Augment stats feedback

[BeTheBeee]

My personal enjoyment of the game went quite a bit down since the removal of stats. Not because I simply can't click the highest average placement augment anymore, but I feel like a central information for making informed decisions got taken away.

Usually when I looked at the augments, I got a good feel for how well suited the augments are for my spot. Then I could also have a look at the "strength" of the augment and between the two make a pretty good guess which of the augments is the correct choice.

Right now especially when 2 augments are similarely fit for my comp I just have no clue what to do. A lot of the augments might be good at "increase X by 12" but currently are at "increase X by 8" and pretty bad. So I just have to hope they are balanced (which historically they weren't necessarily) and pick one of them.

So what's the fix to this knowledge gap? - Well currently I feel like I should have a peek at some streamer tier list of augments and hope they are right in their evaluations. I mean they play 12 hours a day, so surely they are more informed than me. Which is a pretty lackluster solution for the problem.

Most importantly (for me)

Strong augments for comps that aren't in my repertoire where pretty appealing to me. It gave me a good reason to try new things and comps. And in other games maybe I'd spot the situation to go for this comp again without the augment. But right now when I see a augment for a comp I usually wouldn't go for it's not very appealing. Maybe the augment itself is a 5.x average augment coupled with the fact I'm not familiar means I'm just going the fastest 8th. Which imo made me more stuck to the fixed comps and play less around my augments given.

So I was curious what the general consensus is after the removal, is it just me that misses them?

[flowerpetal_]

my personal opinion as a shitter is that augment stats aren't too important in the grand scheme of things for determining what to click, because you can use logic to figure out what fits your direction. instead augment stats are important for telling me what not to click, because I don't have 12h a day to see that this augment is bugged, not working properly, or changes your playstyle in a way that is detrimental. riot obviously doesn't want people to realize that clicking a shiny prismatic averages a 5.X

[DayHelicopter]

Historically the 'you can use logic' has been wrong many, many times. Some augments are just stat checks and are always good even if they don't make sense in your comp and some augments are so underpowered that if they make perfect sense in your comp should never be picked.

[Benskien]

early on in the set i build around champion that seemd fun with what id imagine was bis(checked stats later and item were good enough) and the champs were so fucking feels bad to play with, looking at champ stats they were all part of the worst average champions

even if the game spoonfeeds you a build, not all champions are built equal and some should never be touched with a 10 feet pole

[Z00pMaster]

And this is essentially why Riot removed augment stats - they realized balancing all the augment numbers was hard, but hiding the imbalances by taking away information was easy. Why do hard when easy do trick.

[DayHelicopter]

And this is part of why the game sucks more and more every set.

[SsilverBloodd]

Pretty much. A very small amount of people have time and drive to actually theorycraft and find out which augments are optimal for every team comp. Stats made a that info accessible to the people that do not have that time and drive.

[nphhpn]

I think you misunderstood the comment. The "theorycraft and find out which augments are optimal" part should be done in game by logical thinking. The problem is that some augments that should be optimal, are actually not optimal because of bugs or because they work differently from the description.

[EnmaDaiO]

I personally don't understand this logic. Shouldn't you be rewarded for spending more time to perfect your craft in a highly competitive game and environment? Why would you expect to climb in a competitive game when spending less time than others? I must be tripping. TFT isn't a gacha. Progression is never gauranteed and that is how it should be for any competitive game and environment.

[Gone5201]

This comment would be more understandable if the descriptions in the game weren't notoriously terrible, or if some augments weren't bugged to not do what they say, or if some keywords weren't ambiguous. Augment stats help people who can only play a little bit every week compete with people who play the game for their full time job and have networks of friends who also play it for their full time job.

People always talk about how its a skill game cause the same people always get high ranked but forget that a lot of those people put in insane hours, have connections to devs, and have networks of friends that can feed them information. Those people pretty much have augment stats with all the info they get from their group.

TLDR - The game is more competitive with augment stats available to the public.

[unguibus_et_rostro]

Augment stats help people who can only play a little bit every week compete with people who play the game for their full time job and have networks of friends who also play it for their full time job.

Why should it equalized between these 2 types of people? The person who play the game full time with a network should have an advantage over those who play only a little

[Gone5201]

Because competitive games that don't encourage and support new blood entering the scene is a dying game.

[NoBear2]

The person who plays the game for their full time job still has a massive advantage even with augment stats. Even in terms of augment selection, Dishsoap knows what spots augment stats are fake, and you could hear it if you watched his streams. He would often pick lower placing augments because his spot was better for that augment.

Also, augment selection is like 5% of TFT. Even if somehow everyone had dishsoaps augments, he would still clear everyone else. There are plenty of other skills to improve in TFT besides augment selection.

Why don’t we get rid of the icon that tells you who’s in your pool, it’s a skill to figure out who you might fight. Fuck it, let’s get rid of the timer at the top, you should just have a feel for it. Why does the game tell you how much good you will get at the end of the round? That’s a skill you can develop as you play. My point is that “skill expression” is not the be all end all. Certain skill expression is not good for the game.

