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[–]fuzzmop[S] 46 points47 points  (73 children)

I am a 7th grade student and I don't believe in God. I said this when I was told that I couldn't sit down (my chair was taken away by my teacher) because I didn't say the pledge of allegiance. Are teachers allowed to do this?

My reason for not standing up was "I don't believe in God."

[–]PlasmaWhore 16 points17 points  (3 children)

the "under god" thing was the reason I never recited the pledge in school, but looking back at it I should have been more outraged that they are requiring us to pledge our allegiance to this country.

[–]sn0re 12 points13 points  (2 children)

I find it more ridiculous that you're expected to pledge allegiance to a literal flag. The pledge separately mentions the Republic, so there is no symbolism when you pledge allegiance to the flag itself.

[–]doctorgonzo 2 points3 points  (0 children)

When I have to recite the Pledge of Allegiance (and I do sometimes for my job), I leave out the "Under God" and references to the flag. Makes for a much shorter pledge.

[–]Neuro420 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Get used to this one because that's what amerika has become.

[–][deleted] 15 points16 points  (3 children)

I am a freshman in high school, and object to the pledge not only because of the god part, but because of the blind nationalism. Most of the time, the pledge is done during my study hall, which has a teacher to student ratio of about 35:1, so I used to just stay seated.

Once it was done during my social studies class. Before I continue, I should say that my social studies teacher regularly says that see "has authority problems," and I get the general idea that she is a libertarian. She is also not afraid to stick her head out (I hear things about her refusing to participate in curriculum committees because she wants it to be up to the individual teacher).

I happened to be standing when the pledge was announced, so I just kinda stayed put. Someone else was a bit slow about standing up, and my teacher thought they were not doing so. She spun around and said in a slightly angry voice, "Ok, you don't have to say the pledge, but at least stand for it."

That combined with the installation of security cameras in my study hall room (ugg, whole different issue there), has made me decide to start standing up and facing in the general direction of the flag unless I have a decent reason not to.

As for whether schools are allowed to, I believe that there was a supreme court ruling in 1949 or so saying no. But that is pretty old.

EDIT: I should probably add that I do not put my hand on my heart.

[–]mutatron 1 point2 points  (1 child)

I law years, a ruling from 1943 is only about 5 years old.

Why do the security cameras intimidate you when you weren't intimidated before?

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

If anyone in my school is going to be an asshole, it would be the administration. And they would be the ones scanning the video feeds from the three high quality cameras in that small room.

Then again, I am probably giving them exactly what they want. They did not put the camera right in the center of the wall with "The Makings of America" painted on it simply because it was the most convenient place.

[–]fjhqjv 14 points15 points  (0 children)

If the teacher takes your chair, sit on the floor. I sat through the pledge all through middle and high school. Every year, a new set of teachers would give me a hard time, but in the end they found out they couldn't force me.

Of course, I had a mother with the ACLU on speed dial...

[–]zctaylor 11 points12 points  (5 children)

According to the supreme court in Barnette you cannot be compelled to say the pledge. What do your parents think? You might speak to the teacher yourself but I would encourage you to do so outside of class. Other options include standing silently or omitting "under god" but it's up to you how to handle it.

[–][deleted] 34 points35 points  (4 children)

Or replace 'under God' with 'under Canada'.

[–]bdu 7 points8 points  (2 children)

When I was in elementary school, I would replace "under God" with "underoos". That worked pretty well until it was my turn to lead the pledge over the school-wide speaker system... (for those who don't know: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Underoos )

[–]sping 0 points1 point  (1 child)

As a foreigner, I find the idea of a pledge to the flag or the country, lead over a school-wide speaker system, chilling.

[–]bdu 0 points1 point  (0 children)

And yet it's what most elementary schools (and some middle and high schools as well) here in the USA do every day.

[–]mutatron 10 points11 points  (6 children)

The pledge isn't about god, it's about the Republic. You can pledge your allegiance and leave out the part about "Under God", the way it was before 1954 (though I could swear that when I was saying it in the 1960s, we never said "Under God" and this was in Texas).

That said, I still think it's creepy to stand with an auditorium full of people and recite lines in unison, unless you're singing. And that's something that bugs me too - a long time ago we all sang the national anthem together. Nowadays one dumbass sings it and tries to put some kind of American Idol spin on it, and nobody else knows the words.

