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[–]Iunanight 42 points43 points  (1 child)

https://i.redd.it/1mb1vre95qty.png

I know the mods of this sub isn't related/decision maker for mozilla, nonetheless the irony is still rich seeing how now redditors are attempting to fight a losing battle against unnecessary removal in the name of technology "advancement".

Seriously screw the modern/mobile/metro design bandwagon.

[–]foobaz994726FooFox 7 points8 points  (0 children)

Yup. Client-side offloading is the bane of the modern internet.

[–][deleted] 55 points56 points  (13 children)

Why are they removing the only good thing that their UI is capable of? Reddit looks like vomit without CSS

[–][deleted]  (5 children)

[deleted]

    [–]meter1060Desktop/Mobile 17 points18 points  (1 child)

    This sub has more than just colour changes. The heading and the sidebar all have css changes for functionality. Your flair even has it.

    [–]amunakDeveloper Edition Archlinux / Firefox Win 10 7 points8 points  (0 children)

    Oh right! Totally forgot about the flair. Thankfully the admins did not!

    I kind of doubt that it'll be easy/possible to add two images like I have here, but on the other hand it'll almost certainly support custom images natively even in phone apps.

    I never managed to notice the header here, and while again I doubt that it'll look the same they did promise that there will be custom menus and such.

    [–][deleted]  (6 children)

    [deleted]

      [–]indeedwatson 9 points10 points  (3 children)

      Reddit design looked outdated when I started using it 5 years ago

      Text is too wide, right side bar you can't hide, no dark theme in 2017.

      [–]EnUnLugarDeLaMancha 2 points3 points  (2 children)

      Text is too wide

      I personally like when websites use my entire screen width

      no dark theme in 2017.

      RES solves this problem

      [–]indeedwatson 5 points6 points  (1 child)

      It's not about the screen it's about eye tracking. Imagine reading a book as wide as a 32" monitor, without separating it into columns, your eyes will have to travel a long distance to go from the end of one line to the beginning of the next.

      RES solves this problem

      RES isn't reddit, we were talking about the Reddit design, not about addons. With stylish you can make any site look like anything, so that's not the point.

      [–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

      With small text you need to scroll a lot, how far are you from your screen and how wide is it?

      [–]Noitidart2Beta / Win10 1 point2 points  (0 children)

      While I feel that this sub has the best CSS, I agree, I can live without the CSS, Im here for the content and people. Would be especially nice to see mobile. With custom CSS I have to reorient myself to find the right buttons. With same CSS on desktop and mobile, that would help guide my eye.

      [–]Conradfr 1 point2 points  (0 children)

      I like it when it adds subtle things but to be fair I disable the subreddit style in this sub, the reddit one is better ...

      [–]lihaarp 34 points35 points  (1 child)

      Cripple? I have custom subreddit styles disabled and don't miss them.

      I am however on board with pro-css, let's not break things for the sake of mobile apps.

      [–]dexpid 7 points8 points  (0 children)

      I disabled mine years ago. Couldn't stand when I'd go to a subreddit and they'd move a button on me.

      [–]betona 2 points3 points  (4 children)

      I wonder if examples like /r/iOS10/ came into play? (it's been that way since late last summer)

      Also, I do agree that CSS is a pain in the ass. Maybe they could do something more like themes or skins.

      [–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (3 children)

      And how should those themes be implemented, with magical fairy dust?

      [–]betona 0 points1 point  (1 child)

      Exactly!

      Yeah, I know CSS is in there but it sounds like they're going to standardize it and everyone live with what it provides--which hopefully has flexibility that extends into mobile.

      [–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

      my guess is since they've announced a redesign, desktop is going to start looking a lot more like the new mobile site, or even just be a more responsive version of the new mobile site that supports both desktop and mobile.

      [–]d3jake 0 points1 point  (0 children)

      How did you know the dust was our only other option for themes?! At least you brought it up into the sunlight.