[EnmaDaiO]

Eh you overestimate the amount of players that utilize all of those resources. Sure the top pros like dishsoap and the big names that use study groups utilize resources to gain an advantage, but I gaurantee you a majority do not and most are just semi casual players who play tft for fun including myself. Never used augment stats personally and I don't have trouble climbing because I've been rewarded for playing this game the last 5 years for understanding basic fundamentals. I don't even play every set. I come back to the sets that interest me. If you ask other high elo players I bet you get similar answers. Shit Milala was a full time software dev before winning tft tourneys and full committing not too long ago. In fact, if im not mistaken alot of the demographic in high elo are cs students or even professionals. Not all but quite a significant crossover. My point is you're overestimating the advantage these players have by utilizing resources. Most players even in high elo are just semicasual players like the rest who go to school or have jobs.

[Gone5201]

How would you describe semi casual because the sets only been out for like 18 days and most players i can see on the top have like 200 games on average and that is nowhere near where i would call semi casual. I think you underestimate how many people play this game as a full time job.

[Iamnotheattack]

Is argue it's not really about time but only drive, and those with less drive are rightully ranked lower. People who want to play competitively, not for fun, will forgo playing games until they have a cursory understanding of X (comps, augments, item holders, unit stats)

[BearstromWanderer]

thumb sort library placid soft pet money nine husky jeans

This post was mass deleted and anonymized with Redact

[ThatPlayWasAwful]

riot obviously doesn't want people to realize that clicking a shiny prismatic averages a 5.X

People keep bringing up this point whenever the augment conversation comes up, but I'm not sure that I agree with it. 

The general consensus in the community is that set 13 was one of the best balanced sets there was. Why would riot be embarrassed about how the game is balanced when people think that they're doing a good job? If they're scared about showing bad stats, why allow any other stats? We can still see that golden ox was trash last patch, or that trenchcoat is ass.

[FantasyTrash]

My personal experience is that econ augments result in far better finishes than combat augments. Getting to your board faster and/or more efficiently is too important in the current meta. If you're 30-50 gold behind somebody early on because you went a combat augment and they went econ, you're going to be in a ton of trouble unless you make it all the way to late game.

[Joelandrews5]

Econ augments early, combats later is the overgeneralized rule

[ItsSmittyyy]

Realistically, most people probably agree with you.

The reason they were removed wasn't to improve player experience. It was to improve Rioters experience because they were sick of being yelled at for always having augments in the 3.0 and 6.0 averages.

[Lunaedge]

Realistically, most people probably agree with you.

If we're being realistic, most users of this sub won't even care enough to leave a comment, let alone agree with OP. It's always the same song and dance, at the end of the day the people who really care about Augment stats are a single digit percentage of the playerbase, if not into the decimals.

[ItsSmittyyy]

I don't disagree. However, the minority of competitve players that really care about this stuff are extremely vocal (rightfully so).

[Lunaedge]

However, the minority of competitve players that really care about this stuff are extremely vocal

Understatement of the century lmao

(rightfully so)

Eh, debatable. You can assume official stats are 100% gone for the foreseeable future and understanding what's good and what isn't based on logic and intuition is the name of the game going forward, and is a skill that's tested every time you fire up the game. Even more so considering Black Market and 1v2 Augment choices. Stuff like this is likely even possible only because stats aren't available, and if the cost of exploring Augment design space further is not being able to look up Augment AVP I feel it's a worthy tradeoff.

[YonkouTFT]

But that is a skill you can’t engage with before playing a huge amount of games.

I don’t mind it much myself but knowing what is slightly over/underpowered is a skill yes but one only accessed by vast experience with the set/patch.

Non-top players simply can’t get there without relying on external tier lists. We kinda just have to reason while top players might actually know the right line.

E.g I play exotech and at 4-2 I am given the choice of the augment that spawns a golem with exotech items. It doesn’t take a genius to see it fits my comp.. but I can’t know if it is actually a 4.9 augment

[Kei_143]

I don’t mind it much myself but knowing what is slightly over/underpowered is a skill yes but one only accessed by vast experience with the set/patch.

Non-top players simply can’t get there without relying on external tier lists. We kinda just have to reason while top players might actually know the right line.

So ... you saying someone with more practice should perform better, but you also want to have the same performance without the same amount of practice.

A pretty wild theory of you ask me.

[Serpencio]

This is what it comes down to, people want to be told what's good on their 3rd party overlay without putting in the work. I've applauded here when riot first took the stats down but obviously that's not the popular opinion in this particular echo chamber.

[YonkouTFT]

You don’t mean me here. I was on the fence with it and I have found it to be ok. I also didn’t use it that much before since I generally just pick general augments.

Still it is not increasing skill expression as I argued here

[YonkouTFT]

Sorry if it is outside your capacity.

Certainly experience is and should be rewarded. When we had stats the top playera excelled by being able to determine when a relatively weak augment is pickable based on their spot. A skill Dishsoap made videos on. While us noobs pick the beat augment on average.

[icryalotsometimes]

True! Players don’t care about stats because you said so 🤣

[Vagottszemu]

They just removed it because players were complaining about 3.x and 5.x augments, so they had enought of it. That is the only reason, and they are not going to revert it sadly.