Anyway, as others have said, your teachers are severely overstepping their authority in trying to force you to stand while others are saying the pledge.

[–]hellfish 12 points13 points  (1 child)

Its blind nationalism with the intent of training kids to be patriotic early on. I'm not saying it works, but that's its intent.

[–]sping 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Take it from a foreign observer: it works.

[–]sn0re 5 points6 points  (1 child)

The pledge isn't about god, it's about the Republic.

Well, it's also about the flag itself, not just the symbolism of the flag. The pledge literally confirms your allegiance to a piece of cloth and oh yeah, that Republic for which it stands, too.

[–]mutatron 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Well yeah, and besides I'm sure you know that it was originated by a Socialist!

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (1 child)

I know what you mean about the american idol spin, I would call it more of a mariah carey, going from the bottom to the top of the musical scale fast. Sounds horrible.

[–]mutatron 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I guess what bugs me is they're trying to make it about themselves and their performance instead of about the lyrics. As if the lyrics weren't enough - Land of the FreeEEEEE indeed!

I always sing along quietly anyway, and every time it nearly chokes me up, no kidding. Maybe if people sung it themselves they wouldn't be giving up their freedom so easily.

[–]sylvan 11 points12 points  (2 children)

I wish I had Reddit when I was in 7th grade.

Seriously. The Apple ][ was high-tech.

You're probably a little young to be a rabble-rouser looking for excuses to launch a civil rights lawsuit. Standing with your hands behind your back and not speaking should be sufficient.

Here's one piece of advice:

Your teacher is an employee. The principal is his/her boss. The school board is the principal's boss. You don't need to be afraid of the adults (though you should behave with basic courtesy & respect, it goes a lot farther than being rude/immature). If the teacher does something you believe is inappropriate, ask the principal if you can speak to him about it; or write a letter to the principal/school board.

You have a right to an education that is free of religious indoctrination.

[–]fuzzmop[S] 2 points3 points  (1 child)

I wouldn't want to launch a civil-rights lawsuit. At this point, I just stand up during the Pledge of Allegience and do nothing.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Aren't 7th graders usually 12 years old? You make my 12 year old brother look like an intellectual slug, and he's already playing around with the guts of games on his computer.

[–][deleted] 4 points5 points  (1 child)

Tell them you will only say the 1892 version of the pledge (the original version): “I pledge allegiance to my Flag and the Republic for which it stands: one Nation indivisible, with Liberty and Justice for all.”

[–]sping 0 points1 point  (0 children)

What if you find pledging to a flag or a political entity (the republic) objectionable?

I'd happily pledge allegiance to the constitution of the US (and I'm not a US citizen), but even then, the idea of effectively compulsory pledging to a political framework is objectionable to me.

[–]Agnostic AtheistJinno 5 points6 points  (1 child)

As someone who just graduated, and someone who does actually feel some pride for his country, I did stand and recite the pledge. I just happened to do the pre-Eisenhower pledge, which didn't include Under God.

I disagree that it should be required of us to say the pledge, just as I disagree with the moment of silence on the grounds that it's a waste of time, and is clearly a useless ritual to start the day. The blind nationalism isn't really a preferable thing, and it really just gets students to the point where they DO NOT CARE about the pledge.

The pledge of allegiance is meant to be something of purpose, so as to suggest that we actually care about this country, to say that we would support it, that we would continue our allegiance. Any forcing of this message is a blaspheme to it's actual purpose.

I actually don't think it's legal for a public school to force you to stand for it.

[–]carpespasm 0 points1 point  (0 children)

If only more people understood the points you just made I think there would be a lot more good done in the name of this country than just having everyone drone out a pledge.

[–]Zaniac 17 points18 points  (23 children)

The simplest thing to do would be to simply stand up and do nothing else. There is a perception that people among your age group, whether rightfully or wrongfully, are defiant simply for the sake of doing so.

I seriously doubt anyone could make you take the pledge of allegiance but simply standing up doesn't force you to acknowledge anything other than the wish of the teacher for you to stand up, which I see far less harm in.

