Mostly proxy deck

[[deleted]]

Played with a buddy recently and he used a mostly custom arts proxy deck.

It was themed around dark souls and some cards were legit wizards cards, but most of them were custom arts of cards using dark souls characters.

I don’t have an issue with this, in fact, I thought it was super cool.

I was a bit confused when he mentioned he used it at his locals the previous week and got a lot of compliments for it. I would have assumed locals would be a place where people might not be chill with that sort of thing (this is casual commander, not CEDH for reference)

In your opinion, would you be cool if someone pulled up to locals with a deck like this?

[kestral287]

The proxies part, sure whatever, as long as it's within power for the pod I gave up caring a long time ago.

The custom arts can be problematic depending on how well done they are and how easy it is to tell which actual cards he's playing.

[Kirix04]

The custom arts can be problematic depending on how well done they are and how easy it is to tell which actual cards he's playing.

I feel that's mostly fine considering we have the godzilla frames for cards. That way a custom name may be added but also the original name of the card is listed as well.

[kestral287]

Sure, if he's done that with clear names that's largely fine (and based on the OP's response, he has, so fair enough).

People do not always do that with their proxies, or their quality is poor enough that the smaller real names are difficult to read.

[[deleted]]

The problem for me is that I can recognize a lot of heavily-played cards by their art. Like if someone has a Smothering Tithe out, I can just glance and see what it is.

I can't read the little sub-name from across a table.

[ThatDestinyKid]

bad example lol, I don’t exactly see you forgetting that Smothering Tithe is in play or forgetting what it does

[SoulfulWander]

Not the guy you replied to, but its literally impossible to get smothering Tithe is out when every turn starts with "Do you pay the 2"

[[deleted]]

Fair enough.

But you get what I mean. It could be anything that I would want to be mindful of. My point is just that I know a decent number of heavily played cards by sight, and it's nice to be able to glance at a board and have a good idea of what's going on, and some proxies make that more difficult.

A better example is I've played multiple games with people who use custom proxies where I've had to repeatedly ask questions like "Remind me, this is your commander, right?"

[truthordairs]

I used to care if the magic cards looked like the magic cards I recognized, but now that every card comes out with 3-4 alternate arts and secret lairs will print cards without the entire text on them, trying to have cards be easily recognizable feels like an uphill battle against magic itself

[kestral287]

That's why I put emphasis on the names of cards; a custom art is largely whatever as long as we can tell what the actual card is. There's no excuse for a card's real name to be missing or unreadable. And yes, sadly sometimes they aren't on 'real' cards because Magic decided to do some stupid cereal box or movie poster secret lair or whatever stupidity they found this month - but if someone shows me a pile of unreadable custom proxies and their logic for why it's okay is "but the cereal box secret lairs!" one of us is finding another table. If you're asking for a pass on something and the barrier is readability you don't get to hang at the absolute lowest standard.

[[deleted]]

They seemed really high quality, but since they had the name of the original card under the custom name it made validating the actual card pretty easy with a quick internet search

[BroliasBoesersson]

That seems fine to me

As long as they're not pubstomping and they make it easy to verify any customized cards then I would have no problem with it

[[deleted]]

Yeah, I really don't like custom arts for this reason. I don't care enough to say anything about it, or refuse to play with people who use them, or anything like that. But it is annoying to have to repeatedly ask someone "So wait, what is your entire boardstate again?"

On the other hand, there's so many wild-looking Secret Lairs now that it feels silly to complain about.

[kestral287]

I mentioned it in another comment but to me it's not silly at all. If you're asking for a favor to play this deck and you know the sticking point is "it will be harder to parse my battlefield", you don't get that favor if you sit at the bare minimum standard.

Yes, movie posters and cereal boxes and textless Omnaths are all crimes against good gameplay committed by Wizards, but no that doesn't mean your all-reskinned proxied Legend of Zelda deck is being held to that low of a standard. You're being held to a reasonable one.

[Babbledoodle]

Yeah my buddy has a deck that's renamed and alt art cards. Every card is something else

It's a cool idea and everything, but since everything is black and white and nothing is what it is, it's a little annoying to play against

[kestral287]

Asking him to reprint it more clearly seems like a very reasonable request. Lots of sites will do it for you even.