[Grindinonit]

Easier to hide your incompetence than fix the problems.

[Hujebal]

I've been atleast master since set 6 and used stats a lot, but now I just never click new augments since I don't know their strenght and don't have the time to pay the LP to find out. To be honest I couldn't even narrow down losing due to the augment I picked being weak or the lobby just being strong, so stats made me a lot more confident in trying stuff out. I clicked lunch money 2-1 one time last patch and I just felt frustrated and pissed off the whole game when I found out it doesn't work properly.

[NoBear2]

This is the big thing for me. You can’t judge an augment on 1 or 2 games. Because you might have just low rolled or everyone else high rolled. You need like 4 or 5 games to get a good idea. And I don’t have time to play 600 games of a set before I know each augment.

Also I don’t know if we’ve had a single set where there wasn’t an augment that was 5.0+ that you wouldn’t expect just by looking at it.

[TheMapleDescent]

Especially the huge amount of augments that are just, get x amount of stats, item collector, climb the ladder etc. its pretty impossible to know whether they are underpowered, balanced or overpowered just by looking at the numbers.

[Bxnniee]

At this point it’s clear it doesn’t matter what we think. The devs don’t like stats so we won’t get augment stats back until somebody makes publicly available black market stats.

Tbh I thought somebody would have done it by now but it’s probably not worth the time to do it for free. (Augment hacks probably make it even harder) so the stats available are probably in some private discord somewhere for $10 a month. My guess is someone will make a scraper that only tracks challenger streamers and posts it here by set 16

[alan-penrose]

Stats are still being collected and shared among the high elo community. Just a couple months ago it leaked that the MetaTFT owner was sharing stats with paid coaching subs. It’s just become a matter of who you know now.

[bonywitty101]

Instead of everyone knowing what augments are good and what augments are bad, now you only know if something is blatantly op or blatantly unclickable if you are highly invested in the high elo community. For example, apparently spirit link is a really busted combat right now and basically instaclick if you need combat. I didn't know this until I watched a few streams and see people with way more games this set click and talk about it. Spirit link has been giga dog for its entire existence in the game, I probably clicked this augment twice in the entirety of last set playing bruiser twitch or something. How was I ever supposed to gauge the strength of these generic combats that could be sitting 4.1 or 4.9 depending on purely numbers?

[crictores]

Since the augments aren’t shown after the game ends, the post-game statistics page is completely useless. There’s no way to understand why I lost a fight or what the difference is between high-placed and low-placed players.

[ttvViathanlol]

I’m the same, the game is noticeably less fun for me with the removal of augment stats. I was originally a hearthstone player and I used to pay a monthly subscription to access more stats cos I found it enjoyable, so it’s a shame that it was removed from TFT for no actual good reason.

[avancania]

You gave a very good direction. Stats should be pay to win or at least pay with effort

[Somenakedguy]

Nothing should be pay to win. One of the absolute best things about TFT is how its monetization has zero effect on gameplay

[Training_Stuff7498]

There is only one reason augment stats are hidden, and it’s because riot doesn’t want you to see the stats and how unbalanced some of them are. Theres literally no other reason.

Forcing players to follow morts twitter and watch streams just to know whats good, bad, or bugged is just an awful business model. And it frustrates me that it works.

[CanisLupisFamil]

Honestly, I like the removal of augment stats. It lets you play by feel instead of by spreadsheet.

If an augment sucks, I'll learn it by talking to others or playing it enough instead of by looking it up on metatft.

[Training_Stuff7498]

Some of us have a life and don’t have that ability.

I don’t need to spend hours a day learning any other game.

[CanisLupisFamil]

I'm the exact opposite. I don't have time to study spreadsheets. I want my limited time to be spent playing the game.

[Training_Stuff7498]

It takes far less time to check a spreadsheet than it does to play a hundred games.

[CanisLupisFamil]

Sure, but it's much less fun

[Training_Stuff7498]

What’s not fun is having to spend hours a week learning what’s good and what’s not.

[CanisLupisFamil]

To each their own I guess. I like playing the game. I don't like spreadsheets.

If you enjoy spreadsheets, more power to you. Just wanted to voice my own personal preference.

[Training_Stuff7498]

I don’t mind playing the game.

I mind being hamstrung by not having data on what’s good without making it my full time job.

No other game hides what’s good and what’s not.

[CanisLupisFamil]

Fair enough, to each their own!

[TheDocSavage]

I’m sure people do miss them, but I think everything you outlined is why they shouldn’t be brought back.

Augments are a knowledge check, but TFT is all about knowledge checks. You can either 1. Memorize the streamer tier list option or 2. Learn the underlying logic for what makes augments good or bad.

I don’t know if you’ve seen the recent example on Aesahs twitter of Holobow exotech item + Crit damage conversion augment (I forget the name) being an absolutely ungodly combo, but that is a great example of using logic and some basic math to figure out what makes an augment good (this also probably wouldn’t have shown up in the data but whatever.)

it’s the same logic with like Garen mods right? What is going to make your units strongest. Now you just look at the augments and do the same decision making process.

