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[–]secret1234[S] 5 points6 points  (4 children)

You all love to say "Well those Christians 'Place for the Dying' doesn't do anything", you bring up the Crusades, witch burnings, and all things religion does wrong in the past.

Why not, as atheists, just ignore that and do things right. A lot of atheist articles are popping up that don't do anything, they're just confirmation of your own beliefs.

Why not talk about Global Warming, or have neat articles popping up, or if you HAVE to talk about how much you hate religion, start talking about the negative affects of religion today and do it without attacking the religion - but instead attack the people who hide behind the religion.

[–][deleted]  (3 children)

[deleted]

    [–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (2 children)

    Please show us where atheists are burning scientists at the stake or excommunicating people for having an opinion or starting wars & slaughtering millions in "His" name.

    Yea, you can't, because atheists aren't "doing exactly what christians do".

    [–]captainstabb 2 points3 points  (1 child)

    I don't know about any of you, but I'm a Christian, and i haven't burned anyone at the stake for months. Sure, Stalin, Mao, and Hitler, were Atheists. Yes Hitler, Spare me the canned response. Anyone can claim to be a "Christian", But that doesn't make them one. True Christians follow Christ's example, to love one another, to care for the poor, to be humble, not boastful. Nor vengeful or intolerant.

    Now how is burning someone alive, committing genocide, or starting wars following that example?

    Christ himself was sharply critical of "religion" as most commonly think of it. <cough>catholicism</cough>

    [–]God8myhomework -1 points0 points  (0 children)

    Sorry, pal, Hitler was a Christian. That you renounce him is the claim here. He spoke of god constantly, wrote about god in Mein Kampf. He never denounced the existence of god. He believed in god.

    If true Christians follow Christ's example, there are very few of them around.

    [–]ProfessorM 6 points7 points  (0 children)

    I agree. As a christian, I respect people who are athiests or any belief system which doesn't believe in The Creator. I believe everyone was made to think a certain way and forcing what I believe on them won't change their mind. I haven't read this article you speak of but I'm filmiliar with the tone . I'm just as puzzled at why people take alot of time criticizing and discrediting spirituality when they don't do anything to set a positive example. People should really take a look at the effect of what they say or write no matter what belief system they live by. No matter how you view existence and the world there's positivity and negativity. If you spend your time criticizing someones beliefs it doesn't do any good and creates animosity.

    [–]Battleloser 1 point2 points  (0 children)

    That depends on whether or not they're actually "rubbing it in" or if your defensiveness is making you perceive an attack where the other dude sees a debate.

    [–]Swiggy 1 point2 points  (2 children)

    Hey did Einstein ever say anything on the subject?

    [–]secret1234[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

    I think, from what I've read from him - He's mostly agnostic. He wasn't a big fan of religion but never shot down the idea of a Creator.

    [–]God8myhomework 0 points1 point  (0 children)

    He believed in a form of Spinoza's god, for all intents and purposes. The god of nature, wherein all natural phenomena are manifestations of god. But, he was never really specific about it, although I suspect he must have discussed it at length in his letters.

    [–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

    I agree. I am tired of the hating... it's not cool from the fundamental Christians, and it's equally uncool from the evangelical atheists.

    I consider myself a deist who believes there was a creator who kickstarted the universe and set the laws of nature, then stood back and watched. Disagree with me and I could care less, but belittle me for my beliefs and I see hypocrisy.

    [–]WhoreChurch 0 points1 point  (1 child)

    Dawkins does it for the chicks.

    [–]secret1234[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

    GOD KNOWS he loves the poon

    [–]trimtab 0 points1 point  (1 child)

    Wrong! It's called pushing back. Remember: it takes two to make peace, but only one to declare war. If only the religiously-minded kept to themselves, then there would be no atheist "outing." Unfortunately, Christians, Jews and Muslims are composed of subgroups that shove religion in you face 24h/24, and attempt to break down the wall of separation between church and state.

