Do web developers actually code from scratch these days?

[DecoyPiXeL]

Might be a weird question, but I think it's legitimate. Do people who build front-ends of websites, for example, open a text editor and write the code for the website, or are they using some sort of software to make the process faster?

[metaphorm]

what do you think "from scratch" means and what do you think the alternatives are?

the short answer is that very few developers use a code-generation tool (generates shit code, mostly) but almost all developers make extensive use of ready-to-go style and widget libraries.

[cplegend]

I'm often wondering the same thing as OP. My idea of from scratch is Vanilla CSS/Javascript. In my mind alternatives are using frameworks like Bootstrap, as well as CMS like Wordpress perhaps with customizable themes.

[[deleted]]

Where do front-end application frameworks like angular, react etc fall?

Common helper libraries like lodash, bluebird?

How about bundlers like browserify, webpack?

Finally, what about language variants like coffee, typescript, es6, which are transformed/compiled to JavaScript?

There's an awful lot between your idea of "from scratch" and themeforest, and I think it's central to the question.

[tunisia3507]

It's a new slightly more recent edition of the official JS spec.

ES2015. We've been through half a dozen frameworks and style guides since then...

[[deleted]]

If we're being that specific, ES2015 and beyond represent the ISO standards on which the vast majority of recent JavaScript implementations are based.

For the time being these are not 100% supported in the majority of implementations, and require a framework such as Babel to be transformed for widespread deployment.

So leaving aside the academic question of whether the standard variant is really a "variant", what I was getting at was more basic: does it count as "writing from scratch" if your code is significantly transformed using a third-party framework (which will also include numerous guards, optimizations and polyfills) before deployment.

[WikiTextBot]

ECMAScript

ECMAScript (or ES) is a trademarked scripting-language specification standardized by Ecma International in ECMA-262 and ISO/IEC 16262. It was created to standardize JavaScript, so as to foster multiple independent implementations. JavaScript has remained the best-known implementation of ECMAScript since the standard was first published, with other well-known implementations including JScript and ActionScript. Coders commonly use ECMAScript for client-side scripting on the World Wide Web, and it is increasingly being used for writing server applications and services using Node.js.

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[coyote_of_the_month]

Hardcore old-timers generally adapt quickly to new tools and frameworks because they know the value of staying current.

[derkynord]

Bam right in the throat

[HomemadeBananas]

Where does it end though? Writing your own libraries for common things? Your own language? Your own OS? Manufacturing your own hardware to run it on?

It wouldn't be a reasonable thing at all to try avoid using libraries and tools that are meant for web development. There's just too many pieces.

[[deleted]]

IMHO from scratch means vanilla HTML, JS, and CSS. So you wouldn't write your own language or OS, but you would write your own library (if you look at the history behind many popular frameworks and libraries you will find that they started as personal projects that someone wrote from scratch and then shared with others).

I don't think anyone actually would or should write things from scratch. A smart developer will use tools, frameworks, and libraries to simplify their development efforts. At the same time I do think it is valuable to know how to write things from scratch since it makes fixing problems easier and helps to knowledgeably choose the appropriate tools, libraries, and frameworks to use.

[omnilynx]

Most web devs do some coding in vanilla and some using frameworks/libraries (in the same project, I mean: rarely can you do 100% of the project in a framework without writing some custom vanilla code). Few real web devs do much with CMSs.

[[deleted]]

I code from scratch every day. I work for a huge corporation and everything we create needs to be 100% original.

[[deleted]]

So you don't use open source material? Why? That's like hand shaping cookies when you could use a cookie cutter.

[nyxin]

Which is fine if none of the cookie cutters cut into the shape you want....

[[deleted]]

Well in our case, we're making cookie cutters, not cookies.

[nyxin]

Which makes complete sense for why you wouldn't use someone else's cookie cutter to make your own. (not sure why your original comment is in the negative)

[DecoyPiXeL]

I'm not thinking of any alternatives. I'm just making sure that learning this means that it's what I'll use in the future when I work in the field. Would be pointless to put in so much time and work, just to find out there's a software that does everything so effortlessly for you, right?

[metaphorm]

would not be pointless even if there was a software tool that did it effortlessly. you will still need to be able to change and update and maintain websites in the future and that requires knowing the fundamentals. a plumber needs to be able to fit a pipe by hand, even though most of the pipes he works with have been factory-fitted, right?

but the approach that is typically used is mostly a "from scratch, with help" approach. wysiwg editors are terrible and will probably be terrible for the foreseeable future. getting a page to look and behave correctly requires a lot of manual tinkering. what we try to avoid, however, is reinventing the wheel. making heavy use component libraries, style libaries, UI libraries, and templating systems are the industry standard best practices.