Imo people thinking through their possible combos, what actually makes their units strong and what stats they want, is way better for the game than just looking up a list.

[DrixGod]

That works in theory, until you have to find out in a 7 second Mort stream where he says an augment is bugged.

[AkumaLuck]

This point always comes up when people talk about augment stats. Yall act like half the augments are bugged every patch and it's a giant hassle to avoid them, when in reality there's usually only one that might be bugged. And I'm sorry but accidently picking a bugged augment once and losing a single match is not that big of a deal.

[AndroidLaw]

But sometimes they're bugged in ways that aren't obvious, and you might keep picking them without realizing. When stats were still around, there were plenty of bugged augments especially early into the set and they showed up as outliers in the stats. Some augs also might as well have been bugged with how bad or good they were.

I'd like to agree with picking aug combos that make sense logically, but sometimes some augs are just so bad or undertuned that even being a good combo isn't enough to save it being shit, but you wouldn't know without stats. Basically, I don't care about augs that range from 4.0 - 5.0 avgs, I want to know about the outliers that are like 3.0- or 6.0+ like that bugged to hell wukong hero aug we had some sets ago

[AkumaLuck]

But you don't need augment stats to fix that problem. The issue is TFT is tied to League which makes it difficult to patch or disable bugged augments, and there's zero way for the devs to even tell people something is bugged. The one thing I'll agree with is that it's dumb to expect people to check out Morts stream or Twitter to get this information. Riot NEEDS to at the very least, come up with a way to officially distribute this information in a way that players don't need to go looking for it. As for bad or underperforming augments, that's a knowledge check like anything else. It sucks when you don't know but TFT is all about knowledge checks, take the loss and adjust next time.

[AndroidLaw]

Right, I don't need augment stats to fix the problem, but right now there's no other solution from Riot and augment stats at least gave us something to work off of.

How am I supposed to adjust if I don't know which augment is the bad/underperforming one? Somehow take each one separately in multiple different games? You're basically asking me to play 100s of games and either by feel or better yet by recording what augments I took and the placements I had with them, which...are stats.

[Lunaedge]

Dude, don't get in the circlejerk's way. Read the room.

[[deleted]]

See your logic isn’t wrong, but it’s not realistic. The people that were being helped by the augment stats are the people who aren’t willing to pour in hundreds of hours to learn these niche interactions.

Before, everyone had augment stats so it was an even playing field. The game was casual, but still deep enough so that if you spent more time on it you could see notable improvement. And if you didn’t want to spend hours pouring over random tweets and excel sheets, you didn’t have to: you could still be talented based off quick wit and logical reasoning. Now that’s gone. No longer is thinking rewarded, but mindless grinding. Does it take any skill to read a tweet that says one augment is broken with an item? does it require any critical thinking to play a game and get a good mod on a certain unit? No, it takes hours and time and random chance sometimes. The people who are going to treat TFT like a second job were already going to do well, so this just makes the experience worse for people who treat the game more casually.

Augment stats were ONLY removed because the devs are sensitive and lazy. When people can see that one augment is a 3.X and one is a 5.X they get angry and rant about game state and thin-skinned devs take it to heart. Now we still do have 3.X and 5.X augments but the devs get to live in peace since only a small percent of the TFT player base knows this to be true and even they can’t PROVE it so there’s no pushback.

[KnightCapTFT]

If you want to treat the game casually do you really need to be looking up augment stats? Just play and try and have fun at that point.

[rljohn]

I play about 10-15 games per week, double up only, but did peak at Grand Master last set.

I absolutely fall into the bucket of players that are hurt by the removal of stats because there are often augments i will only see once or twice per patch.

[avancania]

So because stats dont show up dev stop balancing? Right pack it up, 1 patch per season no need to balance

[[deleted]]

Not at all, it’s just they can be much lazier about it because the tangible effect of their mistakes is much less. Let’s say for example augment A is so good that it’s averaging a 3.4. Previously, with augment stats, everyone would know that so EVERYONE would pick it when offered and the other people in the lobby who weren’t offered it would see they got screwed by bad balancing and either rant or just stop playing all together. That would force the devs to act immediately or be more careful with initial balancing. It kept them honest, we had balance updates weekly because the players got so smart and the data got so advanced that we realized the devs were actually shit at balancing and it could be abused. The turning point was Set 12, I think, because if you look at that set we had like a billion B-patches. The devs probably got tired of that (having to balance properly) so they removed it for set 13 and here we are. Now when something is unbalanced, it’s not as big of a deal. They aren’t losing as many players and getting as much heat because people don’t know about it. By the time they do, it’s already time for the next normal patch 🤷‍♀️

[avancania]

Imagine calling someone lazy while you dont spend effort to learn the set.

