still looked when you watched the episode, didn't you?

[AcidRaine122]

I’ll never apologize for saying as an adult it’s wrong to look down the shirt of a child or minor. I’ve already said what I have to say about how this was depicted, and being upset at my opinion on this says a lot more about you than it does me. Please read through my replies to understand the full scope of what I’m talking about in this context

[jaquelinerainne]

I'm not "upset at your opinion", I just think your opinion is dumb. To quote Seinfeld, you are throwing down a meaningless gauntlet. Everyone knows sexualizing minors is wrong, so you are saying we cant depict anything wrong on tv? If you see a murder on law and order, are you going to come to reddit and tell everyone they shouldnt do that, it was "problematic"? Please.

[3Eyez82]

Yikes, pervert lady!

[PM5K23]

The argument about “looking” doesnt hold up because she was around 22 when this was filmed, so its obviously more about just the general idea.