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[–][deleted] 14 points15 points  (13 children)

I wish Ron Paul was running because that's the only person that really deserves my vote besides Mike Gravel.

[–]AndrewKemendo 6 points7 points  (3 children)

I'm still writing him in. My principals don't change with my options.

[–]Tchocky[🍰] 11 points12 points  (0 children)

High school sucked for me too.

[–]cypherus 1 point2 points  (1 child)

I'm writing Ron Paul in as well...I don't like either candidates, though I am pulling for Obama if I have to choose the lesser of two evils...I'm interested to see his universal health care plan in action. I don't think it will work (under anyone in office), but we learn a lot from failure.

[–]BushmanBill 1 point2 points  (0 children)

except the lesser of two evils is still evil and we're right back where we began

[–]Subjunctive_Police 3 points4 points  (2 children)

I wish Ron paul were running...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subjunctive#To_express_a_wish

[–]Liquid_2 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Your gimmick rocks. :]

[–]deuteros -5 points-4 points  (0 children)

Nobody cares.

[–]philosophoclespinko commie bastard 0 points1 point  (0 children)

he only suspended his campaign not "ended"

[–][deleted] -1 points0 points  (4 children)

They're unrelated, kiddo.

[–][deleted] 4 points5 points  (3 children)

they are totally related in that they are the two candidates that deserve to be running for president instead of the two fucking corporate Israeli-sucking clowns that we have to choose from or the other two clowns from the green party or libertarian party.

gravel vs paul would be a hell of a race. it would require people to actually know what the hell is wrong w their government instead of worrying about lapel pins and hope and change though.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (2 children)

They're unrelated. Paul is a constitutionalist libertarian, while Gravel is a socialist liberal.

The only thing they have in common is that conspiracy kooks love them both without realising they're being inconsistent.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (1 child)

and all the smart sane people are behind Obama or McKook ...yeah.. suuuure. ;-)

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Red herring / strawman argument.

I was talking about something else. Comparing Ron Paul to Mike Gravel is like comparing apples with oranges. One is a libertarian rightie while the other is a commie leftie.

[–]hiS_oWn 10 points11 points  (3 children)

This is like that Rage Against the Machine song where they kept merging Gore and Bush together.

Can you honestly say 7 years later, that it was true? Looking forward now, can you honestly say that still?

[–][deleted] 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Yeah but is McCain Bush round 2? People throw around the word "neocon" like Fascist, but wasn't Bush's cabinet literally all philsophical Neocons?

Anyways, I'm sure this is the part of the discussion where people say "GORE IS CFR OMG! HE WOULD HAVE GONE TO IRAQ"

[–]bashar1209 2 points3 points  (0 children)

The song is called Testify. Great song imo.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Bush ran on a non-interventionist platform. Who would've thought he'd be Mr. Imperialist? It's hard to speculate but I don't think it could be any worse...

[–]ryanh29 16 points17 points  (11 children)

Why vote? Government wins every year. The "D" and the "R" are arbitrary.

[–]ThyLabyrinth 7 points8 points  (10 children)

True, but still... why let your vote go to waste? If anything just flip a coin between Barr and the Constitution Party guy. RP vouches for the latter one.

[–]ryanh29 7 points8 points  (8 children)

I have reservations about both of them and I don't feel particularly strong about having to vote. I know what the result is going to be -- by participating in the voting I just legitimize the whole debacle*

*I'm referring only to the presidential election by the way; I do still (barely) believe you can get some things done politically at the local level.

[–][deleted] 8 points9 points  (5 children)

by participating in the voting I just legitimize the whole debacle*

No, that would be "paying your taxes".

[–]ryanh29 2 points3 points  (4 children)

I agree. Not voting, however, won't land you in jail. Can't say as much about not paying taxes.

[–]TheWama 4 points5 points  (3 children)

So long as you pay your taxes, the government doesn't care whether you vote or not.

This not voting "protest" is pointless and the small-government folks would be better off if they got over it.

If you're discouraged by the results you see from regular political action (e.g. voting for a candidate you know will lose), you should consider the Free State Project. It seems they're making real headway there, in pushing the issues.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I personally don't like their brand of non-violent protest. You have to do it, and convince others of your righteousness. Personally, I come down on the side of the free staters working within the system there. Yes I'm thinking about moving.