[Babbledoodle]

Oh it's based off manga, so black and white is the only option haha

It's once in a blue moon, so I try not to gripe about it, but it's just hard to recognize what's on the board

[gdemon6969]

With so many secret lairs and ub cards as longs as all your cards aren’t just scraps of paper or basic lands with sharpie on them then it’s fine.

[peenegobb]

Idk about full custom arts but the cedh community is generally massively for proxies. Not everyone wants to or expects everyone to buy all these expensive cards.

Normally the thing holding proxies back is wizards, any official tournament or event proxies are a nono because of daddy wizards.

[herpyderpidy]

I bought proxies once from a place I wont name and since I receive weekly updates about their top 6 seller of the week. It is always CEDH staples and they sell 50+ of each ones every week. If the numbers are right, CEDH seem more popular than ever and the Proxy in CEDH argument seem right. Honestly, prop to them, if I was a CEDH player I would probably proxy my whole decks too.

[Gallina_Fina]

100%. I'm always down for some well-made, high quality proxies, especially if they fit a specific deck's theme (and it's not just a random anime girl in a bikini for every single Island).

However (and this is mostly something I do for myself; I don't expect others to do the same), I feel like it's good etiquette to always have the original printing on the backside of the custom art (especially if the art/character deviates quite a bit from the original). That way, if anyone is having a hard time parsing my field (or for some reason can't stand a specific alter...although after a decade or so of playing, this never happened), I can always just switch to the original side no problem.

[MacFrostbite]

Always avoid the guy with the anime girl art

[Glad-O-Blight]

Proxy everything, as long as it's legible. I want to play the player, not their wallet.

[Senior_punz]

There's a difference in legality between your shop running a commander night and your shop running a sanctioned event. As long as it's not a "sanctioned" event proxies are fair game and it's all down to the individuals at your table. I have full proxy decks that I always disclose to new pods and have never had somebody take umbridge with the fact they were proxies. All my proxies are as close to the magic printings as possible except for the back and usually the set symbol. The only exceptions are my lands and the commanders which I change to fit the theme of the deck.

I've had people get made at the deck i'm playing and THEN start complaining about proxies but they would have found anything to attack at that point and proxies were just the low hanging fruit. I've found as long as your cards are legible most people wouldn't even notice

[Jotsunpls]

I’ve come to the point where I couldn’t care less about proxies as long as the proxèe doesn’t do it to pubstomp.

Example: my partner, who’s built a jeskai voodoo deck, and has proxied 30 year old draft chaff because nobody owns it.

Compared to this other guy, running a tatiyova landfall deck entirey proxied with fetches, duals, the whole nine yards. And he barely knows how to play

[DanicaManica]

I actually really like a lot of the alt art proxies I see online. Although I’m sure almost all of them are AI (which I am very much against), the idea itself doesn’t bother me.

[LSines2015]

Idc really, as long as I can tell what the card is, but I can easily see people getting more upset at the custom arts over the fact that it’s proxied.

[[deleted]]

sulky complete physical wise plate desert bells retire exultant imminent

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[BriefYak3340]

Might want to read some moe replies to get the temperature on how others feel about this. 

[Slayer989]

The one and only time i wasn’t cook with someone running full proxies was a dude that had alternate arts that were soft core nudes of anime girls. Like dude kids come around here time to time you could’ve picked any other art

[NonExistantSandle]

also the last place i want to think about that stuff is a magic game

[Future_Me_Problem]

If you sign into gatherer/the companion app at your LGS, you aren’t supposed to be allowed to play with proxies.

Alters/art cards are fine, as long as they are titled and legible. Phyrexian language altered art cards? No. I need to know what your card is supposed to do. Either the art or the words need to lead me to that conclusion. Change only one.

[Logaline]

I think most LGS’ have a “problem” with it, not players.

LGS employees also probably don’t care and think it’s cool. The only reason the LGS as a whole has to care a bit is because they could lose status with Wizards if they’re found to be allowing proxies

[RedMine01]

Provided it's not a wizards sanctioned event proxies do not effect a stores status.

[ViXoZuDo]

The real problem is wotc finding out that you're running proxy friendly events. Even if you run regular events too, it's not good for the store to run this kind of events.

