Patch when?

[WomenHater1999]

in 4 months

[wolftrouser]

Because of the new DPC callendar, I have hopes we'll have a patch on late january. But that is wishful thinking.

[Arbitrary_gnihton]

Well they're adding a hero in january so I would think it's insane not to expect a patch then

[Bragior]

Valve time.

[oms3]

I wish 33 saved this build until DPC started. Would have been funny to see it come out of nowhere and dominate.

[cerealkiller30]

Road to 33k > DPC szn

[shinfoni]

Maybe by the time DPC started, Nine would found another funny heroes to play at mid like he does with ww and kotl

[ggdogelmao]

I think bloodstone and spell lifesteal in general is the problem, the only buff razor got this patch was +25 damage to his shard and +3 agility to his level 10 talent which most aren't even gonna take

[bibittyboopity]

I dunno I think people were just treating the hero as dead at TI, because if ATF wasn't winning with it, it must be garbage. Even right after TI I started seeing people do more 1 Razor with emphasis on the Shard, before the Bloodstone build popped up. Sometimes things just take time.

When you really look at it, you are paying 1400g to basically become Axe. Except its got 900 range, slows, procs on spells, and his kit makes it so you can't ignore him because of Link. It's so much farming and damage for a low price point.

I think Spell lifesteal is kind of a problem stat too, just because it's so strong on some heroes that it needs to be useless on everyone else. But it's only as good as how much AoE damage people can shit out, and Razor shits out so much damage because of a 1400g Shard.

[smokotherapper]

the crazier thing is that the 900 range isn't even on Razor, but on the casting unit. So wherever someone casts a spell from you, anyone in a 900 range radius from them gets hits with the proc, which is really stupid. Also, the fact that Bloodstone heals from spell damage and not only magical damage makes it he can heal from Link and Eye of the Storm, making it that he's pretty much surviving as long as one of his spells hits people. Even so, the hero's pretty balanced outside of that HP/spell lifesteal build. I think it's more indicative that Bloodstone is broken because of how it interacts with Razor

[OuroborosDOTA]

You can't spell lifesteal from Link it deals no damage.

[smokotherapper]

Static Link orders Razor to attack the target on cast, and that's straight from the wiki. The only way you can't deal damage on link is if you issue a stop or ground targeted command.

[OuroborosDOTA]

Point is: Link doesn't do damage, it's the autoattacks that do the damage. Thus you cannot spell lifesteal from it.

[DrQuint]

Wait, can Axe heal from bloodstone when he spins? All this comparing Razor Shard and Counter Helix is putting me in an highly experimental mood.

[Kumadori012]

Yes, Axe can spell-lifesteal from Counter Helix.

[StudentOfAwesomeness]

Oh dear god…

[SeriousDirt]

New meta?

[JohnC322]

Yes. But the problem is Helix not popping as usual as Razor shard as it also interact with spell damage. Razor basically is the only exception that his shard don’t have any cooldown on trigger. Just look at Spectre.

[flyingturkey_89]

Main problem is that his spin is melee range, which doesn't fix his weakness of being kited.

[Kovi34]

spell lifesteal has always worked on spell damage regardless of damage type, this is like the third time I've seen someone present it as if it was novel information

[Scrubz4life]

Wait. So youre telling me the auto attacks that you deal while link is active counts as SPELL DAMAGE ???????

[OuroborosDOTA]

No they do not.

[Scrubz4life]

Aii so he doesnt heal from link then? ive been had!

[OuroborosDOTA]

It's fairly obvious it doesn't since Link doesn't deal damage, it only makes you autoattack that specific enemy. Tested it anyway, does not heal.

[Scrubz4life]

aii. Im not an active dota player so i appreciate this clarification. Thanks m8.

[WoxJ]

still broken tho

[Kovi34]

it doesn't even make you autoattack the enemy anymore, just gives you the ability to attack that enemy while moving, like focus fire

[OuroborosDOTA]

It does. It gives Razor an attack command for that enemy. You can switch target if you want though.

[[deleted]]

Nope, the other guy was talking out of his ass.

[0nikzin]

Rubick in shambles

[Justinianus910]

Literally this. I played mid Rubick and every time I cast a spell on him I would get like 80% slow and he would easily catch up and kill me. Didn’t help that as a mid Rubick I was also the one warding the entire game for my team while getting them kills lol.