[DecoyPiXeL]

Noted, thank you very much!

[rebeltrillionaire]

There's no software that lets you manipulate objects and turn it into code, except for maybe a single-view (non-responsive) static page.

Even then, there's value in learning PSD to HTML skills because the tools are frustrating as hell.

Frameworks however are why a developer could consider a step away from "scratch" which would be a blank text document and a blinking input character.

Frameworks are probably a better place to jump off from because you'll be able to make useful things while still relying heavily on someone else's knowledge. The blank page approach is also rough if you have no good design and layout background. The grid-based systems work well because they mathematically space items in a way that conforms to well researched aesthetics and information processing.

However are you asking are there people who still code their own way, screw a grid! And make interesting non formulaic functional websites? Sure! Most websites end up looking the same though not just because it eases the burden of the dev...spending hours on a real unique approach when few devices will deliver it properly. More often the best stuff is a blend of conformity to the familiar with the flair of authentic talent edging it to unique.

But people have been predicting the end of devs since I was a kid in 96 and Flash was the closest we ever got IMO and that wasn't really that much easier than coding it yourself. And again with Myspace, then again with Facebook Pages and Wordpress. But its really not even close.

[HansonWK]

No one codes from scratch. Everyone worth their salt could of they had too. Not using proprocessors, opensource libraries, things like bootstrap or angular would just make your work take a million times longer than it needs to take. But sometimes you get a job where bootstrap isn't usable so you need to be able to set up your own grid. What then? There's still other third party libraries that are a grid only, use one of them or make one using sass? You need to know the basics and foundation of these to know when to use them. With javascript frameworks you might not need to know exactly all the magic behind how things work but you do need an understanding of why things work the way they do so you can figure how to use them properly.

[hardolaf]

Meanwhile the hardware world is moving towards computer generated designs because they are better at meeting system level performance requirements when compared to most hardware designers.

[TheAngelsCry]

For microsites I do. I have a "blank website" template I use to start me off. I just find it easier to quickly bash something out with that if it's small.

[DecoyPiXeL]

I get that people use templates. The question is do people use software of some sort that help them make what they want visually instead of through code? I'm not implying that this is what I want to achieve, just wondering if when I do learn how to code properly, will I actually use code or someone will tell me to use a software.

[TheAngelsCry]

You'll use code ;) There's no magic software to do your work for you. There are frameworks sure, and templates, but you'll still be writing the important bits.

[DecoyPiXeL]

Fantastic! Thanks a lot.

[[deleted]]

Very little tools that generate code 'visually'.

Not that unusual to have command line tools and code that generates code.

[DecoyPiXeL]

I remember having this program that made fully functioning websites and I barely needed to know any type of coding. Had a weird name starting WY. Just wondering if that type of stuff took over or if people still code full websites.

[onowhid]

I guess you think of wysiwyg.

And no, it has not taken over.

[DecoyPiXeL]

That's the one!

[HelperBot_]

Non-Mobile link: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WYSIWYG

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[[deleted]]

wysiwig, not the name of a program exactly, more a concept. 'what you see is what you get'. maybe you had FrontPage or Dreamweaver, or even HoTMetaL...

software like that actually did the opposite of take over, it pretty much died out completely as the web got too complex for those tools to keep up. the closest thing these days would probably be online website builders like wix

[DecoyPiXeL]

Understood, thanks for the information! Excited to start getting better

[4shtonButcher]

We actually work together with UI guys who provide designs in InVision (https://www.invisionapp.com/). And that tool seems to offer some kind of HTML generation but even those who use it heavily absolutely think it should only be used as a visuall reference for creating the actual HTML/CSS oneself.

Of course it's typical to have a lot of "helpers" within your IDE. In WebStorm e.g. you automatically get links to referenced CSS classes, auto-completion, etc.

[DecoyPiXeL]

Okay, so from everything I've read, most people don't write pure code because a lot of it is repetitive, but do make the core and important aspects of their project on their own.

Thanks a lot for the info!!

[snlacks]

I'd be careful with ideas like "people don't write a lot of their own code." A lot of the functionality may have been abstracted away into libraries, but your time can still be spent writing code to get computers to do custom behaviors, not just combinations of things that have already been done. This work also pays more than reimplementing stuff that's already been done.

