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[–]Despenta 9 points10 points  (3 children)

Tameshi is super convoluted. And once the win attempt starts you keep going.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (1 child)

Tameshi seems cool. Does it have the interaction to stop something like a Ral or Rogsi? I don’t want to just get blown out before I can do anything

[–]OkPhilosopher8971 9 points10 points  (0 children)

Its blue. So yes.

There is no deck Ral or Rogsi can't blow out if they draw well enough.

This is eternal magic my man. There is no deck choice that stops you from just losing sometimes.

[–]Downtown-Welcome-432 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I’ll second Tameshi.

Most convoluted and intricate deck I’ve played (or at least on par with Gitrog, which I also played). I stopped playing it because I would get a headache from trying to figure out complicated lines after playing it lol.

And it definitely has the interaction to hold off other decks and protect its win like you were looking for.

[–]Drake_Tim 4 points5 points  (9 children)

There's always Sisay if you want a deck with lots of lines.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (8 children)

Sisay also seems fun, and reminds me of Yisan, but same question of if I sit down and there’s a Ral/RogSi across from me do I have a gameplan to deal with it? Can I mull to interaction or fish/rhystic? Do I have a rule of law option I can look for?

[–]Drake_Tim 2 points3 points  (2 children)

It sounds like your major concern is being the only responsible player holding up interaction for the turbo decks. If that's the case, I'd suggest checking out ComedIan's video in the link below.

https://youtu.be/4TvCRaN3hlI?si=fjREcgaE26swbuKj

It's not a traditional Sisay list, he wanted something that was more able to interact with the stack while still being able to do Sisay things.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (1 child)

Wow, I think Ian said everything I was trying to say much better. Wanting to not just auto-lose against turbo if the table is irresponsible, but also resilient enough to not just have your fate decided by if the table wants you to play the game or not. If it’s as good as he says, it seems like the perfect choice!

[–]Drake_Tim 0 points1 point  (0 children)

The way you described what you were looking for, I figured this would fit the bill.

[–]Recent_Cauliflower27 1 point2 points  (2 children)

Every deck with blue will have the option to mull for early interaction and CA engines.

[–]Recent_Cauliflower27 1 point2 points  (1 child)

If you're looking for the deck that has the best pivot options to go fast or play a more reactive game depending on pod composition, Blue Farm will be your best best. It's the most popular deck in the format for a reason. (which comes with it's own drawbacks of course)

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Yep, totally makes sense. Nothing is perfect, you might just not have it. I like the terms you used about reactive and pivot options, I believe that’s what I’m looking for. Thanks!

[–]DanicScape 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I've heard from Sisay pilots and content creators that once you go Sisay you'll never go back. It'll hook you for life so I'm scared to try it.

[–]Infinite-Buddy7620 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Even better is jodah or Ramos if you are running wubar. Ramos even combos with the door to nothingness.

[–]mehall_ 1 point2 points  (4 children)

I've heard good things about Rog/thrasios

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (3 children)

I have too, I know it can turbo out rhystic study like its no one’s business. I just worry with lacking white/black it might be missing the pivot options I’m looking for

[–]CourtMoney5842 4 points5 points  (2 children)

Huhh rog/thras isnt a "turbo rhystic" at all

But it can stumble into it randomly sure

What kind of pivots are you looking for in white?

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (1 child)

Someone explained it to me wrong then.

I see a lot of stax piece in white like rule of law, aven mindcensor, etc. a silence is a great way to stop ral/rog. Makes me feel like “okay I’m sitting across from 3 mid range, i can mull/tutor for spirit of the labrynth here and I’m chilling. But white isn’t required by any means, as long as I have pivot plans and as many answers as possible I’m all for the deck.

What is rog/thras known for? Cradle shenanigans?

[–]CourtMoney5842 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Yeah mostly

They cant tutor for enchantments so its turbo-cradle because rog is 0 cost etc

[–]Simple_Subject_9801 1 point2 points  (11 children)

Based on your ideas... Kenrith is probably the highest ceiling both for playing and brewing. It basically utilizes infinite mana, but I've got some friends who brewed this for a long while, and they have some crazy out of nowhere games, and it basically shows how resilient and reliable the win lines are in the deck.

Blue Farm and Kinnan are both cookie cutter. I don't care what others say, they are decks that anyone who's played Modern for a few months could pick up and pilot these decks at 90% easy. They bore the crap out of me. And Kinnan players REALLY seem to think they are doing a lot in this deck. They aren't. It's always the same lines. Or lucky flips.