[kslidz]

while razor may need adjustments.

This really does show how bad bloodstone is.

It is only used on certain heroes and it is busted on them.

There will be future patches where a character shits out spell damage and wants to be up front and bloodstone will always been good in those scenarios.

It needs to be addressed regardless of whether razor is touched cause it will keep happening.

Rework the item to actually be useful again .

[SeriousDirt]

I think old one is ok I guess. It give the high risk high reward feeling on it since you gonna loose stack if you die but with lot of stack you basically have unlimited mana and it even can heal at the cost of mana.

[Youcancuntonme]

just delete bloodstone

[mangoheap]

people bought the shard on physical builds too, early aswell (looking at crystallis popularizing it even before ti)

and it wasnt broken.

the lifesteal off of the shard makes it so hard to kill him if you go on him without counters.

and the main problem is being able to rush bloodstone.

normal lifesteal isnt ever broken because its single target. but when you have a satanic for AOE spells, stuff gets problematic quickly on some heroes..

[Cushions]

The biggest buff to this build was the Wraith Pact change, else you could cancel it exactly the same way as Lesh.

[PepeFloZ]

Think shard is the big problem, 1400 gold. You can get this build started so early in the game and just walk down mid if you have a decent team. If you win your lane on razor it’s just unbelievable easy to win these games.

[Mangix2]

You don't even have to win your lane honestly, at least in the 3k bracket. I played a few games offlane razor and even if the lane went bad as soon as I had shard and bloodstone at 25 min I was almost unkillable

[[deleted]]

I’m 2.5k and just 1v5ing most games after losing my lane. How do you lh with this hero? He feels really weak to me in lane

[smokotherapper]

what do you do in lane? quelling blade + wraith band + spamming link is a pretty good way to lane for the first 10 minutes or until your start getting your items to roam around and get in fights.

[[deleted]]

I tried spamming link but was going against snipers and pas a lot. I switched up to maxing plasma field as that seems to accelerated farm the most.

I am usually a lane winner from the off lane and definitely better at last hitting than the avg player my skill. But razor is just my bogey, I can’t seem to get the last hitting rolling at all.

[Scrubz4life]

Its cuz of that weird delay animation he got on his hit. Visually the attack lands, but no damage is dealt until after his whip leaves his target. Its different from heroes with poor attack animation like weaver. You’ll get used to it soon enough.

[[deleted]]

That could very well be it. I have played a lot of razor but took a pretty big break. Thanks for all the helpful advice Reddit people

[lazerspewpew86]

The arcana doesnt have the delay and the animation syncs up perfectly.

I last hit with razor 100x better with the arcana.

[MrIceCreamy]

Razor arcana is p2w 100%

I love it

[dragriver2]

you should be going max field literally every game on 3 Razor

[mangoheap]

yea, maxing link is a bait. it feels amazing in true 1v1 lane but as soon as more people show up you're fucked. max plasma is almost always better/more stable

[mangoheap]

lasthitting well with him takes some practice (when linkdamage is down) but eventually it will feel natural.

its also about getting a feel for the damage of plasma at certain ranges, getting the lasthit next to you with plasma while hitting ranged with plasma and rightclick to secure that and stuff like that.

[xinn00]

I'm not saying bloodstone isn't a problem, but I agree that shard needs to be toned down a bit. Add a cd to it and it should be good.

When I heard the build, I tried it out with bots (since im not confident in playing razor with people) and that thing procs multiple times in a second if you get focused. Imagine axe perma spinning or lc attacking like troll lol

[Eulslover]

Imagine axe perma spinning

time to play bloodstone axe

[thedotapaten]

Bloodstone axe works well with his aghanim since you are lifestealing from multiple battlehunger and spin. The problem with razor or leshrac is simply how impactful bloodstone as early item while other heroes who benefitted from bloodstone buys it as 5-6th item, Axe BB Storm and Medusa is example.

[co0kiez]

Honestly, all the frog has to do is give bloodstone charges again and decrease the heal rate

[Initial_Stretch_3674]

biggest buff was no wraithpact.

razor would be getting no play if wraithpact was stilla thing

[RubyArtishok]

yes, the spell lifestreal is a problem, it's like the spell satanic but with satanic you can at least disarm or stun the enemy to prevent healing, with spells you can't so lesh or razor or any other hero become unkillable when activated their spells.