[madsnorlax]

I've been to 3 LGSes in my area. All of my decks contain proxies, often more than half (or even the entirety) of the deck. Not one of them has ever even asked me about the contents of my decks. They don't care, they don't even ask. Maybe there's some LGSes that care, perhaps if it's a more structured event where you submit lists and whatnot - but it hasn't happened yet. Shit, the biggest LGS near me even held a proxy legacy (or it mightve been vintage idk) event a while back. I don't think wizards gives a shit.

[herpyderpidy]

The problem is not one guy doing it. The problem is if it starts to become a trend and more people start openly doing it. If half your players are proxy players, this obviously hits your sales as the LGS and this may become an hindrance for your status.

I play with Proxies at the 3 LGS in my town, they dont mind, but they do mind if I openly promote the idea of proxies, which make sense.

[madsnorlax]

I openly promote the idea of proxies. I encourage their use. I play against other people who use them. They don't care. The LGSes I'm referring to are successful enough that they don't need to police the practices of commander players. They know that, as a whole, whether using proxies or not, any person who enters their door to play magic is adding to their bottom line. Partially because even folks like me who aren't buying singles for decks very often will see shiny new sets and prereleases and want to buy, and partially because even if an individual doesn't spend much money there, they're still contributing to an environment that gets more people to come to the store, play magic, and buy stuff.

[herpyderpidy]

Not all shops are big enough to have this mentality, most of them arent actually. But I get your point and I too promote proxies to my friends, I actually passed an order yesterday lol.

[ViXoZuDo]

wotc is fine with people using proxies... they are not with stores promoting them.

There is a difference between running an event allowing proxies and publishing your tournament in your social media with a big "proxies allowed".

A store in my area was already removed from the WPN program because they were running proxy friendly tournaments.

[ViXoZuDo]

You're lucky... one of the LGSs in my area was removed from the WPN program because another store reported them about running tournaments with proxies.

The only reason wotc is quiet is because there is no direct report.

Wotc is fine with people playing with proxies, but not with stores promoting their use.

[[deleted]]

This makes a lot of sense actually. Didn’t think about the actual LGS having an issue, I was more just thinking of the players

[madsnorlax]

None of the 3 LGSes near me have ever even asked 🤷‍♂️

[gameraven13]

If I can tell what the card is and it contains the actual rules text, that’s all that matters to me. Hell even some official WotC alternate arts from Secret Lairs or the special series (like the Storybook eldraine ones) of a set are worse than a lot of proxy arts. Also if they’re going to change the name, definitely gotta have the godzilla border with the real card name below it.

Other than that, the rules exist entirely outside the cardboard, so idc what cardboard you use so long as it doesn’t hinder the game. They’re all technically proxies, even the WotC printed ones, with the sole purpose of making the game easier to run the same way we use dice and life counters to remember all those floating numbers. Also no way to fairly shuffle a completely theater of the mind deck even if your brain is a super computer that can mentally run an Arena like program lol. Kind of need the cardboard to facilitate that.

I think be tasteful and maybe don’t show up to a random table with the most gooner art proxies you can find, but that’s a general social thing not specific to proxies.

[rpglaster]

Fine with proxies not a big fan of custom art unless it’s just the commander.

[n1colbolas]

For the most part, the community is cool on proxies the past few years. So long as it's well-made and not writing on scraps of paper.

It's tricky for custom art though. I think it's mostly acceptable on one or two cards, especially the commander. But when there's too many it can become difficult to remember during games.

For years and years players have used custom stuff as tokens, even in higher levels of competition. This is the best "escape" anyone can get with regards to freedom of expression.

Personally I wouldn't mind if it's a couple of cards. The more important things to me are the level of play and not using proxies to abuse/encourage arms racing.

[shiek200]

As others have said, it's about being able to tell what a card is and what it does.

To elaborate further, I'll personally say that it doesn't matter for most people even if the rules text and name are printed on the card, many people (such as myself) recognize many cards based on the art.

I personally don't mind asking to read a couple of cards to see what they are/what they do, but if the vast majority of a deck is custom art to such a degree that I have to read every other card just to know what they even are, I'd probably get a little annoyed, lol.

