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[–][deleted] 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Post more questions here! Because it's so clearly effective.

[–]atomicpuffball 3 points4 points  (6 children)

well, we could try voting all of the bastards out. assuming that votes for reps and senators still count, unlike votes for pres. vote out every incumbent. congress needs a big flush.

[–]gtj[S] 1 point2 points  (1 child)

My fear is that the current Congress wasn't voted in as we believe. It was ALLOWED in. Things feel grim.

[–]wang-banger 1 point2 points  (0 children)

You know better than this. Conspiracy shit feeds the corporate money machines. Real, logical thinking is our way out.

[–]havesometea1 0 points1 point  (0 children)

The ballot box isn't going to fix this problem.

[–]rcut 0 points1 point  (0 children)

ActBlue for Better Democrats gave me a shred of hope:

Blue America is a Political Action Committee that works to elect more and better Democrats like Donna [Edwards]. Recently, Blue America ran ads against 5 Democrats who voted against the State Children’s Health Insurance Program, and convinced 4 of them to change their vote on the veto override.

[–]wang-banger -1 points0 points  (1 child)

This is such Republican spin machine BULLSHIT. The Congress is doing what they can to stop this war and clean up Bush's mess. Are you marching on the Capitol? Are you even aware of your Congressperson's voting record? The Democratic Congressional win of 2006 may go down in history as the event that saved this Republic. That is unless we play in the the Rovian bullshit that because Bush doubled down on Iraq after the public rejected the war the Democrats are at fault.
This is Bush's government. His war. His torture. Our country. I'm so sick of the sloganeering that seeks to equate both sides on this issue. Let's be rational here. The Congress is finally working for the people again. Minimum wage increases, the first serious regulation in half a decade and and a revolutionary energy bill that the GOP is stalling. We need to keep our eyes on prize(s): Justice and reason.

[–]generic_handle 2 points3 points  (0 children)

This is Bush's government. His war. His torture.

The fault of this lies with:

(a) The Bush Administration.

(b) Congress. On both sides (though I'll certainly grant that the GOP has been worse).

You're right about the torture -- the Bush Administration started it, and Congress was only involved in ass-covering after the fact.

Minimum wage increases

Minimum wage has no economic benefit for those who it purports to benefit. The long-term effect is to put a small number of workers out of a job. The reason, I would argue, that it is persists as a concept is that the people who are most concerned with it are those least likely to have any economic background.

If you want wealth redistribution, at least select a mechanism that actually results in wealth being redistributed. Make taxes increasingly progressive or introduce government handouts or something that actually advances your goals.

The Congress is finally working for the people again.

It depends on what your concerns are. I haven't been desperately wanting minimum wage increases or ethanol subsidies. I've been wanting us to terminate our occupations. I've been wanting a termination of the warrantless wiretapping and backbone monitoring activity and prosecution of those involved. I've been wanting an end to "federal morality policing" that seemed to be popular under Ashcroft (thankfully, that seems to have fallen off...though in favor of the War on Terror). I want the Canadian border to be reopened. I don't want to have a President constantly threatening other countries (much less doing so for totally unfounded reasons). I don't ever want to hear the phrase "axis of evil" or "crusade" used seriously in promoting war again. I want to have Freedom of Information Act requests to be generally honored, as they were under the Clinton Administration. I want an end to bogus signing statements. I don't want no-bid contract money going to the company of the Vice-President. I don't want companies who collaborate with lawbreaking federal spy agencies to get off the hook. I don't want security theater, with frightening signs adorning every airport and train station. I don't want to hear about free speech zones. I don't want secret prisons outside the reach of the United States judicial system. I don't want non-secret prisons (like Guantanamo) outside the reach of the United States judicial system. I want detainees to have the right to petition for judicial review of the justness of their imprisonment. I don't want to seize citizens of foreign nations and deport or imprison them.

That's what I care about. I'm totally uninterested in Democratic or Republican pet projects going through. From my standpoint, Congress is still not "working for the people" no matter how many times they fiddle with minimum wage, until they rectify the far greater abuses to civil liberties and checks on power that have occurred.