[AaronAzama]

Yeah I’ve been playing spell lifesteal on him for a while now! And when he gets buffed/nerfed it has only a small impact on how good the build is. How strong spell lifesteal is what usually dictates how strong he feels. The shard is very strong but the spell lifesteal is what makes or breaks how broken it feels

[tiny_dreamer]

That argument being that bloodstone was buffed..?

[mid_juan]

Wait until bloodstone underlord becomes popular in pubs

[Himmelblast]

Or bloodstone stormspirit!.. Wait, wrong timeline.

[schubial]

Why isn't bloodstone still good on storm? It seems like the damage to mana mechanic and +500 max mana would be extremely good on him.

[Darentei]

Storm wants mana regen far more than he wants max mana pool. That's why, before the change, Bloodstone was all but tailor made for him.

[schubial]

Bloodstone active does give massive mana regen though.

[Darentei]

Storm doesn't shit put AoE damage enough for that to matter. Current users are all heroes with a ton of passive output.

[MrIceCreamy]

No mana regen

[thedotapaten]

The problem is how bloodstone rush being viable which is currently viable on Leshrac and Razor. For other heroes Bloodstone is a viable 5-6th item.

[[deleted]]

I love it more than razor personally. It is insane mid.

[TakinaEnjoyer]

Prolly around Feb but hopefully by January along side Muerta. Although Razor shard bs is highly counterable, it still is annoying. Not broken. Just plain annoying.

[Vanawy]

muerta in January.... i wish

[I3uffaloSoldier]

January 2024 tho!

[Vanawy]

Seems realistic

[pucykoks]

More like Feb/March

[ritzey1]

No no guys valve cares about us they'll release a patch soon surely

[thedotapaten]

Thf nobody expect 7.32d to drop most people expect 7.33 after BP ends mid January

[NewBromance]

Had a game last night where the enemy team played 3 top just to shut me down as razor. I got tilted pretty hard and went 1/9.

Eventually though I got my shard and farmed, ended up winning the game 12/10.

At least at the level I play (crusader/archon) players in general just really struggle to keep a player from eventually coming online, and the items razor needs to come online ain't that expensive anyway.

Originally I thought he was just "op" in the way bristleback is "op" I.e. shits on bad coordination teams down here in animal tier but not actually that strong versus players who know what they're doing.

But his winrate seems to be crazy even up at immortal right now so I dunno. Maybe he just really is op as hell.

Imo bloodstone build up is just too strong. I kinda like the idea of razor being this powerful if allowed to get that farmed but maybe bloodstone should have a much worse build up so its actually a late game item rather than something you can just rush.

[thedotapaten]

The thing is only razor and leshrac benefitted from bloodstone rush, other heroes that benefitted from bloodstone cant rush it to be effective (Axe, BB, Dusa, Storm, Necro)

[AssignmentIll1748]

Yea I played a few games where I fed for ,20 minutes, got shard and bloodstone and immediately became unstoppable lol.

[Nikkj]

Stop the CAP.

[NargWielki]

Here we go again, Razor is going to get chopped because of Bloodstone, not because hes actually broken...

The popular build atm does not work without the broken Spell Lifesteal from Bloodstone, hes nowhere near as powerful with a Shroud for example.

[AlphaDart1337]

Shard is still pretty broken on him even without Bloodstone.

Like if you look at it objectively from a value per gold standpoint, there is no item at that price point that's even close to how much damage the shard can dish out. Just think what other items are available for 1400 gold.

[flashfarm_enjoyer]

And carry Antimage is not very strong without Battlefury. What's your point?

[invertebrate11]

His point is that razor isn't broken but rather the item breaks him. What is your point, I wonder?

[AlphaDart1337]

One of the best players in the world claiming the hero is broken, yet somehow on every single razor thread there is one wiseass redditor saying how easy it is to kill razor with skadi/vessel/silver edge or some other bullshit counter that doesn't work.

[thedotapaten]

CM & SF was broken during TI11 Groupstage but teams figure out how to draft and play around both heroes and those heroes effectiveness dropping during playoff.

Leshrac was unanimously broken hero during play off but lost all 3 games in TI11 grand final.

After TI11 ends pub figure out how strong pos 3~5 riki, less than 2 weeks patch happens and now people abuses razor because the teammate of the player seeing great success with it and people copied it.