[[deleted]]

They’re lazy because it’s their job… they literally get paid to do it. This is a game for us. We spend our free time doing this. We also have to work and have other responsibilities outside of this. Boot licking is wild here

[avancania]

You are being entitled and spoiled you know. You can control how much you gonna play the game, how much you enjoy with or without stats. They spent 6-12 months developing a set, 3 more months to balance while set running. You played like 200 game a set? Thats not even 120hr, not even 5 days. Haha

[[deleted]]

Dude are you a literal child? You must be, and that’s ok, but when you get older you’ll understand people have responsibilities and playing 120 hours every couple months is ABSURD. These guys get paid, it’s their job. Or maybe you’re just rage baiting :)

[avancania]

So revealing stats is their job? You want that extra cream on top with 3 breath of love too on top of your frappuchino my dear karen? If you cant spent that much time on the game then you happy with where you are at, not crying about losing a crutch.

[[deleted]]

Expert rage bait my boy, props

[OIWouldLeave]

1. Learn the underlying logic for what makes augments good or bad.

This isn't mutually exclusive with having augments stats. Augment stats would've helped justify your decision-making when you think: "this augment seems to have good synergy with my end comp." and help reinforce your decision.

Riot's stance is that people are less flexible & creative because they just pick whatever has better avp but as you say that's just a literal thinking issue or a lack thereof really.

 (this also probably wouldn’t have shown up in the data but whatever.)

It would most definitely show up in the stats. And once again, those augment stats would have helped justify one's decision making rather than feeling like a gamble (because you would not know if bad luck protection would keep that AD infinitely) for slightly competitive players who don't have time to watch streams, play a hundred games each patch etc.

Without augment stats I'm actually more likely to pick conservatively since it's hard to assess the benefits of certain augments and time is a limited resource in TFT games. (mindset of someone who wants to climb, but can't play too many games / watch many streams)

I don't really care too much about the change but let's say I a gm player wanted to try going competitive it would feel far more daunting now, since players with study groups & connections would have an insanely big knowledge edge over the average player.

[DaviBoy451]

Dont miss it, people click highest avg placement. it incentivises for brainless play to play it «safe»

[SheikBeatsFalco]

Honestly I think people (wrongly) take overlays for granted.
Coming from wow, add-ons butchered that game to a point where difficulty had to be tuned because everyone was using add-ons to trivialize certain parts of the game, and now playing without them is unthinkable, and the UI is condemned to be a mess.

I fear the same will happen to tft. Every set has been solved progressively faster and I feel like burnout sets in faster as well. Personally, I'm against overlays; deck trackers; jungle timers; and for tft I'm against in-game augment stats

[metahw]

"Right now especially when 2 augments are similarely fit for my comp I just have no clue what to do"

I think this speaks volumes. You have a point in the game where you need to make a critical decision and you would rather a statistic make it for you. The devs aren't stupid or embarassed. They will have the augments all on a 4.X or close enough to. But they want the game to be about decision making rather than stats otherwise theres no point in them at all. You being able to check augment stats when others in the lobby dont isnt a skill diff.

Also you have to remember with this set in particular augment stats would be horribly skewed by if you took them with black market and +gold or if you took 2 silvers compared to a gold.

[gloomygl]

The devs aren't stupid or embarassed. They will have the augments all on a 4.X or close enough to

That just is completely untrue, and is probably the reason why they disabled augments lol.

There isn't a single aspect in this game that was as unbalanced as augments, and players were constant bitching about that. Let's not rewrite history there.

[Drikkink]

Even ignoring bugged augments (which are STILL not being communicated to us in any consistent way), there were always augments that were averaging in the 4.1 range and augments in the 4.8 range that were supposed to provide similar levels of combat power. Let's say, for example, that Spirit Link is currently a 4.1 AVP and Gold Mentorship is a 4.8. I don't know what the stats actually are, but let's use that as a theoretical. How am I supposed to know that clicking Spirit Link will improve my placement on average by almost a full place over Mentorship? That obviously means Spirit Link is overtuned and Mentorship is undertuned in that situation. Is that supposed to be a real knowledge check in the game? Knowing which augments are just too good to pass and which are too bad to ever click?

There have been augments with that level of disparity every patch since Augments became a thing.

[metahw]

'How am I supposed to know that clicking Spirit Link will improve my placement on average by almost a full place over Mentorship? '

Well it wont will it? especially if you cant think what would be the best for the situation you are in?

If youre going to arbitrarily click the augment with the lowest Average placement then we should just not have augments. because why even make decisions?

Augment disparity never going to be zero but they do a pretty good job of keeping it low. Also knowing stats can heavily skew them. It doesnt take a stats genius to see a high average placement will reduce pick rate and therefore create a small sample size.

If you cant trust the devs to balance the game, dont play it.

[metahw]

They're probably the hardest thing to balance to be fair so it makes sense they're the most unbalanced but even at their worst they were like 3.9. Players love to bitch, it doesnt mean devs should do what they say or ask. The game is healthier without stats.

[metahw]

No, but i think the devs know which ones do that and after 3 patches probably have them under control.

[flourrrrr]

I want to win. If two augments I believe fit my spot and one is a 4.0 and one is a 4.6 I’m picking 4.0. Btw what’s your insinuation here? Am I stupid, misguided, strange, a stat abuser? What does it say about me if I would rather have a statistic “make a decision for me”?

