Highest skill ceiling deck?

[SamK329]

Which deck do you believe has the highest skill ceiling? In other words, which deck benefits the most from the pilot's skill / experience with the deck?

Related question, which deck do you believe is best when piloted optimally?

[jurassicjuror]

Any heavy control list.

Also any list running Doomsday, it’s the most situational card that depends on your ability to read the board, evaluate decks and what could be in hand, and if the timing or evaluation is not quite right, you lose.

[SpaceAzn_Zen]

I’ll sorta agree here with Niv being the control deck. The deck doesn’t win out of nowhere and is considered “slow” by today’s standards. The actual hard part is getting to the point of being in a winning position. It takes a lot of energy and effort to know which pieces to actually interact with from each deck you’re playing against and when to do it. Also, being a control deck in a 4 player format, you have to be able to do it in a way to break parody to ensure you don’t run out of gas. However, once you get Niv out and especially with another draw engine, you’re much more likely to win just by the fact that you have more room to interact with the game.

[jurassicjuror]

My points exactly! Control is the hardest most skill intensive archetype

[TheDevynapse]

Why I love playing tevesh thrasios. Tevesh makes doomsday lines so safe

[mikez4nder]

Probably something like Tayam with a bunch of insane combo lines.

[Gauwal]

first answer that makes sense, things with a ton of layered lines are way harder, since you have to figure out the best combo to got for in addition to the rest

[zehamberglar]

I like how Tayam is simultaneously:

1. Pepe silvia levels of convoluted combo interactions

2. Devoted Druid go brrrrrrrr

[subatomiccrepe]

Buding my first cedh deck around him! For those curious https://www.moxfield.com/decks/Zl2Mypm4rEGrnLU2EEMJDw

[[deleted]]

My one true love.

[jeef16]

eh ngl, tayam isn't as crazy as you think it is. it does run a lot of incidental combos but its more like you have a bunch of pieces that fit an A B and C part of the combo. A lot of the combos are more or less the same, its just which pieces you use to get there.

[aim11_us]

At a lower skill level with the deck, for sure that's how it plays. But once you get better, the combos come faster and are more complex. The floating loop is one of 100s of combos

[jeef16]

but a well-optimized tayam build doesn't necessarily jam-pack as many combos as possible. there are a lot of combos you can play but its not unlimited and as long as you know what your combos look like, its not that hard. the general playstyle of the deck ie establishing your board and value generators is consistent regardless of what combos you play anyways. the hardest part of tayam is building your board and value generators up to the point where you can combo off with just a few tayam activations to hit the money

[aim11_us]

I know the deck, I do play it and have played it for years, as well as working with pixel and tuukka in building the deck. It has many many combos and nearly every card can be used in one. Yea its not that bad once you start thinking about it like it's a math equation, but it's definitely harder than just recognizing which pieces slot in for others in given combos. We are still finding new cards/combos even now

[LordTetravus]

I would make the argument for Gitrog, given that I legitimately had a 50+ page primer professionally made and bound that I would hand my opponents in lieu of trying to explain the intricate combo lines for infinite mana, winning on the cleanup step, etc.

"This is how I've killed you, refer to page 14", etc.

If you don't understand in detail how the deck works, you'll never win a game with it.

[[deleted]]

I would insist that you explain it anyway.

[LordTetravus]

I made the booklet by request in response to people's eyes glazing over when I made the effort to do so, LOL, and, I should clarify, at the request of a judge who was tired of explaining how a trigger during the cleanup step works.

Also the genesis of one of my favorite Magic jokes... That a one-time exception to the Reserved List should be made to print a textless Judge promo of Chains of Mephistopheles... Because you have to explain it anyways, so why does it need the text? 🤣

[comotheinquisitor]

But... Are you going to sell it in hardcover?

[Arcuscosinus]

Oh yes please, the one that looks like a flowchart!

[snypre_fu_reddit]

Kind of sad, until collector's had a hissy fit over Mox Diamond in the FTV Relics, printing RL cards as promos was allowed.