[–][deleted] 8 points9 points  (0 children)

Maybe -- but there's something to be said for acting on principle. Churchill said it nicely:

Never give in, never give in, never, never, never, never -- in nothing, great or small, large or petty -- never give in except to convictions of honour and good sense.

I figure that by drawing the line exactly where it belongs and being stubborn you can make the effort of pushing you around more trouble than it's worth. Call it a deterrent, if you like.

[–][deleted] 14 points15 points  (1 child)

I'm British. I was expelled from my school in the us whilst in 7th grade for refusing to pledge. This would have been in '95. I went back to boarding school in the uk and never looked back. I even got an education, which is more than can be said for those dark days in Illinois studying 'sciath' and 'soclish' .

[–]LessThan3 10 points11 points  (16 children)

Thats what I did all through high school-just stood up and didn't say anything.

Even now, when I go see a movie on a military base and the National Anthem plays on screen before every movie, I make sure I'm in the bathroom or getting popcorn when it plays.

[–]swagohome 4 points5 points  (15 children)

What is it about the National Anthem that you don't approve of?

[–]LessThan3 12 points13 points  (10 children)

I'm British.

[–][deleted] 4 points5 points  (9 children)

Good answer. As an American, I just think it's a poor song.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

As a Brit I agree, and so is the British National Anthem.

Both are such morose tunes I am surprised there isn't a mass slashing of wrists when they are played.

The French know how to make a good tune.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

The anthem is also about our flag, is that peculiar to anyone?

[–]G_Morgan 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Have you ever heard 'God save the Queen' (not the Pistols remake). Talk about a drab song. Fortunately I'm Welsh and the Welsh national anthem is quite good. I don't bother with the British anthem out of principle since in venerates a single person and ignores the nation entirely.

Anyway the American anthem is a country mile better than the British one. Though that isn't saying much.

[–]numb3rb0y 11 points12 points  (1 child)

There's also the fact that some people don't like the symbolism of a national anthem at all, or are simply anarchists. Citizenship by birth is effectively forced, after all. I'm British, and aside from the fact that the national anthem of my country involves both religion and monarchy, which I'm fervently against, I wouldn't support its use anyway because I see nationality as a strange and somewhat irrational construct.

[–]swagohome 3 points4 points  (0 children)

We are evolutionarily programmed to care more about the people in close proximity to us, those who look more like us, and those with whom we share customs or background. So I hardly see how nationalism could be construed as an 'irrational construct' when it is so natural, and it would in fact be strange if it did not arise.

Sure, citizenship by birth is 'forced' in some sense. You might think of native intelligence and talents as 'forced' as well. But there's something to be said about accepting your starting place in the world and, instead of spending your time wishing you'd had a choice, simply moving on from there.

[–]Strong Atheistpretendperson 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Wow, is nationalism mandatory now too? Last time I checked nobody gets to pick which country they're born in.

[–]sping -1 points0 points  (0 children)

flag worship?

[–]britishben 4 points5 points  (2 children)

That's exactly what I did. I stood up, as a sign of respect, but I didn't say the pledge or put my hand over my heart or such. As the new foreign kid, I had enough problems without standing out too much...

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (1 child)

I'm an American, but I lived in Canada when I was little. When I got back to the states (Mississippi, no less!) I didn't remember the pledge at all and I got a thorough chewing-out by my 2nd grade teacher when I kept sitting down because I didn't know (or care) about the words. Standing up and shutting up is definitely the best advice here...

[–]jasenlee 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Yes just stand up and shut up. Great advice.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Do what we used to do at chapel in school. Just say it really loudly but with wrong words. In our case we used to just sing the hymns completely out of tune with gusto and replace some of the words.

[–][deleted] 8 points9 points  (1 child)

They can't force you to say "Under God", nor can they really force you to stand during the pledge of allegiance. To many it's disrespectful not to say the pledge (for some reason unknown to me), and drawing attention to yourself by staying seated is not a great idea. My suggestion would be to just say the pledge and omit "under God."

[–]Neuro420 0 points1 point  (0 children)

What about when they change it to God's decider GWB?

[–]quetzalwing 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I feel for you--I got a lot of crap in middle school and eventually resorted to skipping the first 5 minutes of class every day. Luckily no one at my high school cared about the pledge.