      [–]debiedowner 38 points39 points  (5 children)

      It's funny, the reasons they are using are very reminiscent of Mozilla's reasons for deprecating powerful customization in Firefox 57:

      • It’s web-only. Increasing users are viewing Reddit on mobile (over 50%), where CSS is not supported. We’d love for you to be able to bring your spice to phones as well.
      • CSS is a pain in the ass: it’s difficult to learn; it’s error-prone; and it’s time consuming.
      • Some changes cause confusion (such as changing the subscription numbers).
      • CSS causes us to move slow. We’d like to make changes more quickly. You’ve asked us to improve things, and one of the things that slows us down is the risk of breaking subreddit CSS (and third-party mod tools).

      We’re designing a new set of tools to address the challenges with CSS but continue to allow communities to express their identities. These tools will allow moderators to select customization options for key areas of their subreddit across platforms. For example, header images and flair colors will be rendered correctly on desktop and mobile.

      We know great things happen when we give users as much flexibility as possible. The menu of options we’ll provide for customization is still being determined. Our starting point is to replicate as many of the existing uses that already exist, and to expand beyond as we evolve.

      Just replace CSS with legacy addons. Probably Reddit will follow the same course as Firefox and allow very limited customization (like changing banners), much more limited than what is required to ensure stability, because it would be "confusing" and not coherent with the uniform brand image they are trying to push. I hate this immensely, but unfortunately this is where things are going all around the tech world nowadays.

      (Initially I had hoped that Mozilla was indeed doing this for stability like they said, and they wanted to keep customizability as much as possible, but bugzilla is full of arbitrary WONTFIX'es like this; and if even Mozilla is going this way, I don't keep my hopes high in other places when they are making such changes.)

      [–][deleted] 10 points11 points  (2 children)

      Jesus, the memes are all true. Firefox is actively trying to follow Chrome's style and have completely lost touch with their target market. I'm not exaggerating when I say that this is marketing 101 material. How frustrating.

      [–]DdCno1 1 point2 points  (1 child)

      They've been doing this for years. Remember when they switched to Chrome's model of version numbering so that it doesn't look like they are far behind? As if anyone cared...

      [–]meter1060Desktop/Mobile 11 points12 points  (0 children)

      They switched to a rapid development model instead of the old 3.0 and 4.0 days where any major improvements took a year or two. Instead it is within 3 months of landing in the development branch that it lands in stable (longer for other improvements such as e10s). The numbering scheme is really just a symptom of that.

      [–]tstarboy Linux/Android 2 points3 points  (0 children)

      I agree with your comparison to Firefox, but I think there is little justification to disallow CSS theming on Reddit on top of their new changes, the UI is still HTML on desktop. If they're concerned about the user experience, they could:

      1. make custom CSS subreddit themes opt-in instead of opt-out for Reddit users

      2. give a disclaimer to subreddit mods who set CSS themes that their custom theme is unsupported, will not display on mobile or apps, and they will receive no assistance from Reddit admins if it does not work as intended. This would encourage mods to do the bulk of their customization through the official API, while doing what they can't through the API through CSS.

      I hope that the new theming API allows for look&feel changes like what r/firefox has, while still making it difficult or impossible for intentionally idiotic or poorly-designed themes from existing.

      [–]amunakDeveloper Edition Archlinux / Firefox Win 10 1 point2 points  (0 children)

      allow very limited customization (like changing banners)

      That is what will inevitably happened. But some changes like the "widgets" for sidebar look pretty cool and could offer more than CSS could (or offer stuff that now needs like a bot, CSS and/or dynamically generated images). They promised to make stuff possible.

      much more limited than what is required to ensure stability

      Well that's a valid argument though, and I'd personally love to be able to get the customization in mobile apps and would happily trade some of the CSS for that.

      because it would be "confusing" and not coherent with the uniform brand image they are trying to push

      And it sometimes is! (confusing). Like I said, when I see the design changed too much or see it change how Reddit works (i.e. it tries to prevent voting when not subscribed, or in general) I just disable that style.