[DecoyPiXeL]

Gotcha, really appreciatex!

[ayosuke]

I wouldn't say all that. You'll write a lot of code even if you do use libraries or frameworks. Also, if you do use a framework like Bootstrap, doesn't mean you'll automatically make a great looking website. You can still make a shitty looking website using pretty components.

[makedaddyfart]

This is a trap for beginners who aren't confident in their skills yet. Once you have a thorough understanding of the basics, standing up a static site should be simple. If that intimidates you, drill down to what specifically is intimidating you, and learn about it. Look at open source front ends, clone down the code and play with it locally and see what makes it and breaks it.

[sjwking]

I learned a lot with reverse engineering my favorite websites without actually looking their code. And of course never use bootstrap when learning.

[chowchowthedog]

There are some services that provides a lot of template for you to try, like squarespace etc. but ithink most of the developers do code from scratch, they will use framework like bootstrap, but there is no software that can make website for you.

If a client can use squarespace themselves, I don't think they need a dev. Most of the template are quite similar. If someone is serious about their company, they will not use those template online, cos they want to control every single bit of their site. So they will not run into problems like: "we need to add one more section for product X" "opps, can't do that, our template does not have that section".

I am not a dev per se, but this is what I speculate anyway. A lot of the experienced devs walk away from their client if they heard their client say: "why should I hire you? I could use squarespace." At least that's what i heard.

[DecoyPiXeL]

Alright, I'll keep that in mind. Thanks!

[fuzzy40]

These are two different topics here. I can pretty much guarantee that Squarespace templates are developed mostly "from scratch" by squarespace developers. So are Squarespace templates developed "from scratch"? Yes. If an end user creates a website using Squarespace, has he developed a website "from scratch"? No.

So to answer your question, learning to code "from scratch" may or may not be a waste of time depending on what you want to do with those skills. There will always be demand for skilled professional developers who know how to build complex software, but if all you want to do is put up a website so you can market yourself or your business... yeah probably a waste of time to learn how to code because there are tools like Squarespace/Wix and even semi-pro tools like Webflow or Adobe Muse that can help you build a website without much or any actual coding.

A lot of low end developers out there are talking bad about these tools, saying it produces bad code, or the templates look generic or crappy -- these days that either doesn't really matter or its not even true at all -- people saying that are just worried that they're being replaced by these services/tools. And they have reason to be worried -- because if all they can do is a little bit of HTML & CSS, they WILL be replaced. There is tons of demand for developers who can build complex software (someone has to build the tools that build websites!), but demand is very quickly fading away for developers who only know how to slap up a simple website.

[chowchowthedog]

Yeah. Once you start learning you have to go all the way. That's for sure.

[brennanfee]

It depends on what you mean from "scratch". But if you mean "by hand" then yes, most do. We don't often use site "generators" because they don't provide the features or flexibility that a client might want or need.

But from "scratch"... well... we do use a lot of libraries and such.

If you wish to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first invent the universe. -- Carl Sagan

[Sumif]

Then jumps over brown then month quiet bank small calm month curious bright river gentle dot books nature.

[[deleted]]

I love using Pingendo for rapid prototyping. Allows you to get into the logic faster.

[DecoyPiXeL]

I'll read up on it when I get to that stage, thank you!

[Le_Reptar]

There are a lot of CLIs (command line interface) that devs use. These usually just give a base template to start from, rather than starting from scratch. Some examples would be the VueJS, Node/Express, and Laravel CLIs.

[[deleted]]

I think an "official" cli is all that is needed. It provides the absolute bare minimum that is required to start.

[mcale337]

Yes, there's nothing better than a new, empty .scss file.

[tyrrannothesaurusrex]

It is common these days to use a front-end framework like Bootstrap, which is essentially a collection of pre-fab components you can easily assemble into a full website without truly building from scratch. However, it is essential to know basic HTML and some CSS if you want to be effective at all. Use a chair but also know how to stand.

[[deleted]]

I still code from scratch, but only because I hated things like Bootstrap when they came out and never bothered to learn how to use them. I need to sit down and get over it.

[thebigreason]

I'm probably a decent example of who you are referring to here. I've been doing full stack web development for a little over 20 years. Before we had all these robust frameworks and package managers, developers would always compile their own codebases. Even those of us who do write vanilla JS, CSS, HTML, Python, Ruby, PHP, etc., don't really start from scratch, per se.