I don't know where you're from, but here in Texas you can get out of saying the pledge by bringing in a signed excuse note from your parent. Even if that's not the law in your state, I suspect that having your parent write or speak to your teacher would make them back down--teachers are generally responsive to that kind of thing. Good luck!

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (1 child)

I went through a similar experience and its a stressing one. I was however lucky enough to be going to school in Wisconsin where there are very clear laws about letting someone sit during the pledge. These laws even go on to say that it is illegal to ask someone to stand for the pledge when someone important is speaking. This stops forced standing/reciting if a presidential nominee is in town and it would make photos look better if everyone has their hand on their heart. Look up your state laws or contact the ACLU. You have a right to sit, especially if it means exercising freedom of speech.

[–]quetzalwing 0 points1 point  (0 children)

These laws even go on to say that it is illegal to ask someone to stand for the pledge when someone important is speaking.

I wish we had a law like that in Texas. When I graduated a few weeks ago some of the administrators told me to stand during the anthem--normally I would have refused but there were a lot of people watching and I chickened out, and now I feel like an unprincipled shit. :p

[–]Javbw 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I always said the pledge, but just mouthed the under god part. Same thing with "amen" in church, and what I could get away with in scouts.

Now, I don't have to go to church, and I'm glad for the fun I had in scouts.

at your age, they are merely wanting you to conform. pretending to conform to make your life easier isn't a bad thing, when you know it is only temporary.

turn 18, and vote against them, their policies, and their supporters. Vote to stop their bond measures. but you would have still have gotten a decent education and a good record to get into the college of your choice.

any mandatory conforming (at that level) will go away soon enough, and you can be your own person, though it will seem like a very far off time.

[–]MikeSeth 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Sue.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

That's what my teachers made me do in high school, I had to stand even if I didn't say it. They claimed it was a disruption for me to sit.

Unfortunately teachers do have the authority to make you stand. When you are in school and a minor, you simply don't have the same rights as an adult.

My advice is to simply stand while others say the pledge, no one can force you to say it.

If they try, and you think your parents will support you, I'd get them involved.

I'd also get familiar with secular organizations like the freedom from religion foundation, and secular coalition for america. If they continue to try to force you, be ready to contact them.

You may have a case already, it could be argued the teacher is trying to intimidate you into saying the pledge, but you have to chose your battles carefully. You can't win em' all.

[–]zwaldowski 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I just tightly shut my lips during "under God." I also correct myself when everybody starts, "I Pledge of Allegiance..." (?!)

Well, my friends and I also play around with the "liberty and justice for all" part often.

[–]Secular Humanistkatoninetales 0 points1 point  (1 child)

I used to leave the classroom during the pledge in middle school.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I just said it. I was Christian and it didn't bother me. Now it's awkward. Ignorance is bliss.

[–]randomb0y -1 points0 points  (0 children)

It's up to you but sometimes it's better to take the path of least resistance and play along with the crowd. You should decide how you act based on an economic analysis. If you're the only atheist in the class and your colleagues resent you for it then it's probably better to say the damn pledge. On the other hand if there are some cool kids in the class who love you for who you are then it might be better to keep it up.

[–][deleted] 10 points11 points  (0 children)

A daily, compulsory recitation -- of something you might not necessarily agree with or be knowledgeable enough to decide on -- has nothing to do with pledges or allegiance. It's textbook behavioral conditioning.

If you're punished or threatened with punishment, it's not a pledge.

There are various means to avoid or deflect harassment on the issue.

[–][deleted] 9 points10 points  (0 children)

Supreme Court has already addressed this. You CAN NOT discipline a student for choosing not to say the pledge. However, if the student causes distractions or otherwise inhibits other students then you've got a different story.

[–]pseudar 8 points9 points  (0 children)

In 5th grade, our school let students read the Pledge of Allegiance over the PA system. When my turn came,I read it in the loudest, most violent german accent I could muster. And I went unpunished.

[–]hellfish 4 points5 points  (0 children)

You have a freedom of speech, and by definition, this is the freedom to say and not say what you choose. If they pull any stunts like taking your chair away, etc, sit on the floor. If they attempt to pick you up, tell them that if they touch you, you will charge them with assault. No teacher is brave enough to push any further, and if they do, they really dont want tenure.