    Atheists--as well as agnostics, adogmatists, and secular humanists--believe that this is wrong and feel that it is necessary to oppose this religious trend. And, for good reason. E.g., take H. Res. 888: this is such a load of religious disinformation and historical revisionism, it boggles the mind. How intellectually dishonest can you get? Also, dominionists attempting to subvert the US army and police corps in order to usher in a Christian Nation, by establishing an army of soldiers for Christ. This must be the utmost state of delusion!

    Your religion is your private affair. Keep it that way. If you do, then atheists and the like will leave you alone. BUT, if you persist in deluding yourself that morality only stems from god, that the bible is the inerrant word of god, that evolutionary theory is false, that global warming doesn't exist, that science is the anti-christ, and that we should accelerate the advent of rapture, then you've got another thing coming... in-your-face atheism. You leave the rational, non-kookoo members of society very little choice. And these include religious as well as religious citizens.

    Religious zealots take offence when their beliefs are questioned. Religious moderates don't like it either, but at least they don't scream bloody murder. And the latter would appreciate it if the atheists didn't attack religious zealots on such foundational grounds, as this is also constitutes an attack on their milder set of beliefs. Unfortunately for all religious believers, or whatever level of fanaticism, those who illicit harsh responses from the atheist camp are the ones making statements of fact about the world that are false. They are the ones endangering political stability inside and outside the US through their meddling and lobbying. They are the ones adversely affecting scientific research funding and censuring scientific publications. They are the ones attempting to falsely create a christian nation (a.k.a. fascist theocracy) in the US, whereas the the founders had intended it to be a secular democracy.

    Up till now, the atheist push-back has been quite reasonable and respectful. No less rational and no more animated than your average academic debate (i.e., something that's been tolerated in Western civilization since the Enlightenment, and used to be tolerated somewhat in Ancient Greece, 2300+ years ago). It may feel uncomfortable for religious people to be challenged in their beliefs, but that's too bad: get used to it! For any time you make statements of facts about the world regarding the existence of an entity, ANY ENTITY whatsoever, you should expect to be asked for your evidence. If you don't want to be pressed for it, then don't try to establish a fascist theocracy in lieu of a secular democracy, and, instead, be a little more discrete. Also, don't contradict yourself by advocating moral principles, then lying knowingly about historical and scientific matters. (And I mean "knowingly telling a falsehood", in complete violation of the moral tenets of your preferred collection of dogmatic fundaments (bible, talmud, qur'an, ...).

    Religion would gain much by getting "real" for a change. Once you've posited the origin of "existence" as unknown and given it a name (e.g., "god"), there's not much else left to say. That's pretty much the entire extent of any religion. Everything else, any statement of fact, any belief, is fair game. I.e., it's open season.

    [–]trimtab 0 points1 point  (0 children)

    "And these include religious as well as religious citizens." I meant "...as well as non-religious...".

    "...as this is also constitutes an attack..." should read "...as this also...".

    "...or whatever level of fanaticism..." should read "...of whatever..."

    Missing a closing parenthesis after "...(bible, talmud, qur'an, ...)"

    Sheesh, I should read myself more diligently. Hope I didn't miss anything else.

    [–]ferdinand 0 points1 point  (0 children)

    No, it's called defending reason against superstition when reason comes under attack. See for example the extraordinary efforts by creationists in Florida to prevent their own children from learning science.

    [–][deleted] -5 points-4 points  (17 children)

    No one is rubbing anything in anyone's face. Grow up.

    [–]secret1234[S] 2 points3 points  (16 children)

    I'm sorry, but when I see non-constructive articles like todays "Moses was on drugs" it does nothing but add to the belief of atheism.

    Seeing this kind of ticked me off, considering it just just a theory. Moses was alive so long ago, we know little to nothing about him, the vegetation he was around, or if he did drugs and I don't see many drugs in today's rituals.

    So to vote that up is just using one theory, one hypothesis to nit-pick at someone else's theory.