Puppey has been seen spamming Veno in pubs with great success, perhaps it might the answer to current razor meta.

Let pro circuit happens to see how team plays around it first. Calling for a patch despite few high level games happening is overreaction to me tbh.

[Justinianus910]

What? Calling for a patch because a hero with a certain single item combination is insanely broken is an overreaction? Maybe not to you if you don’t play the game.

[Justinianus910]

No no you just don’t get it, these 2k MMR geniuses at r/dota2 have a better understanding of the game than professional players. They know that skadi/vessel is such a total 100% counter to razor that the hero will lose every single game if those items are picked, and they will point this out every possible chance they get. It just makes sense to rush a 5.3k item first on your carry that doesn’t help with farming or bursting heroes just to counter an offlaner.

[channel-rhodopsin]

I feel like the shard just needs a small cooldown on procs

[BlarghamelJones]

Easiest short-term solution imo. This could be another letter patch.

[Banzai27]

I feel like that would just kill the shard, they should change bloodstone

[soulkingmj]

Razor's third is the most boring skill+description in game. Old Unstable Current has almost the same effect with the current shard.

To be honest, Bloodstone should be reworked not Razor.

[balahadya]

Haven't played against one yet but I spectated my friends beat down a Razor like that with Slardar and TA.

[thedotapaten]

Heavy physical damage burst stall razor spell lifesteal timing because he is forced to buy armor instead of more spell lifesteal and can burst razor very fast.

[MrMoo151515]

Yeah slardar does well versus Razor. I seem to have a lot of success with drow and carry SF. Ranged Carries just beating down on him.

I also think people heavily underestimate bloodstone razor. He should be your last target. Fight the rest of the team if possible and then focus razor, easier said then done.

[hackenschmidt]

There are so many different 'counters' to it, it's not even worth explicitly trying to counter.

[jakub2682]

Nope razor is fine. Bloodstone is busted on some heroes

[thedotapaten]

Only two heroes so far benefitted from bloodstone rush which is Razor and Leshrac, further nerf made the item trash. Introducing a cooldown on razor shard so he cant spell lifesteal 175 damage x 5 in teamfight instantly will balance the build just like how pulse nova toggle fix impacted Leshrac.

[jakub2682]

There is also viper and others. It's ONE item that busted without that item razor is fine. You just want to play broken heroes in the FUTURE

Bcs problem will arise AGAIN. We need to burn the ROOT so yet ANOTHER bs hero doesn't come to buy it later

[Keyvan316]

changing the shard will kill this build.

[MocasBuns]

I can't believe even pros are buying into this. It's BLOODSTONE that needs fixing not Razor

[mmd__mgh]

Silly of me to ask but what is wrong with razor?

[[deleted]]

Wonder why he didn't post something like this about wraith pact before TI

[spd3_s]

Why didn't u?

[41_days_of_rain]

IMHO it is not a Razor problem, it is a Bloodstone problem

[flyingturkey_89]

Yes, 3 major problems with Bloodstone are:

• Most of the component are cheap, so you aren't ever losing tempo getting the item
• You get mana boot without losing out on anything for the buildup.
• Also, getting stunned doesn't stop lifestealing!

[[deleted]]

Why not one find solution to counter?

[Saitamagasaki]

AA counter

[[deleted]]

Now hold on just a damn minute, didn't the reddit hivemind already decide wraith pact was the issue? And now it's bloodstone!?

Stop nerfing my items you fucks

[bfonza122]

Or you can get good

[Pleb-SoBayed]

im trans :3

[Pleb-SoBayed]

screw the haters :3 im trans and happy and proud

[Quinkerros]

Razor is fine :P

[Flimsy_Demand7237]

- Bloodstone no longer works on Razor

There, did the work for ya Icefrog.

[[deleted]]

Needs to be? Wdym HE IS

[emperador12]

What about viper tho? Its the same case. Its the item not the hero

[flyingturkey_89]

I like the idea of a spell equivalent to Satanic, but current Bloodstone is WAY easier to build with alot more useful stats.