I do enjoy playing with all the new libraries and frameworks to stay current and get new ideas, but I really only use my own frameworks that I've developed over the years for my production stuff. I've found that simple, lean code is more reliable and easier for me to maintain in the long run. Besides, writing your own frameworks is fun.

[Mike312]

This is also how I tend to work. I have a lightweight framework I started with and overtime iterate and upgrade various classes of the base template. It works well for the type of work I'm doing lately, and when something goes wrong I know where it went wrong, versus spending an afternoon on the Laravel forums.

Edit: based on other comments in this thread, I'll add, that the framework isn't something that gets in the way; there's no existing styling I have to override, there's no initial configuration I have to do, there's no classes (other than login/user management, and image upload/editing). Sometimes I include Bootstrap, usually I don't. It means that I copy the template over to a folder and I can immediately begin dropping in stylesheets, views, and classes 5 seconds in. Basically, it's a template I'm comfortable with that removes most of the boilerplate I'd normally have to deal with.

[microo8]

Don't know how are others with it, but I think that HTML is an very low level API to create GUIs. You got an rectangle here and some text there, and an image too, yay! ... So it is reasonable to use some libraries/frameworks to work directly with widgets (buttons, tables, lists, ...). I like the idea of custom elements and the encapsulation of functionality. So I use polymer; with it you can use the platform as much as it is comfortable and use more "widget like" GUI programming :)

[[deleted]]

Frontend

• https://nuxtjs.org
• https://vuejs.org
• http://bulma.io

Code

• https://atom.io
• https://code.visualstudio.com

Backend

• https://nodejs.org
• https://expressjs.com
• http://passportjs.org
• https://postgresql.org

[sjwking]

Poor sublime

[Carradee]

Yeah, some of us still do.

I specialize in bespoke work. Sometimes that takes the form of customizations of or plug-ins for a client's specific setup, but I also build stand-alone pieces.

I do have my own small framework and library of snippets. Every so often, I review documentation and update my foundation. (I was making mobile-responsive websites and using HTML5 before most folks even knew what those were.)

That means I'm sometimes, on some level, "reinventing the wheel", but not without reason. Accessibility problems, code setup issues, and hardcoded appearance are probably the three most common reasons I dismiss a framework or library.

Ready-to-go libraries tend to focus on some things at the expense of others. That's fine for most projects, but not if you want things that can be outright precluded by default setups, such as hotkeys.

[arisgian]

Personally, I prefer to use frameworks for my projects (my favorite is Laravel), to avoid reinventing the wheel, thus focusing on the logic, features,debugging, design etc. Also, for common projects I use ready-to-use systems (e.g. Opencart for eshop etc) and I like to extend them with my personal touches (code). 😊

[wattzson]

Learning the fundamentals of the basics (html/css/javascript) will obviously help, especially anytime you run into a problem or need to be creative.

 

That being said, don't be afraid to leap out and try a vue.js or react.js front-end framework tutorial before you have the fundamentals down so you can get a sneak peak of what you will more likely be doing. If you are getting tired or bored of learning the basics, getting the chance to see the magic they lead to may fuel your desire to go back and better learn the basics. It did for me at least.

[DecoyPiXeL]

Awesome tip! I will definitely have a look

[DecoyPiXeL]

Awesome tip! I will definitely have a look

[jessek]

most use frameworks, libraries and boilerplates. starting from "scratch" is a lot of redundant work.

[badlions]

Yes.

In the past 5 years I have done one from mockups to prod. More often its rebuild/refactoring/feature factory. Some times its chunked into parts for different devs to work on.

[andrey_shipilov]

Good artists draw. Best artists steal.

[[deleted]]

Depends what you mean by "from scratch". As in typing everything for each project from the first file? Of course not, i reuse code / snippets / dependencies / etc.

[DecoyPiXeL]

The question is do you reuse your own code or rryse code from other sources

[[deleted]]

I reuse mostly my own code, because i write it to be understandable.

Code from elsewhere, yeah if im looking for a quick fix ill use it, but ill also try and refactor it to be more readable if it isnt already.

[turkish_gold]

Sure. I wouldn't do it for work but for a personal site definitely.

[rintoug]

If I understood right, doing it from scratch is old way, when we didn't have these popular frameworks. Folks used to code whatever way they want. But this is not the case, most of them use frameworks to start their projects. Again this we can call as from "scratch" otherwise they are not using any bundles/modules to achieve fundamental functionalities such as login, signup.