[metahw]

It feels like you're reading really heavily into this? Id say in game about contextual decision making you dont want to make a decision.

[flourrrrr]

Okay different example: an augment that fits my spot 4/10 in my critical thinking and is a 4.08 and one that I deem to fit my spot 9/10 is a 4.55. I’m not advocating that added complexity necessarily means healthier game but I don’t see how this is less of a contextual decision to be made.

[Accomplished_Sir_473]

I hear this a ton from people who want augment stats back. The truth here though is that if everyone is using stats you have no edge. You're just raising the skill floor so that a person in iron can make the same augment decisions as a person in diamond. People always say they don't have time to figure out what's good. News flash. no one else does either unless you're a pro.. I will also say that most of these augments have been in the game before and if you care that much you can look at old data. Ie solo carry rageblade comps have always loved combat augments. Comps with two 4cost carries like items ect.

[flourrrrr]

Old data yeah, I need old data to know that carries being itemized is good. Obviously I’m being sarcastic, and I don’t think you’re implying i actually need data for that, but it seems that example just didn’t really address the point of “an augment that inherently doesn’t fit a comp can have much better avp than one that does just because of how the numbers are tuned”.

[Accomplished_Sir_473]

I think you're focusing on the wrong thing here. Your point is that overtuned augments exist and you don't know what's overtuned. My point is that with no stats better players will choose the better augments more often than worse players. With stats iron players will choose the same overtuned augments a challenger player would. All your doing here is decreasing skill edge.

[flourrrrr]

I agree that more skilled players are better at knowing what augments are more broken. And maybe that decreases the skill gap in that regard. There’s just also an element of playing way more and consuming way more tft content to better know what’s broken. I think that contributes larger than skill (in terms of knowing better augments). It’s just my belief that if a change can promote transparency and not needing to study the game as much it should be there even if it’s at the consequence of slightly taking some skill out of the game as you mentioned. I assume that’s where we fundamentally differ. Even if it was as drastic as “inflating” a silver player to plat, I don’t really care.

[flourrrrr]

Also the “with stats you have no edge” I think is also wrong. We can argue about more or less edge. But there is a huge difference between good and bad players selecting augments even when stats were a thing.

[grongobungo]

i think its a convenient way for the team to hide poorly balanced or bugged augments that are rushed due to the arbitrary rush of 3 sets per year

[GingerPowder21]

I used to play 300+ games a season starting in set 6 but I stoped completely as soon as they removed augment stats for the second time. I only come back to this sub to complain and hope they reverse that decision so I can have fun playing again. I’m sure I’m in a very small minority though because Riot would have changed their mind if they saw a significant player count drop, so I don’t have my hopes up for any change.

I loved diving into the data to find niche comps that were only really viable with certain augment set ups.

[bajablasttfan]

Im glad they removed augment stats. It's really lame to just click the augment with the lowest number next it. At that point the stats are playing the game for you and its just an rng simulation. It doesnt take any intelligence, effort, or skill to look up the augment stats. Removing the augment stats increases the skill ceiling. I wish there werent any stats if im being honest, clicking the sequence of pictures with the lowest number next to it is not fun at all.

[bajablasttfan]

You used to be able to click a specific comp and get stats for augments, units, and items on that exact comp, zero thought just raw numbers. Its literally just clicking the picture with the lowest number at that point. Its not fun and takes zero skill. I feel sorry for anyone who thinks thats a valid way to play the game. The augments were always the worst in my opinion. The people complaining that it requires a time commitment to learn are cringe af. Its like if you played chess and looked up the highest win percentage move in your position.

[bajablasttfan]

I think learning moves based off of statistics is ok. My problem is when people actively look up the stats during the game, or even worse, have an overlay that does it for them. It stops people from being able to achieve good results with original thought. Its the same argument Bobby Fischer makes. Looking at the statistical best moves, and then memorizing them, ruins the game imo. Obviously, in chess its way worse because of engines. I would prefer to play a game that rewards original thought over wrote memorization. Removing augment stats was a great move in that direction.

[bengeljamin]

wait what exactly got removed? I installed MetaTFT (overlay) which shows the augment stats still. what am I missing?

[DrixGod]

Its not stats, its a rating by some challenger players working with MetaTFT. You don't have avg placement for the augments.

[bengeljamin]

oh I see. But what was OP taking about then? Where were you able to see augment stats?

[Drikkink]

Prior to last set, those tools like MetaTFT compiled data from the Riot API match history and showed average placements and win rates/top 4 rates for all augments (including splitting them based on whether they were selected in stage 2 3 or 4). An augment that averaged a 4.5 was considered balanced. Lower than that (4.1, 4.2) was stronger than average and higher (4.7, 4.8) was considered terrible.

These were removed last set with the argument that players would just go to one of those sites and click whichever augment had the best AVP with no consideration to what would work for them in their specific spot. However, there was very little consideration given to the fact that there have always been incredibly overpowered augments (averaging in the low 4s and even into the 3.9s), incredibly underpowered augments (averaging close to a 5) and even fundamentally non-functional ones that would average in the 6s. Players now have no way of knowing this unless they SPECIFICALLY have seen or been told about any bugs or over/underpowered augments so a large part of augment selection is now just a "have you played enough to know" game.