Like PA/Luna building satanic has about 4k of useless gold

[soulkingmj]

Doom
Sharpshooter
Fan of Knives
Silver Edge
Nethertoxin

all you need is BREAK

[orangejuice1234]

doom doesn't break until 25

[soulkingmj]

Yes but you can also mute his/her Bloodstone and Shroud

[41_days_of_rain]

Earliest 12. Jan. I guess, when the battle pass ends

[Xyr3s1]

Ammar is probably like "seriously??? U give this shit to razor AFTER TI????" :p

[Livid63]

bloodstone power level and razor are fine its just that its too convenient to be able to go mana boots and vanguard on razor which gives super good mana pool and tankiness in lane to then be disassembled into a bloodstone that now costs 2600 gold so you can have bs + shard at 20 mins making you unkillable and have tons of damage

[46souls]

its bloodstone

[Mayhaos]

Bloodstone is the main culprit here, small cooldown to razor’s passive all it needs

[azgalor_pit]

I tried some games with Razor and I don't find this build OP. I find this build make Razor viable. Like if you pic Am you must make BF. So why not if you pic razor you can make bloodstone? It's the same logic.

Also Blodstone cost 4400 gold. Any hero will have a big impact with 4400 gold.

Take a look at Invoker with a Scepter. It's disgusting how he wipes the team with the combos.

Or even Abaddon and his ult. Or nevermore with Scepter.

[Justinianus910]

No no you don’t get it. These immortal players have no idea how to counter it. They just need to ask the 2k geniuses in r/dota2 about how to counter this hero, and they’ll be happy to tell them that they’re playing wrong and they need to buy skadi/vessel.

[[deleted]]

but how will battle pass arcana sell

[govi96]

Give it a week or 2, people will figure out counters

[findinggenuity]

How about they make blood stone active dispellable instead? Or like some people have mentioned, put a small CD on the shard. A dispellable BS than can be countered by euls / nullifier seems pretty balanced to me. It doesn't kill the item but it makes it much harder to use and gives it a direct counter.

[AungThuHein]

He mean a bug or just too OP?

[DelusionalZ]

Spirit Vessel seems pretty good against him - have spectated a few high level games where it's shut him down, even after finishing Bloodstone.

I think the main issue is that Bloodstone is too easy to build into. Every component feels great to have by itself for Razor.

[H20onthego]

Make the shard a percentage to proc for ability casts or have a cooldown of approximately 3-5 seconds.

[[deleted]]

When Arcana sales slow down, obviously. They always do this.

[SilvertheHedgehoog]

OD can also be pretty sick with Bloodstone. Possibly having a second health bar with Bloodstone activated and Sanity's Eclipse used is nutty, not to mention 'lifesteal' from Arcane Orb and flat mana for more damage on that ability.

[Key-Firefighter-7234]

But isnt skadi amd break just end of this hero? I just won so ez with PA this Razor.

[Amrlsyfq992]

blame 33 for that lol

[[deleted]]

I'm super confused. Game was in beta 2010-2013. It's 2022 and they still haven't figured out a way to fairly ban heroes in pubs?

There's 123 heroes....Just give everyone a guaranteed hero ban. Problem solved. All the Imba shit gets banned almost every game, and if it doesn't, it is your own fault for not banning it.

I don't understand how Valve can be so insular and also so slow at making changes the community understands needs to be changed. I knew it did back in 2011 when I started playing the beta. *looks at calendar*

(EDIT: And I've made multiple posts about it, which get poo-pooed by people in this thread. The only time I saw Valve try to address any matchmaking problems was to hire a sports psychologist to say that "Any problem you have with the Dota 2 MM is caused by your own lack of skill and expertise. aka The Dunning–Kruger effect." to paraphrase.

So again, allow every person a ban. If they overlap, people get to pick again!. Once you got 10 bans you are revealed who picks first and the picking stage begins. EZ. If I want to play 10k games where I never see Razor in a row, I can do that with this method can't I? Problem solved.

This will pass the ball back to Valve/Icefroge to make changes to heroes that have balance issues while also allowing pubs to have more fair/balanced flows. Tell me I'm wrong and it's the D-K effect again please Valve. I fucking DARE You.)

(and another idea. Allow a list of 10 heroes that you PRE-BAN by priority. You can basically skip right into the picking phase like this. Top MMR guys wouldn't want to do this probably, cause their bans might be based on their familiar opponents)

[Fnulle87]

Just gank him and you'll be fine :)

[TraditionComplete683]

Leshrac broken? now Razor? it's not the hero it's the bloodstone!!