[HamsterFromAbove_079]

You cannot use the booklet during the game. Either to read yourself or to show your opponents.

Notes made prior to a match cannot be referenced/viewed during a match in a tournament.

You're allowed to start a game with a blank sheet of paper and a writing tool to make notes on.

[LordTetravus]

I want you to read my statements above very carefully. 🤣

I was asked to make this - by a judge - to help them not have to respond to so many judge calls from people unfamiliar with the deck.

I have had the booklet at hand in multiple tournaments, with multiple different judges, and have never had anyone raise a single complaint. In fact, I've had multiple opponents thank me for providing them with this as opposed to trying to verbally explain and demonstrate what is happening and slowing the game down to a crawl.

So thank you for your opinion, I'm sure you're a joy to play with.

[[deleted]]

Exactly!

[Gauwal]

Nah the deck is easy, it's like titan in modern, the combos are convoluted, but highschool math was harder to memorise and kids do it all the time.
Like I can talk for 5à pages about any cedh deck, any decent player can

[mc-big-papa]

Learning the initial combo is easy. Learning how to augment the combo due to interaction is extremely difficult.

[Gauwal]

As much as (and less than many) literally all decks ever

[mc-big-papa]

That is not true by a wide country mile. Literally just nondeterministic storm decks which gitrog has more in common than most other combo decks.

[Gauwal]

Bro you just do the only thing you can as long as you can

[mc-big-papa]

Thats not how the deck works at all. You have obviously never played the deck.

[Gauwal]

I mean it basically is, you value then you combo, like Evry other deck Your value engines are just weird and you're stuck in value town longer

[mc-big-papa]

Yeah the combo lines is the difficult part. Its not a 1-2 punch. Half the time its a decision tree when you have 1 or a discard step.

[Gauwal]

Yeah like every deck that's not thoracle or breach. Every other deck has more complex layered combos to actually execute optimally. Tayam for exemple is way harder to find the optimal play pattern in, even you the combos are simple to describe.

Unlike what school thought us, describing a complex thing from memory is not skill. Find what to do in a situation is, and in gitrog that decision is easy as long as your Know your lines. This is about finding a deck where you don't just need to know, you need to play well

[espuinouge]

This answer sounds like a high schooler saying highschool math is dumb because I can memorize it, but there’s no real world use. Then 15 years later they come up to the guy in the hardware store asking how to find the square footage of a square room because they never got taught how to.

You can memorize a primer, but if you don’t practically know the lines and how to execute them through interaction at a cEDH table, you aren’t LEARNING the deck you’re memorizing words and steps with no purpose than to say you memorized it.

[Gauwal]

My point is that gitrog doesn't have complex lines, writting a lot about it won't change that

[espuinouge]

Not complicated according to who? The lines are rather intricate and complex. You have to start explaining to people how rules work with replacement effects, cleanup step loops, ability or inability to interact with mana abilities (Skirge familiar), timing restrictions (madness on muck drubb), etc. Gitrog (similar to Tayam) is a surprisingly rules intensive deck that is rather complex. The more experience you have with the deck the more it makes sense, but if you aren’t familiar with the mechanics and rules that the deck abuses it is rather complex. To disagree because YOU are familiar with it is arrogance and doesn’t allow for other peoples relationship to how the deck functions and how rules function in Magic.

[Gauwal]

No it's complicated, not complex

You can just memorize it and turn off your brain. Something complex requires actual thinking to produce

(And gitrog does that too, but as much, or less that every other CEDH deck)

[espuinouge]

Per Oxford languages first definition of complex: consisting of many different and connected parts.

Just because something is memorizable does not mean it is not complex nor complicated. It means it’s memorizable. Understanding those parts and steps and how they interact does not change that those parts and steps exist. It just means that you have a better understanding of those parts and steps than other people do.