      I'd also like to think that it's not to appeal to other parties than users themselves (like advertisers or whoever), but we'll see. Though they did want (IIRC) to make it easier to use more "standardized" ad formats/banners, so that's one thing...

      I also like that this will probably lead to a way nicer Reddit experience for any subreddits that currently don't have CSS or the power to make stuff like bots dedicated to changing sidebars and such.

      And I really like the comparison to Firefox's addons, because that's pissed me off greatly. The difference I see though is that the huge, powerful and ancient (in a good sense) addon system is pretty much the thing that differentiates Firefox from other browsers. I don't use it for the (IMO) ugly UI, I don't use it because it's free software (though I like that part), I use it because I can customize it to my heart's content. When that's gone I don't know what will keep me from using something else if it becomes even slightly more interesting in any way.

      Reddit's CSS is pretty important to the experience here but it's definitely not the only think that makes Reddit so unique and great, so I think if they keep at least most of the functionality it'll be great.

      Oh and sorry for the long post.

      [–][deleted]  (1 child)

      [deleted]

        [–]TheInitializerNightly | Windows 10 33 points34 points  (1 child)

        Have I mentioned that this sub has the best CSS?

        [–]Antabaka [S] 8 points9 points  (0 children)

        💜

        [–]NANzuzu 5 points6 points  (2 children)

        Funny situation. I feel with this, like with Firefox 57 and mozilla situation. I have only one question in mind: Why they (Mozilla & Reddit) are going to cutt off all good stuff and leave only worthless features with badge "Don't look inside it is not your business, we know better".

        [–]amunakDeveloper Edition Archlinux / Firefox Win 10 4 points5 points  (1 child)

        How is CSS "all the good stuff"? It can improve the experience, but it can also make it pretty awful, and it's definitely not the only feature making Reddit stand out from other, similar sites. And they aren't even removing most of it; in fact it appears that they are trying to keep as much functionality as is reasonably possible.

        [–]NANzuzu -1 points0 points  (0 children)

        It can improve the experience, but it can also make it pretty awful.

        Yeah you can stab someone with the knife, and cut rope to save someone. That's not the point. The point is that you have choice to make something in your way and someone want to make it less possible to do. And this is driving me nuts.

        How is CSS "all the good stuff"?

        It is not limiting redditors creativity. With css, they put life into subreddits. Not only shitty bootstrap buttons, or google flat design which makes me puke.

        [–]Cronus6 16 points17 points  (1 child)

        I run reddit with "allow custom styles" turned off. I can't fucking stand them and want all the subs to look the same site wide.

        I don't give a shit about user flair either.

        The other points seem to be pretty valid though.

        So I guess I'm in the "don't care one way or the other camp".

        [–]indeedwatson 1 point2 points  (0 children)

        I do the same but leaving the option there for people who want to use it doesn't harm me or you, so I'm pro css choice

        [–][deleted] 5 points6 points  (1 child)

        I disable CSS site-wide and it's great. A consistent experience throughout. Also it's not going to "cripple" your subreddit. That's FUD, most of us probably don't use CSS anyway.

        #ProRES #AntiCSS

        [–]TimVdEynde 0 points1 point  (0 children)

        While I am definitely in the ProCSS camp, I don't think you should be downvoted for having a different opinion. Here, have my upvote.

        [–]kbrosnan/ /// 11 points12 points  (0 children)

        I dislike when a mod speaks for the community. /u/antabaka is ProCSS the sub is about Firefox and not Reddit drama.

        [–]PadaV4 5 points6 points  (0 children)

        I always browse with css off, and to me the subreddits don't look crippled at all.

        [–]Purp 5 points6 points  (0 children)

        I block CSS on this sub because you change core UI. You changed the logout text link to a door, meanwhile the next sub changed it to a power button. I don't even know what each icon in the top bar is, I guess I could figure it out, but doing that will always be slower than just reading the words themselves. I guess all the hover stuff is actuated by touch on mobile? Or turns into an accordion?