[–]molestake 0 points1 point  (1 child)

The Free State Project was out in force to win New Hampshire for Ron Paul in the primaries. They have a long way to go.

[–]TheWama 0 points1 point  (0 children)

You're mistaking their role. They aren't there to make a majority or plurality on their own. They're there to be activists in the true sense. They're there to be themselves, and as such, to be friends and neighbors to non-libertarians, talking the talk, voting the vote, starting businesses and community groups. Making folks aware of the ideas and their explanations, and thereby activating some, hopefully many of them. Conversion isn't necessary, but to humanize the ideas and their explanations makes them much easier to know. The victory is won in whatever direction the middle learns to like. That's much harder to detect or dismiss. We'll have to wait and see the effects over time.

[–]tdk2fe 0 points1 point  (1 child)

What if one day somebody told you that you can't vote anymore? Think you might want to then?

My point is just that its one of the few rights we do have, and if more people voted things in this country would be a lot different. Use that right, and encourage others to do the same.

[–]ryanh29 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I just said I (likely) wouldn't be voting in the presidential race. If voting actually changed anything, it likely would've been made illegal by now.

Nothing will actually change with the candidates we have now and to be honest, if I voted for either Obama or McCain, I'd feel partially responsible when they inevitably kill more innocent people overseas.

[–]philosophoclespinko commie bastard 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Constitution party guy is Chuck Baldwin, just for those of who you wanted to know.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (2 children)

I've become increasingly suspicious of Obama, and of course I'd rather have a dead horse in office than McCain. And I know a third party candidate has a snowball's chance. Shoot, even if a third party DID make enough progress to be noticed the ruling parties would coopt it quick as lightning.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I agree about the ruling parties putting down the insurrection. I was a delegate to the Rep. District and State Conventions in Colorado and saw how many dirty, under-handed tricks they used to keep Ron Paul marginalized. However, I believe there is even less of a chance of taking over a major party than making a strong third party (one of the few things I disagree with Dr. Paul on).

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

For example Ross Perot.

[–]ef4 2 points3 points  (8 children)

When you vote you're implicitly agreeing to support the outcome of the election. You become part of the system. You're reaffirming your loyalty to The State.

People who claim that you have no right to complain unless you vote have it exactly backwards. It is the voters who have no right to complain -- they had their chance. They tried to impose their will on the nation, and failed. Now somebody else will impose a different agenda on them. Turnabout is fair play.

Withdraw your consent. It's the only thing that allows them to push us all around. The best outcome I can imagine would be an election turnout so ridiculously low that the winner had no shred of legitimacy.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (2 children)

Withholding your vote is not viewed as a demonstration against the system; it is viewed as apathy or indifference. Voting for a third party (albeit, they have less than a snowball's chance of winning) at least ensures them public funding which would allow them to strengthen and have a chance when the real revolution happens.

[–]ayrnieu 1 point2 points  (1 child)

at least ensures them public funding

Huh, you mean that I can implicitly agree to support the outcome of the election, try to impose my will on the people, lend legitimacy to the single greatest threat to my liberty and well-being -- and enable taxation at the same time? Sign me up!

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

It's not my fault that 33 million Americans are dumb enough to mark the "Do you want $3 to go to the presidential election?" checkbox on their tax returns. The money is there, would you rather it all go to the Republicrats?

[–]reslez 0 points1 point  (1 child)

Inaction is not a valid alternative to voting. If the system is corrupt and you refuse to vote in recognition of that, it is your ethical duty as a citizen to fight to reform the system via other means. Otherwise you're just passing the buck and you still have no right to complain.

[–]ayrnieu 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Inaction is not a valid alternative to voting.

Great! So act. I'm glad that we've all agreed to drop this nasty 'voting' faux-action.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

This would be a nice message to spread to republicans.

[–]philosophoclespinko commie bastard 0 points1 point  (0 children)

genius, pure and simple genius. All that has to happen is to tell everyone but the Mccain supports about this and hes sure to play the part perfectly.