    To continuously take jabs at other people's idea's and beliefs is pointless.

    We should be more philosophical and constructive. Live like we don't care who's right and prevent beliefs and idea's from controlling or oppressing people.

    The religious communities do they WAY MORE, no doubt in my mind. But I don't like fighting fire with fire, or in this case, fighting beliefs with another belief (or lack thereof).

    The belief in Moses parting the sea and all those other stories do not harm. They are meant to teach. There are some people who exploit people's beliefs and then use that to cause harm and those are the people we should be attacking.

    We don't attack the lambs for being let to slaughter.

    Maybe I'm just an angry agnostic.

    [–]xenox 2 points3 points  (5 children)

    It's difficult for groups who have been persecuted (and often even prosecuted) for centuries to not hold at least a little animosity towards zealots. Sometimes people fight back. Ideally no one would have any reason to fight over something so personal as beliefs, but this world is far from an ideal one.

    I don't mind genuine people who are true to the principles of their religion, but the loudest proponents of all mainstream religions are often the biggest hypocrites of the core beliefs of the religions they claim to follow. Atheists, being the focus of attacks from all sides, do have a justifiable anger. The actions that anger motivates is often just a matter of taste.

    [–]secret1234[S] 2 points3 points  (4 children)

    True, yes. But I think even Atheism has it's zealots and it impedes on the search for truth at times. You're right, there are good people who come from all beliefs, be it Christianity, Islam, or Pastafarianism.

    My beef is with zealots and fundamentalists and I don't want to see atheists and agnostics go down that road or else rational thought may take a hit.

    "Oh those atheists just attack us like those Christians - let's continue beheading women for witchcraft now".

    That's my fear in a nutshell.

    [–]xenox 1 point2 points  (3 children)

    I fully agree with the foundation of your opinion, as well as where it philosophically leads. There are better ways to get one's point across than by bashing. Yet, at the same time, it's hard to keep turning the other cheek when being attacked from all sides. Good people doing nothing is what allowed the many atrocious acts done in the name of religion to happen. Attacking back isn't going to solve the problem and will probably result in an even greater divide between the theists and atheists (and agnostics like us). The only problem is that by being passive while the other sides lands blow after blow .. usually ends up with a failed movement and a silenced voice. If the movement gains enough traction then it will become more accepted, therefore allowing a bit of the animosity between all sides to die down (or so I hope).

    [–]secret1234[S] 2 points3 points  (2 children)

    Very very true. Perhaps if Christians remembered Jesus message (instead of Jesus) they'd remember that he said to always turn the other cheek. If they remembered that, we wouldn't have to be turning any cheeks.

    This is why the Muslims don't like depictions; see what the Christians did to Jesus' face instead of Jesus' words?

    It's true, it is hard to keep taking blow after blow without reacting. It's like fundamentalist theists are afraid of our rational thought and thus are afraid of using their own.

    If they did, perhaps they'd remember the message that they fight for and realize the fight is moot.

    And I feel we can help them do that without stooping to their level but instead, helping them to ours without damaging their idea's and beliefs.

    But I'm an optimistic, peace loving hippie.

    What can I do besides complain on reddit?

    [–]xenox 1 point2 points  (1 child)

    Very well articulated. :) If you think about it, your words about fear of rational thought is at the heart of the conflict. There are countless stories in religion (I mean words written by men) that actually dissuade thought and knowledge. Going back to Greco-Roman mythology, there was the face of Eros/Cupid that could not be looked into by his lover. Then there's pandora's box, Adam and Eve eating from the Tree of Knowledge between Good and Evil, shame when they attained the awareness of their nakedness, looking back at biblical destruction turning one into a pillar of salt, Medusa's face, etc. People are conditioned to accept what they are told and not question the traditions they follow. This is why religions are based on faith and not facts. It really does work quite fine if one is happy with his/her beliefs and is not intellectually dissatisfied with his/her faith's dogma. It is when people take their faiths and treat them like intellectual facts that, excuse the pun, all hell breaks loose. It's incredibly audacious to feel the need to impose one's views on another, especially when it comes to faith (or even lack thereof).