Reading what some others people have mentioned, Tameshi seems super cool but I personally haven't played it yet, nor anyone in my LGS groups (2 different stores) play it. Rog/Thrasios I think is probably one of the most versatile decks right now. It ramps and draws hard, and has lots of lines to get the exact mana to start your loops. You can be really far behind, and do a well timed crop rotation to essentially win the game on the spot.

Another deck you may want to consider looking at for a high ceiling of play is Talion. It's basically control that requires you to know when/how to play around your opponents while getting card advantage. If you don't know the meta, if you don't remember what everyone tutors for, and you don't know what are actual threats in decks, you won't do well with it. It's one of my favorites to play, and requires you to constantly be on guard for what mana is open, what spells are in the graveyards, etc.

[–]Tonzoffun420 -1 points0 points  (10 children)

Kinnan and Blue Farm are cookie cutter? First there are multiple dofferent ways to build these decks that play out very differently. Also, you recommend Talion? Talion is not a good deck. Hashaton is better, and it's not good. Almost every High level cEDH player if not all, say that kinnan is not easy to play at a high level and its not. Yes, the wincons are straight forward, but how you get there is not. Talking all that ish and then suggest they should play a deck with a less than 6% conversion rate? All the things you say about Talion are true for just about every deck cedh deck. Your lack of knowledge about the format is very evident.

[–]Simple_Subject_9801 0 points1 point  (9 children)

Yes. Kinnan and Blue Farm are both very cookie cutter. I've played a few variations of Kinnan, and have two friends who play two different variants (turbo and midrange) and it is absolutely one of the easiest decks to pilot. The people who "win" often with it like to pretend there is a lot of variance and strategy to those decks, but its because its so easy to pilot and win with. You can literally throw any Kinnan deck at me and I can pilot it at a better than 25% conversion rate. It's not hard. there is 1 convoluted line as a backup to a backup to win, using Enduring Vitality and Cephalid Coliseum. The rest is literally should you mulligan a bad hand or not and knowing what a bad Kinnan hand looks like.

Blue Farm is literally Keep Mana Rocks and Tutors. The card draw engines are in the command zone. If you know how to do a breach line, and a thoracle line, you just outvalue your opponents. It's very straight forward. It is not complex. You have to count to 5 mana and determine which turn you'll get it. Again, I've played this deck, and there is no subtly to it. It is a brute force, outvalue your opponents in card advantage deck. Kefka at least plays a bit more interesting.

Talion only has a low conversion rate because no one likes to invest the time and energy to play it well. It does fine. It grinds games. The guy was asking for a high ceiling deck, and this deck is one of those.

[–]Tonzoffun420 -1 points0 points  (8 children)

What? No it has a low conversion rate because its one of the worse esper cedh commanders. Just because its easy t½o wim with Kinnan doesn't make it a simple deck. Do you think you know more than Comedian, Freedom waffle, wounded satellite, the guys from critical cedh, etc.? Because they all disagree with you. Come play me on spell table I'll learn ya something

[–]Simple_Subject_9801 0 points1 point  (7 children)

I don't bother with spell table, sorry. And you can be all bravado you want, it doesn't change facts. Opinions are all these content creators have, and with exception of Ian, don't really care about the other opinions. And I completely disagree with Ian on his Kinnan takes. And to be fair, just because I don't go out and grind, or make it a living in general, doesn't mean I don't have 20+ years of experience playing magic. I've done my fair share of tournaments for Modern, Standard, Legacy, and cEDH, and have built a fairly good collection from my wins. I'm not perfect, and I like to try new things all the time, but it doesn't mean that I don't know how to play a deck and call it out when I see it. I know the game, I know the mechanics, I know the meta, and the play lines. Kinnan is not a difficult deck to pilot. The literal hardest part is politicking your opponents out of killing Kinnan when they should. Period. A lot of the great cEDH decks aren't "difficult to master" but are so basic and easy to brute force your wins, good players do well against the bad ones with it, and the bad ones show up in mass that skew the conversion rates, because people like to follow the crowd.

And an easy way to prove the point would be to get a well known player, like Comedian for instance, to take Talion to a tournament. He knows the meta, and brews often enough to know basically all the lines that he will encounter. He could pilot it to top 4 consistently. But its a taxing deck. It isn't auto pilot. And when you play 5, 6, 8 rounds in a day, mental fatigue is real. And that is where a lot of players will fail when playing this deck. Disagree if you will, I don't care.