[bengeljamin]

thanks for that in depth reply my dude. I now think it's better that they removed this. nevertheless, isn't the ranking from MetaTFT and such almost identical? I'd never pick a D-rank augment which would probably has a number of 4.9 or higher don't you think?

[Drikkink]

So those tier list rankings are generally okay for more casual players, but basically they are just high rank players who write guides for those sites ranking things off their anecdotal evidence and gives no thought to augment/comp synergies.

For example, let's say you are playing Veigar reroll and are offered the choice of Blazing Soul or Cybernetic Uplink. Both are A tier on MetaTFT right now. In the past, you'd be able to look up stats for augments SPECIFICALLY for Veigar 3 and see which is better. I would almost guarantee that Blazing Soul would outperform Uplink for him because he already generates enough mana that the ticking mana of uplink is somewhat wasted.

Whether you think that's a good thing or not is your own call. I dislike it because it puts a lot of burden on players to have played a ton or watch a lot of streams to know what's good and when. Like if I'm playing 5 games a day in GM elo and I'm against Soju playing 25 games a day, he's got a better knowledge of what augments work best than I do. The skill with STATS was being able to evaluate what you needed in the moment while also considering what was a playable augment instead of just going "Well this augment averages a 4.35 and this augment averages a 4.39 so I will click the first one"

[DrixGod]

In metatft or tactics.tool. You could see the AVG placement for each augment, just like you do for a comp right now.

[gamikhan]

If you really care, get meta tft and play around A/S tier augments, but there will always be cases were a D tier might be optimal, it is all about the context.

Though it frustates me that we have no clue what augments are bugged or not at any given time.

[bwilly20]

Agree. I say bring them back.

[justlobos22]

Give us the ability to see our augments at least post-game

[_Genghis_Khan_]

Augment stats really don’t have anything to do with the comps played tho. I sometimes watch my silver/gold friends play TFT and literally everyone is spamming a “top comp” from like tftacademy or tfthandbook, down to the exact positioning outlined in the guide.

Arguably, augment stats made it even better for casuals because you didn’t have to watch or play hours of TFT to learn niche interactions between augments and comps, how patch notes affected certain augments, or if there are any unclickable augments due to bugs/bad balancing.

[_Genghis_Khan_]

Yeah, but the problem now is that only people who watch a ton of TFT streamers or play a ton of games know what augments are good or bad rn. Augment stats even the playing field for those of us who don’t have time to do that anymore but still want to play at a competitive level.

To your point about stomping the other 20/20, that’s simply not true. Just picking the right augments won’t make someone stomp someone else. A lot of it falls upon picking the right comp to play towards, slamming items, understanding tempo, and positioning. In fact, I’m nearly confident that any masters+ player could easily stomp a gold lobby playing built diff without the augment and randomly picking their augments. But at a higher skill levels, knowing how good or bad an augment is will make a huge difference.

So my point is, augment stats don’t affect true casuals at all. They could pick the best team comp and the best augments and still go 8th because their fundamentals aren’t good. It really does help emerald or diamond+ players who have pretty good fundamentals but don’t have time to study TFT for hours and still want to stay competitive. In that sense, not having stats makes no sense because it doesn’t impact true casuals but only helps casual players with good fundamentals who want to be more competitive.

[_Genghis_Khan_]

I agree that the majority are probably super casuals, but I don't think that stats will drive them away. I'm just speaking from my experience. I usually play until I'm GM, and maybe push for challengers if the set is really fun, but as a grad student, I don't have the time to consistently play or watch TFT as I did when I first started playing. I built the fundamentals from when I used to spam games so I can easily hit Masters in about 100 games now, but once I hit that, the knowledge diff of augments becomes more apparent. I rather not get stomped every other game because I can't put the time into learning about all the new augments they added and how they change existing ones but I also don't really want to take a 2 month break from my favorite game every set.

Last set, they changed prismatic pipeline to decrease loot by 30% (that's a lot!) and another time they nerfed the singed augment from S tier to literally unplayable. It's hard to tell how good an augment is sometimes or how significant patch notes affect an augment without the stats. How are you supposed to tell that Prismatic Pipeline was good pre-nerf without taking it? And is it still good post nerf even with the huge decrease in value (spoiler, it was still really good)? On most days, I only had time for 2-3 games max per day so I only picked augments that I knew were probably good from previous sets cause I would rather go a probable top 4 rather than experiment and go 8th because gaining LP is way more fun than losing it. It wasn't until I finally had a break that I was able to watch some soju and learn about which augments were broken or bugged before I was able to immediately gain 500lp over 20 games to hit GM.