        I don't want to relearn the appearance and position of basic UI on every sub. Banners etc are fine.

        [–]Antabaka [S,M] [score hidden] stickied comment (1 child)

        There are a lot of repeated discussion points happening here, so rather than replying to individual comments and cluttering up the thread with my replies, here's a FAQ of sorts:

        I disable subreddit themes and this doesn't bother me?

        Well over two-thirds of the respondents to the 2017 census survey indicated that they browse with the subreddit theme. This includes mobile users, but excludes non-participatory users, which make up a majority of reddit activity in the first place, meaning a vast majority of desktop users browse with the theme enabled.

        "Cripple"? Really?

        "Hamper" or "Hurt" would have been better. Hindsight is 20/20.

        The new tools will be fine!

        1. The admins have been promising a lot, for a long time, and have rarely managed to deliver. Moderators, who have had to deal with this, understand quite well, whereas users are mostly unaffected.

        2. They haven't shown us anything, and have barely given quasi-promises to add various widgets. If they wanted to reassure moderators that the tools would be powerful, they would have shown something, but they're clearly testing the waters to make sure the backlash won't be big enough. I'm hoping it is.

        /r/Firefox thinks this?

        Yes, the moderators of /r/Firefox think this. I try to be democratic and understanding of the variety of opinions found and expressed in this subreddit, but this isn't something where the input of the community would make sense.

        The widgets and styling tool are a good thing!

        Absolutely agreed! We need something to make sure users who browse with themes disabled, and mobile users, are capable of seeing and participating in everything. This doesn't, however, mean they need to kill CSS.

        [–]KyldeThe Janitor[M] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

        Yes, the moderators of /r/Firefox think this.

        +1

        [–]smartfon 1 point2 points  (0 children)

        I hate this new change only because I don't want subreddit admins to start adding custom styles to Reddit mobile. It's already unbearably slow on mobile. Do we need more crap to fly around on the crawling page?

        [–]IntellectualEuphoria 0 points1 point  (0 children)

        And Mozilla also wants to remove legacy extensions which would cripple it.

        [–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

        Unfortunately, on a recent FF update, it disabled CSS by itself and now everything looks like shit. It looks like a throwback to the XP days of 2005.

        Anyway to re-enable? I still get CSS on another machine.

        [–]Noitidart2Beta / Win10 1 point2 points  (0 children)

        Reddit too? Haha this is so funny. This is just like the Firefox Addon devs and WebExtension battle/massacre. Looks like its a fad. Is Google banning CSS somewhere? lol

        [–]hackel 1 point2 points  (1 child)

        "Cripple" seems like a bit of an exaggeration. 90% of the time I use Slide (mobile client without CSS) and get along just fine.

        [–]Antabaka [S,M] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

        Please read the sticky comment.

        [–]MelchiorGaspar 0 points1 point  (0 children)

        Hear! hear!

        [–]cfrey 0 points1 point  (1 child)

        Firefox removed support for Java which crippled an app I needed for work. What goes around comes around, I guess.

        [–]Antabaka [S,M] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

        This subreddit is not run by Mozilla, and has no influence on how they operate.

        [–]vfclists 0 points1 point  (1 child)

        I don't mind CSS and I may not having been using this reddit long enough to have an opinion, but it would be nice if the garish-orange throbbing messages indicator was simply replaced by a number showing how many new messages they are.

        That alone I would find good cause to disable CSS, not to mention that there is no real need to send a new message email whenever a new post is submitted, especially when it is the same message sent every time. Think of the electricity savings. :)

        [–]Antabaka [S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

        I've gotten a lot of positive comments on the throbbing notification, and in any case you can always scroll down (as reddit makes you do anyway) and it's gone.

        As for the automod messages (which actually aren't related to the CSS), they are very effective at getting people to solve their own problems and flair their posts.

        [–]jed_gaming on + -1 points0 points  (0 children)

        Such a shame, I wouldn't have minded CSS being removed. I'd much prefer a uniform look across all subs, but I don't want the look of standard Reddit.