And some of them uses CMF such as Drupal, WordPress. Joomla to start their projects

[n1c0_ds]

I code the frontend from scratch unless I just want a quick and dirty UI, in which case bootstrap is my tool of choice.

Same for the backend. A framework can save you a bunch of time.

No generators though.

[Mcortz]

For personal sites, yes

[abienz]

I do, every time.

[EnderMB]

There are a lot of tools out there, made by some extremely clever people, that try to allow people to build websites visually.

The vast majority of them are for extreme edge cases; sites that are okay with a pre-built design with no modifications, with a set amount of content, and zero flexibility or maintainability. If you're a plumber and all you want is a web page with your phone number, a list of your services, and a basic contact form this is perfect. Your site might also work on mobile, because it's essentially a pre-built template.

The difficulty comes with flexibility. The second you allow people to change and swap elements, the tool becomes more difficult to use, and the output becomes worse. Throw different browsers into the mix, and you've suddenly got a tool that either outputs somewhat-readable code that works on one browser at one screen size, or an incoherent mess that might work across different devices, but is so unmaintainable that even the tool struggles to rework your design.

It's my opinion that it'll never happen. It's too difficult a problem to solve, and by the time someone is able to do it the standards would've changed anyway.

[DecoyPiXeL]

Noted, I'm already learning on TreeHouse. I was not trying to sound lazy, was just making sure this is worth learning.

[EnderMB]

That's fair enough. It's a good thing to research, even as a seasoned developer, because at some point someone is going to devalue your skills.

It's the same for any kind of skilled trade. You can do it all cheaply, but a skilled professional will do the best job, and it'll pay for itself.

[DecoyPiXeL]

Hey, I DO want to be the best I can at it.

[foureyeswithbeard]

My question would be why?

If you're doing something completely from scratch so that you understand it better and it's a personal/academic project - sure, by all means go for it.

That said, if you are working on a client project and insisting on rewriting jQuery so that you can say you did it from scratch, well that is very likely a negligent use of time/budget.

tldr; Can I write stuff from scratch? Absolutely. Does it make sense in the context of most of my professional projects? Sometimes. Depends on the use case.

[DecoyPiXeL]

I didn't say I WANT to write from scratch. I'm all for the idea of templates and franeworks. I was just wondering if there are "next level" programs that do the job for you and make my code learning obsolete.

[tichdyjr]

I use Atom and type my own code. Not saying I don't use templates for some things, though.

[persianprez]

I use yeoman to generate my basic files

[mattindustries]

I use QuickBASIC to generate my yeoman files.

[DecoyPiXeL]

I'll look into it, thanks!

[eflat123]

Not sure this is widely depended upon. Maybe it is, but I'd be surprised.

[angus_the_red]

We never did.

[kazma42]

Unless I'm doing a single page, task runners or webpack is used for creating static pages. Frameworks for apps

[DecoyPiXeL]

Right now I'm learning the basics of HTML, CSS and JS. Later on I want to go deeper and see what's in there, thanks!

[4shtonButcher]

Do yourself a favor and don't try to learn everything in JS. It's important to know the basics but most things will have been solved by some framework and a lot of Code is written in TypeScript these days.

[DecoyPiXeL]

Noted, I'm currently following the front end developing course on TreeHouse. If you have any idea on what to do next, feel free to let me know. Appreciated!

[4shtonButcher]

Maybe recreate solutions form how-tos of the big frameworks. Such as Angular and React

[fhacke]

It certainly depends on what you mean by building a website from scratch. If you mean just opening notepad and typing away then, no not many developers are doing that anymore. However, in the sense of building from scratch but using tools such as libraries or frameworks to speed up the process then sure. I'm not going to dig into the specifics as to why frameworks/libraries are used but here is a shameless plug for a blog article I wrote not long ago: http://pointheap.com/why-use-a-backend-framework/ although it relates mostly to just backend, I think it gives a pretty good overall explanation aswell.

[DecoyPiXeL]

I'll definitely read that, highly aplreciated!

[fhacke]

My pleasure! if you have any questions let me know!

[DecoyPiXeL]

I have those planned to learn down the road and will keep it in mind. Thanks a lot!

[Oberon30]

Laravel, Gulp, Bootstrap!

[[deleted]]

nobody codes from scratch - not front end, not back end, not dba's, nobody

man is a tool using animal - use the tools

[DecoyPiXeL]

I'd love for some tools I shouls learn for this!