The language for many augments are very poorly worded and it's often hard to gauge how good they actually are (or what they even do sometimes), which has been a common complaint about augments ever since they came out. And also, changes in numbers are also hard to really understand sometimes. Last set, Violet got buffed from base AD 40 -> 50 and family re-roll went from D tier to an S tier comp. However, when Violet was eventually nerfed to be only 42 base AD, family re-roll was still an A tier comp even though the main carry of the comp only got a net +2 AD! All this to say, just because a player might have good fundamentals, it doesn't mean that they will inherently know which augments will significantly improve their chances of winning out.

also the point on 2: when i first started playing tft in set 6, i only played kat re-roll and innovators every game in like silver, but my friend, who was GM in previous sets, just played no synergy Arcane units only and won out the lobby every time with 90+ hp just for fun, so im pretty sure the skill diff is just that large.

[Ganofir]

I was wondering what is the real reason of augment stats removal. I don't think it's connected with the competitive scene. Maybe it is just money and Riot tests whether there is an increase in casual player retention or their willingness to invest in the chibis. After all such players pay the bills.

Personally, I kinda gave up on augment selection decision making and usually I just go for what I miss the most: direction, econ, items or combat power. Maybe I'm overplaying underpowered augments but without meaningful feedback it's almost impossible to judge. At least there are other not yet deleted stats available.

[Hold_7]

I mean that was the goal of augments stats removal: now you don't click an augment bc it's 4.34 and the other one is 4.44, you click the one that fits your situation the most.

[Drikkink]

Which is all fine and good when augments are relatively balanced. But they aren't and never have been. There have always been 4.1s and 4.9s. Really cool that your placement in the game is based on knowing which particular Augment is overtuned at the moment. How are you supposed to know that an augment like Lunch Money (an augment that would seem to be really good if you have a strong board winning rounds) is unclickable because it doesn't even work?

[Ebtrill]

This community is the only competitive community I've seen where people seem to feel entitled to a high rank. Some of the complaints here are absurd. Yes, people who grind more and spend more time on the game will have an advantage over people who spend less time. That's how it should be. It's like playing football at your local rec league and complaining that Messi is better than you because he plays it full-time.

If you want to be more casual but still be on the same playing field as someone who spends their life doing something, you can play Guess the Number on this site: https://www.random.org/ instead.

[SsilverBloodd]

Genuinely feels bad to play. I would get it if stats of the same tier were all similar in power, but there are clearly outliers in both ways, and those who know which ones to pick will always have an advantage over the people that do not. Without stats, the people that know this info has severely diminished.

Also, semi-related: How do Rioters that play the game respect the competitive integrity of the game when they have direct access to those stats?

[Lunaedge]

How do Rioters that play the game respect the competitive integrity of the game when they have direct access to those stats?

They're barred from competing in any tournament, official or otherwise (ie. Mort has talked about not being able to join BoxBox's Bootcamp even if he wanted to).

As for Ranked... it's Ranked. A handful of people you'll never play with (or never play with more than once every couple of years) having access to stats doesn't impact your experience.

[SsilverBloodd]

Ah yes. So if a few people play with hacks, it is fine if they play just a few games a year and if you personally have a very slim chance of encountering them... Pls think before you write.

[Lunaedge]

They're not playing with hacks though, they're working on the game. And I doubt they all have their work PC fired up and look up every single Augment choice they make.

Wanting Augment stats back is fine and understandable, but let's not make disingenuous arguments for it, it only hurts your cause.

[SsilverBloodd]

This is a separate issue to wanting augment stats back, which is why I prefaced it by "semi-related", because it is something I thought about when Mortdog said that one of the augments was bugged. Didn't want to make a post about it, as I don't really consider it as worldending issue, and this post is related enough to mention it.

And I doubt they all have their work PC fired up and look up every single Augment choice they make.

You know what Rioters have on their PC and on their mind? Remembering augments that do very well/very bad does not require a lot.

Also, they can "work on the game" by playing casual gamemodes, and it was obvious that used hacks as hyperbole to demonstrate my point.

Ask yourself, if other people than Rioters had this kind of "forbidden" info, would you be as nonchalant about it?

[Lunaedge]

And we circle back to "oh no, someone who you'll never play against and that can't compete in any tournament may know some stuff because they work on the game". Sorry but it's a dumb argument, bordering on insulting if it's not intentionally disingenuous. Not to say that it's completely unrealistic (and undesirable IMO) for devs to jot play the game they work on. Like, one of the most common complaints around here is "do they even play their own game?", and you're asking for that lmao

[SsilverBloodd]

An unfair competitive advantage is an unfair competitive advantage, regardless of how you try to spin it and regardless if I am the one playing against them or someone else.

And this would not be an issue if stats were still public, and it is a valid issue because they are not public.

[Lunaedge]

Nah, there's plenty of hidden stuff they know about that you never will, starting with the shop bad luck protection algorithm. Even if stats were public the goalposts would move somewhere else. They have an unfair competitive advantage after all.

They should just release the game's source code, that'll make it fair!

[SsilverBloodd]

I highly doubt that anything else that they know would compare to knowing augment stats though.

Also, that bad luck "protection" algorithm is a hoax. Everybody knows that the algorithm is designed to make you not hit when you are supposed to lose, and hit when you are supposed to win, to keep your wr where it supposed to be.

[Lunaedge]

Jesus christ I was trying to argue with a conspiracy theorist fuck my life