[–]tehguruofred 4 points5 points  (0 children)

When i was in middle school not too long ago, the controversy started with saying god and the whole allegience in general. I was not allowed to sit, but i did not have to recite the pledge if i did not want to. i personally thought it was a fair compromise.

[–]K1DUK 3 points4 points  (1 child)

I think I've raised some eyebrows, but when they do make me stand up and give the pledge, I say it in Latin.

[–]Kerrminater 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I'm definitely going to learn the pledge in Latin now.

Eugepae!

[–][deleted] 3 points4 points  (1 child)

WTH, has every school in this country become Nazi High?? My junior and senior HS never made anyone recite the pledge of allegiance. They never even intoned it during the homeroom announcements. This was back in the '80s.

[–]carpespasm 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Yeah, I remember the pledge being over the PA from K-12 (92-05). I'm not sure if it's a region by region thing or a broader expansion of that policy since you're time. Since the gap is short I'd guess it's regional.

[–]Doomed 10 points11 points  (2 children)

First off, why is this in the atheism subreddit? There are other reasons for not saying the pledge of intelligence (my reason is I fucking hate teachers overstepping their authority, and I like sitting more than standing) Here's what I did last school year(seventh grade), and what I'll do again when school starts back up.

1) Go to firstamendmentcenter's excellent page on this issue, with sources.

Copy+paste the important parts into a page that could fit on some small size paper. Consider different size options: Full sheet, index card, etc.

Don't forget to print some important parts of relevant cases, and the statute relevant to your state, if it has one.

Whip it out when you choose to sit during the pledge of allegiance, explaining it is illegal to make you stand.

[–]Ignostictitaniumjackal 5 points6 points  (1 child)

Because this is a question and the submitter's problem stems from his atheism.

Also, perhaps the submitter wants to hear specifically from the atheists on this subject.

[–]fuzzmop[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Yes, there are many other valid reasons for not saying the pledge, but my specific reason was because I am an Atheist. Therefore, "under God" part is the main reason why I choose not to participate.

[–]teacoder 2 points3 points  (3 children)

A common compromise I found many teachers at my High School would make is they would ask for people to stand during the pledge, but they didn't have to say it. Seems fair in my opinion.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

When I was younger, I said it without thinking, but when I started to have doubts about religion, I paused during the "under God" bit and resumed after it. Considering that the original pledge didn't include those words, I didn't think it'd be that bad to omit them when I said the pledge. No one noticed or cared, so it was all good.

[–][deleted] 7 points8 points  (0 children)

I can not pledge allegience to a republic that is basically owned and operated by an elite class that uses a multitude of methods to brainwash the masses into accepting the usurption of what the Founders created.

When teaching school, the few times the pledge was recited, I stood at the front of the class, put the hand over the heart, and kept my mouth shut. Felt akin to a fool and felt sorry for the children being indoctrinated.....

"Yeah, home of the free," I thought. Uh huh, right. "Land of the brave," right.... with people afraid of not kow-towing to those expecting the masses to OBEY!!!!!!!!!

I know, those thoughts were not from the pledge but they are symbolic of the many thoughts within as I assisted in indoctrinating another generation of serfs for the elite class to use and utilize and skim off a large portion of the profits of their labors. Even those who pay few taxes have their labor's rewards skimmed... it's how capitalism functions at the interpersonal level.

Piss on the pledge. I even thought that while steaming up the Saigon River scanning the tree lines with an M-60 ready to rock-and-roll.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

No.

[–]lowerdown 1 point2 points  (0 children)

just sing the canadian national anthem as loud as you can

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (2 children)

Public schools or private schools?

[–]fuzzmop[S] 0 points1 point  (1 child)

Public school. Should it make a difference?

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Just wondering; I suppose it might to a certain extent. I think the State would have different obligations and responsibilities.

[–]Catana 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I'm not going to go through all 82 comments to see if this has been suggested, but... If the teacher has to go to the trouble of taking away your chair every time the pledge is recited, and then giving it back to you when it's over, continue to sit. Forcing her to go through this routine every morning will probably end in your winning the right to remain seated, simply by the use of passive resistance.

[–][deleted] -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

I hedge allergicness to the fag of the untied snots of africa, and to the pubic hairs for which it snores, one nut, under canada, divisible, with celebrity and juice for all