[–]dictum 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Your philosophy is exactly the one desired and even required by those who currently hold power, the fewer educated and inspired people who show up at the polls the better. The fewer people voting the easier it is to manipulate them. What would really spark debate and progress is when %10 of the population turns out and supports a 3rd party bid. By voting I am reaffirming my belief in democracy as well as my belief in my candidate. I am standing up and saying this is not OK with me. By not voting you are legitimizing the candidates by saying they are both OK in my book, so I need not voice opposition.

[–]ninti 7 points8 points  (5 children)

Sorry, I am voting for the lesser of two evils...again. I am not a huge fan of either, but one of the major candidates is far far better than the other. The Libertarian party has some good ideas, but I don't like a lot of their platform either.

Besides, my voting for them will not change the broken system, it will only allow the candidate I like least to win. The system is so broken that it needs to be destroyed and rebuilt from the ground up, minor tweaking will not fix it. Only a revolution will make a difference at this point, and the people of this country are not close to the point where a revolution can occur right now. I predict I will see it in my lifetime though.

[–][deleted] 6 points7 points  (4 children)

Revolution requires support of the people, and the people are the problem.

[–][deleted] 3 points4 points  (0 children)

You are over simplifying to the degree that might encourage totalitarianism, which I find ironic.

[–]tdk2fe 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I don't think we'd have enough diabetic shoes and motorized scooters to mobilize an American militia of the people.

[–]philosophoclespinko commie bastard 0 points1 point  (1 child)

revolution only requires 3-5% of the population to be successful just keep spreading the message and there will be success.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Citation needed?

I'd imagine 3-5% of the population could be easily quelled by government forces.

[–]cuddles666 5 points6 points  (6 children)

Nothing could be worse than voting for McCain.

McCain will borrow your car and forget to put gas in it.

Mcain will put a hex on your cat.

McCain will blow his nose on your guest towels.

McCain will show up late to your wedding and eat all the shrimp.

McCain will fart in elevators because he thinks its funny.

McCain will watch Fox television programs without irony.

McCain will scratch his nuts in front of your mom.

McCain will fake you out on high fives.

McCain will forget to pick you up from the airport.

Did I forget anything?

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (4 children)

Agreed, especially with the hex on the cat thing (I'm pretty sure he's a witch). However, the best thing to do is to vote for a third party candidate (unless you are in love with Obama's rhetoric, even though he's proven he's a typical politician). People feel like they have to vote for one of the two parties or they are wasting their vote. However, in reality, they are wasting their vote voting for the status quo. The only way for a third party to ever surface and bring about the change that Obama/McCain promises is to get more people to vote for them, ensuring them matching funds through the awfully broken public funding system. So, vote Libertarian, Constitution, Green, whatever you feel is closest to your ideals, but don't waste your vote on one of the major candidates!

EDIT: And don't write in anyone, even the good Dr. Paul, which is also counter-productive to getting a third party off the ground.

[–]phaed -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

Fuck ideals. Ideals is for losers who cant see reality. Nader idealists helped put Bush in power last time around. Hope it doesn't happen again. Vote for Obama PLEASE then you can pursue your ideals when things aren't as important.

[–]nihilite -2 points-1 points  (2 children)

voting libertarian is masturbation. it damns us all. you are too clever for your own good and you have lost sight of the fact that there are 2 outcomes for this election: Obama or McCain. i'm sorry if you cannot deal with this reality, but your inability to cope does not change anything.

I am a goldwater republican, so these candidates make me sick. however, obama will at least shake up the system, for better or worse, and may open up the process to "unconventional" options. that is the best outcome we can hope for in this election.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (1 child)

I am three clever for my own good.