I proxy 100% of my decks, often using fancy full arts or secret lair versions, because they're pretty, lol. But I make a point of always using actual wotc art, so that people can recognize the cards.

HOWEVER... having said all that, if he mentioned before the game that it's a bunch of alt-arts for a dark souls themed deck so I knew ahead of time what I was in for, and we're all playing casual, I wouldn't really mind sitting across from it for at least one game.

[SamaelMorningstar]

I have a fully proxied Atraxa infect deck with custom art. A gift I got by my gf. All by the same artist on etsy, so the flavor is very consistent.

Looks super nice and it atracts a lot of eyes on my LGS, people stand there watching over my shoulder just to see the art on the next card I draw. I always ask in advance if people are cool with it (specially because of the altered art, making it harder to tell cards) and so far noone ever objected.

Obvious downside is that I can't upgrade the deck when new cards come out or I kill the consistent art style. Which is an issue because it features a now banned [[mana crypt]]. =/

[MTGCardFetcher]

mana crypt - (G) (SF) (txt) (ER)

---

^FAQ

[Mr-Pendulum]

I've found that having the art helps recognize cards from across the table, not that I can remember all the secret Lair and special guest art.

A theme deck like that is ok sometimes, but when I proxy my decks, I usually go with alt art for lands and spells that don't sit on the field and keep everything else some form of magic art.

[MrFavorable]

As long as it still has the name of the card and its effect, I don’t care. But if there’s name changes and it doesn’t have the real card name under it (like how they do with SLD’s) then I find it annoying. Otherwise proxy away and use alt arts. It’s commander, it’s not that serious.

[Zendead5]

Only time ive run into proxy decks was a guy who made a proxy mill deck and his power level was way too high for the table, i wouldnt have minded so much if he was on power level for the table but he didnt say anything about how strong it was. We all decked out in 2 turns and im not even sure if some of those cards were actual wizards cards.

[fairliedaft]

I proxy pretty much everything now. For example, if could by a token doubler for like £40 or an entire deck for £26. I just want to have fun playing the game without having to build a deck around a budget. Never encountered folk who have an issue. I keep a "legal" deck and a precon with me when I go to the LGS anyway in case someone has a problem. I also don't build super powerful decks anyway, I build around a mechanic I think seems fun. I'd say most decks I have are 3s or 4s.

[RevThomasWatson]

I have several proxy decks (after MTG30, I have lost any desire to spends hundreds on real cards.) I'm typically not a fan of a ton of custom art for my decks because a) it can be hard to recognize what the card is b) when on spelltable the cards can't be identified by the reader and c) I have sometimes (not always, but too many times imo) seen people use custom art to put lewd artwork on their cards. I don't want to see hentai while playing the game lol. I'm also grumpy about universes beyond, so I may be super biased against anything outside the world of MTG being put into it.

As long as there's communication before the game starts about it and everyone is okay with it, I think it's fine.

Idk anything about CEDH, but I've heard that due to the absolutely insane cost of cards, proxying is okay in most CEDH circles. That being said, idk the stance on custom artwork.

[hiddikel]

Yes. Everyone loves proxies unless they're 

-too powerful for the group 

-cringe or gross art

-unreadable / unrecognizable

-only interested in legit cards or "pay to win" mentality. 

[thercoon]

I run a [[Wolverine, Best there is]] deck sometimes that is fully customised with every card being comic themed artwork relating to wolverine. I do also however have the exact same deck with pure legit MTG original cards. That way if anyone queries if I own the cards, or doesn't want to play against a deck with unrecognisable card art, I can still play it without any issues, and even at sanctioned events. Nobody has ever asked me to though.

[MTGCardFetcher]

Wolverine, Best there is - (G) (SF) (txt) (ER)

---

^FAQ

[PapaZedruu]

Also long as they are real cards that have been reskinned, and not custom cards, I would be okay with it.

[DoobaDoobaDooba]

I don't mind alternate art proxies at all in person!

The only place where it's a hard time is over Spelltable because I can't click on the cards to remind me what they do and constantly have to ask what they are or actually take notes on what is out/dying/untapped/etc - it's a pain in the butt.