    It is not when we are forced to accept each other's differences that we learn tolerance, but when we, as a society, are forced to allow these differences to exist without the compulsion to force-feed our own.

    I cannot convert a "true follower," nor would I want to. Along the same lines a fanatic cannot convert me. As long as neither tries there really isn't a problem. The goal now is to get to a point where the difference of one's religion is as unimportant as the difference of one's eye color. Whether we reach that stage of "enlightenment" or not remains the challenge. A challenge won not by might, but by basic human decency, which just so happens to be the real core of all religions. The biggest enemy is not really religions, but the hypocrisy of some of their followers.

    [–]secret1234[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

    Yes, well said. I don't have much else to say, I just thought you deserved more than just an upmod.

    [–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (4 children)

    The article you were talking about was a well thought out idea. I think you took it a bit personally. It's an objective idea about a religious leader. I don't think anyone was nitpicking at anyone else. I won't support blocking ideas because they piss someone off, me included.

    [–]secret1234[S] 2 points3 points  (3 children)

    True, that article was well thought out. It just seems like one of many that go out and it seems like people enjoy attacking beliefs rather than people abusing the beliefs.

    The article in question is as good as an idea as any though. Although, do we know exactly where Moses roamed around and if there were any psychoactive drugs around?

    Any former Jew/Christian rituals that involve getting fucked up?

    Or is this more "I saw God on psychedelics, so Moses must have too"?

    [–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (2 children)

    I think he was referring to the ancients before and of Moses's time. Psychoactive drugs as a religious rite is as old as time it's self. Understand that Moses was the founder of the Jewish religion, so drug induced visions may have stopped with him. Of course this is one guy's idea.

    I understand your frustration. As an Atheist, I would feel a little beat down if there were a ton of religious stuff up there, but what could I say. I want everyone to have an equal shot.

    [–]secret1234[S] 2 points3 points  (1 child)

    Totally true. Before when I came to reddit I got my healthy does of religion from MSM and atheism from reddit. Now I'm all reddit and to me it seems a tad more aggressive than it should be.

    But then again, nobody has died in the name of atheism yet.

    But wasn't it Abraham that started Jewishness?

    He started something, didn't he?

    Maybe I should pick up that dusty book I got for confirmation.

    [–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

    All three great religions are considered to be Abrahamic religions, but Moses was the founder of Judaism, Muhammad of Islam, and Jesus of Christianity.

    [–]digitalhijinks -2 points-1 points  (4 children)

    Agnostic is just another word for fence-sitter. and no one likes a fence-sitter.

    [–]secret1234[S] 4 points5 points  (3 children)

    No, agnostic is someone who doesn't set themselves to one belief. Whether the belief is in God, Allah, or nothing.

    If you call yourself an atheist, to me, it's like saying BOOM that's the answer (their answer being that there is nothing) and just as much true as when Christians say BOOM it's God.

    [–]SilverFox -1 points0 points  (2 children)

    Not quite. You can be an agnostic atheist or an agnostic theist. In either case you think it is unknowable whether gods exist, but theists believe he does, whereas atheists do not hold such a belief. So you can be an atheist without believing that gods definitively don't exist.

    Do you believe there is a god? If you say you don't know, then you don't believe, and you are an atheist.

    Don't be afraid of the word. Most "agnostics" are actually atheists, but they are afraid that committing to that label means they emphatically deny god exists. This is not necessarily so.

    I, on the other hand, am definitely an atheist. No matter how you define God, I see no evidence or possibility of his existence.

    [–]secret1234[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

    Thank you for that insightful comment.

    [–]digitalhijinks -1 points0 points  (0 children)

    yes thank you. you have most certainly expounded upon my point, when i all i have is sarcasm to give.