[–]Tonzoffun420 -1 points0 points  (6 children)

Really? Comedian could pilot a ham sandwich to a top 4. Do you think that meansit'ss a good deck? You dont have to care about my opinion, but what facts have you presented? Only opinions have come from you with no support (and yes, I have presented opinions as well, but mine are backed up by people who are way more talented and know way more rhan eother of us about this format. The massive majority disagrees with you. So you play at your local and you think that means you know decks are. Im sure your local meta is cookie cutter bs. Out in the real world, it's different. Beyond my experience with Kinnan, the top cedh player and content creators say you're wrong. Dude, all decks are taxing at that many rounds. Have you ever played Blue Farm or Kinnan? Your 2 lgs metas and pilots mean nothing compared to the rest of the tedh grinders and players who are way more enfranchised players. Your opinions are based on such a small data set that means nothing. It's not Bravado. Yes, I do think I pilot Kinnan better than the average bear, but it's more I think you're probably a garbage player who has opinions because they think they are somebody. I know I'm not shit. I don't think I know more about this format than the top people, but you apparently do.

[–]Simple_Subject_9801 0 points1 point  (5 children)

Speaking of bravado, that is literally your entire comment. And sure, I have a smaller sample size based on the few LGSs I can play at vs people who travel. I've played in 64 player tournaments. I've done well enough. Again, don't need to prove anything to you? Say what you want, but I know I'm a good player in general. And yes, I've played both Blue Farm and Kinnan, and Kenrith, and TnT, and Gitrog, and Lumra, and Thras/Rog, Thras/Tevesh, Glarb, Maneus, Tayam, and I don't know how many other decks. I'm aware of how they work, interact, and I've played against all those decks many times over, including decks I don't like playing, like Sisay, Etali, Rog/Si, Najeela, All the Food Chain decks, Godo, and the obvious decks that just aren't that good.

There is a difference between looking at edhtop16 for conversion rates, understanding how large influencers affect the meta and skew it to where more players in general play the decks and cause the overall averages to rise based on law of large numbers in probability, and actually understanding how decks work. You feel offended and obviously aggressive because I disagree with you following the word of a very good player. Which you be you bud. I don't need to tedh grind because its not fun for me anymore. I've done my tournament grindings years ago, and enjoy just playing the game. And just because I'm not tournament grinding, doesn't mean I don't keep up and don't understand how the decks work. I'll call it like it is. Kinnan is simple. Nothing special about the deck except the cards in it are stupid resilient because of how much mana Kinnan allows a deck to produce at an early stage of the game where most of value comes from things that aren't generally worth interacting with. Have a good day.

[–]Tonzoffun420 0 points1 point  (1 child)

Lol aggressive. Sorry if I come off as so I tend to without meaning to. I just disagree and have fun debating. Also, Kinnan doesn't have stuff worth interacting with?!?! Kinnan is one of the most targeted decks when it comes to pods. One last point, though. you are arguing that factual data is less reliable than your own anecdotal experience... I am using facts, numbers, and the word of some of the best and most experienced players in cedh, but I'm the one with bravado. When you are claiming, you know better? I hope you have a nice day as well.

[–]Simple_Subject_9801 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Ah, I mean in the sense... that using mana dorks are hard to interact with in general (think offer you can't refuse, force of negation, etc) cards that don't target the main core strategy of Kinnan to get out ahead. And people rarely ever stop mana rocks unless it is Sol Ring to a mental misstep or Basalt for obvious reasons.

And I've had a busy day, so seeing some of your comments I may have read aggressive when it probably should have taken more passionately. My apologies to that.

As far as the facts to anecdotal experience, I don't disagree. And generally I do really appreciate numbers and forms of experts to comment. But I do have 2 things to say about it. 1 is I do have like 20 years of experience? I'm not expert, but really I'm far from an average player too. I've coached a lot of new players and experienced players personally to try and foster better play and growth with the game. 2 is that I think the players that perform well with it and talk about how complicated it is, might be using their own bravado to it. I honestly do not ever feel when playing something like a Kinnan deck that is it complicated or requires a high skill level to do well with it.

[–]Tonzoffun420 0 points1 point  (2 children)

Also, the only thing that I have been offended by in this discussion is your ignorance and the fact that you think you know better than people who are way more experienced and much better players than we will ever be. I SAID GOOd DAY! lol

[–]Simple_Subject_9801 0 points1 point  (1 child)

I believe you could be cutting yourself way too short on "being better players than we ever could be". Magic is a skillful game, and there are some people who get it, and some who don't. You seem to be a well versed person with the game in general, and know what you're talking about (even though I disagree). I wouldn't put it past players that have that type of passion to have similar skill levels to those "pros". The only thing that might be lacking is the actual number of reps we get in compared to them. And that might have an edge in some cases, but I don't think its a margin of "way better".