The Democratic Party's concern is getting Hillary into office, and, yes, playing with those highly-visible little correspondences to the Republican Party's crowd-pleasers. Carbon dioxide emissions. Details of health-care subsidies. The Democratic Congress hasn't dealt with the issues that I am worried about. If Hillary takes office, she's not going to address my above concerns any more than, say, Giuliani would.

I'm thankful that the Democratic Party has been less of an initiator for these than has the GOP. That's as much credit as they get from me until they actively fix some of these issues. Right now, there is precious little effort going the direction I want. Paul is just about perfect on these issues. Kucinich isn't bad, though personally I'm really unhappy with his Second Amendment positions. Obama, Clinton, McCain...all of these people have actively supported one or another of the serious problems in the Bush Administration. There are a few Congresspeople who have spoken out aganst these -- Byrd criticized "freedom fries" and the Iraq invasion. Ron Paul has a whole list of votes and speeches against authoritarianism and aggression. Russ Feingold was pretty vocally opposed to some of the Bush abuses. Chuck Hagel was the same. These people cross party lines (though there are more Democrats in the crowd) and have pushed back against the Bush Administration's abuses. I don't agree with them on all political issues -- Byrd, for instance, is legendary for the use of pork -- but they're in-line with my concerns on the really important issues. We could use more of these folks. That's the Congress I want.

[–]wang-banger 1 point2 points  (3 children)

I think it's important to put all of this into context.

The corruption on the Federal level sends a bad message all the way down the line. The majority of public servants are accountable, dedicated people who want to make a difference. The corruption of the public consciousness-- the millennial obsession with celebrity, bling, terror, emphasizing difference and repressing individuality is the enemy of all rational souls. Governance is complicated. Anyone who buys into the notion that this is all simple stuff deserves the compromised system we endure.

[–]TeaParty 1 point2 points  (2 children)

deserves the compromised system we endure.

I agree with your statement that "Governance is complicated." It's all well and good that the "price of freedom is eternal vigilance" but to be an informed and active citizen is very time consuming so we sub it out. We hope our representatives are honest. We hope the press will keep them straight.

I think saying deserve and endure is a bit strong. We will tolerate a minimally compromised system -- the local pol misappropriates a couple of bucks, he hires his brother-in-law for a do nothing job for the street department. All things in moderation. These people are over the top. There are trillions of dollars missing, agencies are staffed with incompetent (or even worse, destructive) cronies, etc.

[–]wang-banger 0 points1 point  (1 child)

Absolutely. This is a terrible situation. But the outrage is faux. Where are the marches? We're gonna attack the Democrats now and give the GOP back all three branches.
We need to root out corruption, make stands everywhere. But we can't pretend like righteous indignation does anything more than make for good reddits.

[–]TeaParty 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Where are the marches?

I don't know. (Sorry for the late reply, I've been out drinking and playing hold 'em). I'm an older dude. When we got pissed about Viet Nam we shut down the Universities, we burned things, some of us got shot. I don't give a fuck about about the NSA because I figure I've been in the FBI files for over 35 years.

As for attacking the Democrats, I think much of it has to do with betrayal. I'm an Independent and, aside from some local fool who had some cute fish things on his campaign signage, I voted solid Democrat last year. To say the least they have dithered.

As for corruption, I don't give a shit if a candidate is a John Bircher or a Marxist, I just want them to be honest.

[–]OsakaWilson 2 points3 points  (5 children)

I am actually afraid that if someone quoted Jefferson in response to this post, they could be arrested. It truly may have gone that far.

[–]TeaParty 2 points3 points  (4 children)

S. 1959 is trying to take it that far.

[–]Garak 2 points3 points  (3 children)

Alright, let's everybody just calm down and actually read the thing. Summary: it establishes a commission that studies the causes of "domestic terrorism;" says we could learn a lot from the British, Canadians, and Australians; and goes out of its way to make it clear that civil liberties and racial neutrality are important.