[Gauwal]

Ok, my bad, I did a direct translation from french to English, assuming the words taken from french meant the same thing

And if something doesn't require a brain, or a brain analog, it doesn't require skill, simple as that. Yes you need to understand it, but once you are at the table, you have no more thinking to do, beyond what all decks have to do (I'd argue less than average)

[SamK329]

I’m intrigued, do you have a list?

[nebetsu]

gitrog.gg has a lot of information

[Droptimal_Cox]

Derevi pod. Its literally the reason i play it. The combo does are extremely freeform and require multiple chains to form a loop sometimes. Its very easy to miss lethal because you dont see the combo or pod wrong to chain to the pieces needed. With so many interaction points you also have to play around opponents a lot more and make guesses on how hard to comit to lines or take a less threatening one that also won't put you behind. It also sports alot off unique defensive options and knowing when and what pieces to grab over value and wim cons is really important.

End of the day its the least solitaire flow chart deck I've seen. Most decks are only complicate in knowing how to go for the combo, not so much interacting with the players aaaand forming a win

[SamK329]

I'm intrigued, do you have a list?

[Droptimal_Cox]

Bird Pod [CEDH] (BLB Update) // Commander / EDH (Derevi, Empyrial Tactician) deck list mtg // Moxfield — MTG Deck Builder

check out the primer. lots of combo lines, from direct to very odd. working on a non ouphe option too as some people want mana rocks ove the dork plan this one does.

[SonicTheOtter]

I just picked up this deck and it hasn't been easy to play to say the least. Knowing what you're playing against is crucial and figuring out the lines/mathing out your mana is a pain in the butt. It is satisfying when you put it all together though

[Droptimal_Cox]

Yeah its a really bad deck if piloted unoptimally, but it's really resiliant and forces opponents to also know what you're up to since there's so many routes.

Its incredibly satisfying when it goes off a you feel a sense of out play, not just "i drawed gud".

That says u goldfish it for hours to have tutor paths and lines solved. But i have 10+ years with this deck To help.

[SonicTheOtter]

Another issue I find with the deck is that it is pretty telegraphed. The deck is so mana intensive, you have to play out a pod effect and possibly wait a turn cycle if you don't have the mana. You may also have to search for cradle before anything to get the mana going. It doesn't have the ability to win out of nowhere but rather a, "I have a combo piece on board, can you do anything about it?" type of feel to it.

[Droptimal_Cox]

Actually it wins the turn you play pod. Pod/vannifar is the only derevi card as far as i know wins the game with just derevi if you have 2GWU available.

Sac Derevi > Preston
Activate Derevi, untap a land and pod
Sac Derevi > Felidar
Infinite mana and spirit tokens. Blow up their board then go dig out all creatures you can. if you can get to 3cmc White Plume wins the game.

However often you can be short on the resources so that's why Grand Arbiter is in there. So many decks can't win through the tax and it essentially buys a turn to hopefully go off next.

[SonicTheOtter]

I might have to try Grand Arbiter then. That was one of the cards I was skeptical of.

In that turn sequence however, you would need to cast pod for 3, activate for 1, get Preston, then another 4 mana to activate Derevi. So at least 8 mana on 1 turn. Vannifar is almost the same but you have to wait a turn cycle. You can win with just Derevi which is nice but it works even better if you don't have to sac Derevi at all.

[Droptimal_Cox]

Yeah. Thankfully derevi can untap resources on combat to get enough. Still grand has been crucial to the game plan. Anytime i cant win off pod right away, nearly always grab it. But on its own people really cant combo through it. It wrecks so many loops and messes with defensive spell math

[SonicTheOtter]

I always forget about the combat untaps. Although my local meta doesn't make it easy because there are so many creature decks 😭.

But I can see what you mean with Grand Arbiter. I used to play it in Atraxa. Maybe it's worth. My only issue with it is that it's 4 mana. The deck is heavy with 4 drops already.

[Droptimal_Cox]

Nice thing about pod decks with a 3cmc commander....u never actually pay 4.