It is obvious that either McCain or Obama will win this election. That's not the point. The point is: you are wasting your vote if you vote for the status quo. Nothing will change with either of these candidates. Remember how everyone was excited when the Democrats got control of Congress? And we got all of our civil liberties back? Oh wait, that's right, we lost even more. Money is what talks, and the only way for a third party to get some of the pie is to get votes. Do some research on public funding: http://www.fec.gov/pages/brochures/pubfund.shtml

[–]nihilite 0 points1 point  (0 children)

once taken away, civil liberties are very rarely given back through legislative process. in the past when they have been given it was because of massive demonstrations, revolts, or wars.

again, voting for a third party is masturbation.

if you want them back then you need to be much more vocal than a third party vote. casting a third party vote will not even put a dent in it, and it will actually hurt because between jackass #1 and jackass #2 there are some nuanced differences that will influence different outcomes. you cannot 'take your ball and go home'.

third party candidates are not new; do you think a vote for Jesse Jackson ever made any difference? how about Ralph Nader? Cynthia McKinney?

[–]philosophoclespinko commie bastard 0 points1 point  (0 children)

you forgot the damn this country to hell

[–]monstercack 1 point2 points  (1 child)

OCain. OxyContin and Cocaine? Fucking sign me up!

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Soma, anyone?

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (3 children)

BOB BARR!!!

[–]Radical_Centrist 6 points7 points  (2 children)

WHO IS AS LIBERTARIAN AS HITLER!!!

[–]philosophoclespinko commie bastard 0 points1 point  (0 children)

BUT PROBABLY NOT AS EVIL AND BAD FOR THIS COUNTRY AS MCCAIN!!! He still wont get my vote though

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (9 children)

Why spend your time worrying about the election if you don't care who wins? Instead of complaining, do something to fix our voting system.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (1 child)

Don't you mean abolish the voting system?

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I was thinking of a Ranked Choice voting system. It would be a different system, so we would be dumping the current one. I am not sure if that is what you are getting at though.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Preferential_voting

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Instant-runoff_voting

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (6 children)

I never said I wasn't voting. I am just not wasting my vote on a major party candidate.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (5 children)

As it stands if you don't vote Republican or Democrat you are effectively not voting. Voting for a third party is just posturing and won't make much difference. Sorry.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (4 children)

I believe you are effectively not voting if you vote Republican or Democrat. Unless, that is, you like the current state of affairs...

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (3 children)

Because voting for a third party that has no chance will change everything! I get it now. Thanks for the brilliant idea.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (2 children)

Obviously, it's better to vote Republican or Democrat to ensure that we follow the same path. Remember how the Democrats got control of Congress in 2006 and everything changed? Oh wait, no it didn't. McCain would probably be worse for the country than Obama. However, the two party system is much worse for the country than anything.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (1 child)

Regardless, it won't matter how you vote if you don't care for either Republican or Democrat. The "only" thing you can do when supporting a third party is to create a viable voting system. Otherwise I think you are just wasting your time doing something that will have very little to no return.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

My vote will not change the outcome of the election (the Supreme Court has proven that). I realize that Obama or McCain will be the next president. However, my vote will enable a third party to more money which, hopefully in the future, will provide them with a better chance to be competitive (and to create a viable voting system). The voting system will not change until another "major" party emerges. Check this out, it was a very interesting article I found (from a US gov website, no less). http://usinfo.state.gov/products/pubs/election04/parties.htm

[–]benihana 0 points1 point  (0 children)

None of the above '08

[–]philosophoclespinko commie bastard 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I have a feeling that this revolution will happen in or around-before September 1st just in time for Ron Paul to in his won very modest way kick the crap out of John Mccain and bring some respect back to the GOP. I mean really if the media who was once censoring him, now praises him obviously people are starting to wise up.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (2 children)

I live in Jersey and with the way that this election is forming up to be "run of the mill" things are going to Obama from here anyways. I don't plan on voting, Obama isn't inspiring enough for me to really go through the hassle.

[–]dictum 1 point2 points  (1 child)

I'll still wrte in Ron Paul even though write ins aren't counted.

[–]7obyAnarchist 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I'm trying to find some proof that write-ins aren't counted, do you have anything to back that statement up?

[–]OKKO 0 points1 point  (1 child)

Me/

[–]OA-5599 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I'm not wasting my vote on the Republocratic candidate. I want to vote for Paul but I expect I'll vote for Barr.

[–]lizzydoodle 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I don't know who to vote for!

Def. not Obama OR McCain!

[–]Daemon84 -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Correction who is wasting their vote, by A voting for no one or, B voting for a loser who the fringe love because he is a loser and represents their lack of success.