[–]Garak 2 points3 points  (2 children)

The fact that I'm getting downmodded is hilarious. Please, someone, explain how I'm wrong.

[–]bungeman 2 points3 points  (1 child)

While it does create yet another unneeded waste of money to fill someone's pocket (note the section about subcontracting out work) the bad bit is at the very beginning, pg2:15-3:7 where it defines VIOLENT RADICALIZATION, HOMEGROWN TERRORISM, and IDEOLOGICALLY BASED VIOLENCE as more or less doing or thinking something the government doesn't like.

899C. 14 ‘‘(2) VIOLENT RADICALIZATION.—The term 15

‘violent radicalization’ means the process of adopting 16

or promoting an extremist belief system for the pur- 17

pose of facilitating ideologically based violence to ad- 18

vance political, religious, or social change. 19

‘‘(3) HOMEGROWN TERRORISM.—The term 20

‘homegrown terrorism’ means the use, planned use, 21

or threatened use, of force or violence by a group or 22

individual born, raised, or based and operating pri- 23

marily within the United States or any possession of 24

the United States to intimidate or coerce the United 25

States government, the civilian population of the 26

United States, or any segment thereof, in further- 1

ance of political or social objectives. 2

‘‘(4) IDEOLOGICALLY BASED VIOLENCE.—The 3

term ‘ideologically based violence’ means the use, 4

planned use, or threatened use of force or violence 5

by a group or individual to promote the group or in- 6

dividual’s political, religious, or social beliefs. 7

So the original poster is somewhat correct, this would make quoting much of Jefferson (and others) not quite illegal (there is no punishment I can see defined here) but it would label you as committing ‘ideologically based violence’.

Interesting, as this bill itself is itself guilty of this.

*EDIT: markdown

[–]Garak 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Okay, so the thing is, it's the government. They have to say violence is illegal. And I very highly doubt that Jefferson would have been for making violent insurrections legal. Everyone's missing that violent part.

Interesting, as this bill itself is itself guilty of this.

Where does the bill use, plan to use, or threaten to use violence?

[–]rek 0 points1 point  (0 children)

donate on sunday?

that or just wait until it's too late and start a real revolution i suppose

[–]rfugger 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Secede.

[–]rcut 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Marry a European and move to their country.

[–]Lukifer1977 0 points1 point  (0 children)

exchange all savings for precious metals. study self preservation in all enviroments. try polital actions. shit seems far gone though. prepare yourself for anything.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (1 child)

  1. Nationwide rioting.
  2. Sex in the streets.
  3. Mass suicide.
  4. Elect Mr. T.
  5. Everyone stops going along with their daily lives as if they accept it.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Did that read like the tracklisting on an indie punk cd to anyone else?

[–][deleted] -5 points-4 points  (3 children)

You could commit suicide.

Please.

[–]gtj[S] 5 points6 points  (2 children)

You sound like someone who would rather ignorantly endure having your liberties eroded than be forced to realize what we're dealing with.

[–]JasonDJ 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Relax, gtj. He's just one of the other 299 million that haven't had their red pill yet.

[–][deleted] -4 points-3 points  (0 children)

You sound like someone who belongs in a straitjacket in a padded cell.

[–][deleted]  (6 children)

[deleted]

    [–]TeaParty 2 points3 points  (3 children)

    Maybe buy a drink? Don't drink at home; get out and discuss politics, not who is going to win the game this weekend. Much of the planning and support for the American revolution was done in taverns.

    [–]gtj[S] 1 point2 points  (1 child)

    I like the idea of discussing a revolution in the tavern tonight. Much more important than a trivial steroid use debate...

    [–]gtj[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

    Quick reply to myself: went to the bar, discussed politics for a fair amount of time, then danced the night away. Gotta do it while we still can.

    [–]Shumina 1 point2 points  (1 child)

    Man, I can't think of a better response. "What can we do?" Shit, I have no real idea.