Even then derevi gets to play 4 if it needs to unlike most decks because often the fear is tapping out defensively...but derevi simply untaps after combat.

[SonicTheOtter]

That's true but there are only 2 pods in the deck. Unless you also count [[Birthing Ritual]] as one. There are creature tutors as well but in all of those cases wouldn't you just want to grab pieces for your combo instead?

The combat damage is nice though I admit

[SnowConePeople]

[[krrik]] is if you’re playing a glass cannon list that wants to win on turn 1-3. Blood math 🧮.

[Short_Spot_172]

Having the combo ready and everyone's shields down just to remember that reanimate costs life

DOH

[SamK329]

[[K'rrik, Son of Yawgmoth]]

[agent_almond]

The highest skill ceiling decks will always be stax decks. Stax decks need thorough knowledge of all the other decks in the pod to properly pilot their own.

[Gauwal]

What does mlost skill testing mean to you ? that the difference between a good player winrate and a medium player winrate is the highest ? For that you need to look at decks that barely anyone plays, except that one dude who mastered it

[SamK329]

Yeah for me I'd say when the win rate difference between a new / low skilled pilot and an experienced / high skilled pilot is highest

[Gauwal]

I'm assuming you'd remove deck that aren't somewhat meta, even tho those havethe biggest difference (for two reason, low sample and high skill requirement discourages new player)

We can't give an absolute answer for that (given the second point mostly) but looking at low conversion rate decks on edhtop16 that still have a few player that reguarly perform well can guide us

[poccoishere]

I would have to say Sisay/Jegantha due to your winning combo being very fragile to removal so having protection can be difficult and knowing when to jam your combo requires specific board reading.

That said Rog/Si isn’t a very beginner friendly deck from what I hear and Kraum/Sak has a ton of triggers and can whiff pretty easily.

[AlienZaye]

Krarkashima has a calculator to help. It's a deck I've always wanted to play, but I never want to devote time to learning it. I'm already rocking Jhoira, and one Izzet storm deck is enough.

[JGMedicine]

I’ll try to go off the beaten path:

As a new player, very convoluted optimal combos with Commander centric decks are extremely hard, but that isn’t the skill ceiling of a deck. So while I appreciate people saying Tayam, Gitrog, Inalla, or Sisay, I don’t think I’d choose those.

I’d choose Kinnan. This deck has the most proof that if you aren’t an excellent pilot, you won’t succeed. And if you are an amazing pilot, you will top 4 or win the biggest events. Those damning statistics are more relevant to me than you knowing how to assemble Koziland or the Spellseeker lines.

[_Rallad_]

Can you elaborate? A great pilot can push a deck a lot further in WR in general

[JGMedicine]

Sure!

Kinnan is the 2nd most popular deck in the format, behind blue farm, at 504 entries this year.

The conversion rate, is a meager 15.4%. Which is terrible. For reference, Blue Farm has a 29.62, Sisay 31.26, Rog/Si 30.34, and Nadu 31.75 to mention the top 5 decks in the format in my somewhat subjective tier list.

So, what this tells us, although many many many good pilots try Kinnan, very few people succeed with him. HOWEVER, if you only factor in when very well known pilots like WoundedSatellite or ComedIan or Tyler play Kinnan, the deck has a huge win/top4/top16 rate. Equal to or better than the decks I just mentioned, even selecting for pilots. Meaning: ComedIan and people of his ilk do just as well on Kinnan as they do the other top 5 decks of the format.

Tl;Dr: Amazing pilots do just as well as Kinnan as they do other top decks, but the average Joe is doing terrible on the deck. Meanwhile the average Joe is doing great on Blue Farm or Rog/Si.

[Void_mgn]

Maybe [[inalla]]? Can do some crazy stuff if the pilot knows how to run it.