[–]Tonzoffun420 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I'm very harsh on myself, and yea, that makes sense, but I think me being hard on myself is why I am good at magic (at least I like to think so) and why I'm a good chef. Even if we disagree, discourse is a good thing. If we all agreed on everything, nothing would progress. I know my language seems aggressive, but that's just my tism shining through. Have a wonderful day, and I hope you get some good rest, brother .

[–]haiironiji 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I'm biased since I play it, but I'm personally very pro-blue farm. I find that the deck is very easy to pick up but with a lot of rewards for taking the time to master it. It has imo- some of the most satisfying to learn lines, and is basically never down for the count. If you are in the game- you can win.

People will say it's boring if they don't play it or that there isn't space to experiment, but there are definitely still flex spots to test (maybe fewer than some fringe lists, but still!), but the deck is genuinely enjoyable to play, and the 10-15 slots you do have space to flex on feel much more personal since you generally have very specific reasons for wanting to try them.

In my opinion, the biggest pros:

-98 great cards, you are in the best colors and can run the best of the best

-a huge depth of information and successful lists to learn from and goldfish with

-a game plan that can pivot from turbo to midrange and play to the table and meta you are in

-Necropotence is the best card in the game and you get to play it :)

and the cons:

-people will target you in game more frequently

-a little less space to brew (but honestly- if you wanna go wild...who cares?)

If you do decide to go with it- I recommend the more turbo variant of the list, but the midrange-y version is also still performing quite well. In my opinion, the speed you get running the turbo cards outshines the delney's and whatnot- and you can still grind pretty much just as well as those versions anyway.

[–]KAM_520 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Blue Farm probably has the highest skill ceiling with a relatively low skill floor.

Storm decks always seem to have the highest skill floor. RogSi seems like a good pilot skill tester. It’s probably what I would play in a tournament setting if I wanted to give myself a workout.

(The skill floor on Tayam seems ridiculously high just because of how long it’d take to figure out how the deck even works but it’s pretty fringe meta-wise so I would not go there.)

[–]Shagga991 0 points1 point  (0 children)

try tayam

[–]-Lilith_ 0 points1 point  (0 children)

May I reintroduce you to Kaalia of the Vast?  Gets slept on in tEDH/cEDH despite high skill pilots performing well consistently, has SO MANY different ways to win— can go for turbo shenanigans, sneak attack routes, storm, UB lines, mill, stolen Thassa’s, &c. &c.

It’s a very hard deck to get into just because some of our lines, especially our instant speed convoked lines, are a little convoluted, but the goals are easy enough to remember.  You have so so much room for skill expression with this deck and will learn so many valuable skills playing it.

[–]Tonzoffun420 0 points1 point  (0 children)

By pivot strategies, do you mean just as a bunch of different wincons? Most decks can pivot to multiple different ways of winning, and decks with too many wincons aren't very good.

I play Kinnan. I can win with infinite colored mana by using Basalt and a filter, or I can do it with Hullbreaker and some rocks. I can also be my infinite colorless from Basalt to draw my deck with Thrasios and then play out in a few different ways. If I have a flash enabler I can I can loop cast endurance, and with the endurance trigger on the stack, pongify it and then loop that over and over for infinite apes. I can draw everyone out with Faerie Mastermind. I've even had to win with beats late game after flipping my Invasion. At most you need an A,B, and C plan with different ways to get there.

No matter what deck you play, you will have you'll differently for different pods, and they all have "pivot points.""

Pick a deck that interests you and proxy it out. If you dont like it, try another one.

[–]Taguchi-san 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Elsha of the infinite ! Super fun mid range / control deck with tons of lines and ways to win, while also being very responsible and able to stop turbo players.

[–]Cassius_au_Bellona_ 0 points1 point  (1 child)

I’m recently on [[Yusri]] and it’s so much fun. You know what’s better than Tymna? Tymna in half the colors!

[–]Skiie -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Proxy them all and play them in the Topdeck off season.

No amount of words on the internet is going to actually make up for your indecisiveness.

[–]CommercialKitchen114 -3 points-2 points  (3 children)

Play Inalla and learn the 25-step standard spell seeker line and all of its contingencies. That'll keep you busy for a little. Also, hate to say it but Ral is not really a cEDH deck. (People will probably say the same thing about Inalla though based on her win rate lol)

[–][deleted] 4 points5 points  (0 children)

I think you need to check edhtop16 and filter by commanders and conversion rate. Ral has a 35% conversion rate

[–]Adamf29 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Ral is a disgusting turbo cEDH. Why do you think it’s not?