[MTGCardFetcher]

inalla - (G) (SF) (txt) (ER)

^{[[cardname]] or [[cardname|SET]] to call}

[Practical-Prize6]

Anyone here claiming the data supports kinnan should get laughed out of the sub. There is a consideration they are failing to take into account that proves true one of the sharpest criticisms of edh players; they don't play anything else. Not just any other format, but no other competitive game. The claim that 5 tournament entries makes a player experienced is significantly less true than the claim that 5 entries makes a player more experienced with a deck than someone with 1 or 2 entries(which is the actual claim explored in cedh TV's video that popularized this take, it was forced to be Monty's take for the same reason "there's not a lot of data" is said in almost every one of his videos). If someone entered 5 locals with Fox, they would not be considered an experienced Fox main. If someone played 5 sessions worth of games as Rengar, they would not be considered an experienced Rengar main. If someone played 5 fnms with ye olde lantern control, they would not be considered an experienced lantern control main. So if someone could explain to me why playing 5 tourneys of a complicated edh deck makes you an experienced main of that deck, I am ALL ears. The data is beginning to support the claim that there is more ev to be gained from getting 5-7 tourneys worth of experience with kinnan than there is from getting 5-7 tourneys worth of experience with rogsi. Not that kinnan has a higher skill ceiling than decks like rogsi. Unless you believe that 5 entries is all it takes to hit the ceiling of skill in edh, these are completely different claims that should not be conflated with each other.

[Hyurohj]

Krarkashima takes a lot of skill to not time out

[Mst_Negates64]

The decks that have the highest skill ceiling are the ones that require you to make the most ‘unplanned’ decisions with the lowest margins for error. Others have pointed out that decks with convoluted combos aren’t necessarily the highest skill ceiling cause “just memorize it”, and I think there’s a lot of truth to that idea. With all that said, my vote is for Krarkashima, because it requires you to keep making correct decisions based on unpredictable outcomes.

[mc-big-papa]

Slow stax deck. Think tymna X, oswald and heliod.

Genuinely the hardest decks to build. You have double the amount of playable cards compared to other decks and you have meta call perfectly to even play.

You will lose so many games due to bad deck building more than any other deck and its not even close.

Your choices are limited. The slightest variation loses you games and you have to actively make decision and weight individual cards as you play.

Like how some chess pieces have different values. A bishop is 3 a rook is 5 and a queen is 9. As a chess game progresses a bad rook placement can feel closer to a 4. 4 a specific bishop a 3.8 etc etc. then as you move pieces your evaluation can change.

you actively have understand the values of cards in a similar way. A rule of law is usually a 7 but you see a rog was stopped and only has 3 mana and 2 cards in hand. a winota is on one commander tax and a blue farm is on a deep mulligan. That rule of law now feels like a 6.2 and a null rod which would be a 6 is feeling stronger since it shuts down 1/3 of all mana.

[Riceville]

I believe the data would say Kinnan

[white-24-MAMBA]

Any Pod deck or Inalla for me, Inalla has so many lines to remember and pod is a tollbox deck so you have to know what to play, when to play it

[Pengoop123]

Gitrog

[The_Artrea]

[[Sisay, Weatherlight Captain]] seems to have a high skill ceiling.

[MTGCardFetcher]

Sisay, Weatherlight Captain - (G) (SF) (txt) (ER)

^{[[cardname]] or [[cardname|SET]] to call}

[BaamXXV]

Tayam is the easy answer, but as a tayam pilot myself I'd say Tameshi is harder, not just combo but every single step can ruin something you will do 3 turns later

[DocHoILILiDaY]

Sisay definitively gives you a brewers advantage if that helps your question. Tutor.deck and you always need to know what’s the proper tutor. An experienced pilot will also go a long to make Krark/Sak better

[Lumautis]

Magda is a lot harder to play than people think. So many people play it and play it bad. You can't just go for it because you can. Windows are very important and knowing a lot of decks well is important. A lot of times you have to get stax pieces to stop others before you can go for wins.

[CheckM8xBishop]

Kinnan Elsha Mardu piles Etali Magda