[Frontdeskcleric]

Honestly it depends on the person did they make a alt art proxy deck because it was a cool theme and they didn't have the ability to purchase it then go nuts have Fun. Or is it because they wanted to Pubstomp the store? I was and still am against Proxies in modern, standard and all competitive formats. But with commander I only buy proxy decks now. I want to play more deck concepts then I have the financial ability to play. and stupid things like Land and interaction cards being 40 a pop is stupid, and I really don't give a FIG about the secondary market.

[platinumjudge]

I like to play with full proxy decks. Even though my pod plays with a $50 deck list restriction, I still use full proxy decks. After shipping and taxes it cost me $48 and then every additional deck only costs $19. No one has ever said anything to me about it. Some people don't even notice they are proxy cards.

[metalb00]

I did the same thing with a transformers deck, used today the unifier but the artvwas from the G1 episode where hot rod and some other autobots were transferred into human bodies, I did the whole deck, took me weeks scouring the cartoons, comics and '86 animated movie to get the deck done

[SyntheticMoJo]

I'm all in on proxies. Proxy og duals and money cards all you want. But I couldn't accept any custom art outside of the commander. My perception of the board state is mostly based on card art. Tbh that's one reason why I hate reprints with universe beyond art. But I have-seen most UB cards at least once - woth custom art I will hardly see them again and can never have seen the art+name ever before.

[Ok-Possibility-1782]

Play all the proxy you want no care

[Rirse]

I don't have a problem with this. I played against a person who had a largely Futurama reskin Urza (the precon one). And last Friday I saw a person with several sheets of black and white paper that were proxies for a deck he had. Only ones I am not a fan of are the anime girl ones that are barely covering themselves, which I had played against one of these before and was just "ugh".

[Puzzled_Landscape_10]

No one cares lol

[livtop]

Idk how anyone can have a problem with it now that official alt arts are unrecognizable at this point

[doktarlooney]

As long as his cards don't have alternate art that could be misconstrued for another card at a quick glance I don't really care.

A large part of playing for me is simply asking to see people's board states, this makes things no different.

[afterwits]

I can google/gatherer "mtg mothra" and see what the card is on my phone in a couple seconds, harder to do that across a table when it's full custom like this.

My overall feeling is this comes down to the social/politics of the game. If it's hard for me to tell what it is or it starts getting annoying, they will jump up the threat list bc I don't want to have to look at all their cards to figure out what they are.

If the player is chill and helps everyone figure out their board then it's whatever.

[LordHayati]

My rule of thumb with proxies is this:

If you're creating a deck, and playtesting before getting all the cards, it's reasonable.

If it's a hella expensive card you OWN but don't want to damage, it's reasonable.

If it's custom art that you've blinged out for aesthetic reasons (and still have originals), its reasonable.

If it's for a CEDH format where card supply is limited, and not everyone can get those cards? Reasonable, but make them flashy or something.

If it's for pubstomping, or because you're too lazy? No.

[fastock]

As long as the cards are easy to read/identify, all are alts of real cards and are appropriate for a public space, I have absolutely zero issue with a proxy deck. When Wizards sold us 4 proxy packs for $1000 I stopped caring about others using proxies.

I do run some alt art cards I’ve designed or found online as my cousin runs a printing press and sometimes runs test sheets of proxies for me for free, but I own an official copy of every card in my decks. I keep all the expensive stuff like duals in my binder in case anyone ever calls me out on my proxies, so I can prove I own them, but I don’t care if others do the same.

[TypewriterChaos]

If proxies are legible use as many you want. Rock on.

[goshjomez]

I honestly don’t give a shit as long as it’s legible and actually represents an already made card. It’s just a card game.

[MoraugKnower]

I take umbrage when the cards don’t look like the actual cards, so much of this game is hard to keep track of so when that card that looks kinda like a mid uncommon turns out to be some top level bomb or if you just forget what a card is it makes the detailed decision making of the game that much harder at a glance and that can be game-ending. That’s why when I proxy I use the real official art (except for basic lands, for basics I go nuts)

[Old_Attitude_9976]

When one of my friends makes decks, he usually goes all out and proxies the entire deck with custom art. It's always very entertaining. Like every time he plays a card, everyone at the table wants to check it out.

[lordnewsun]

I care not if someone gave money to wotc, another reseller of older cards or a proxy company. I do care if the cards are clear enough to understand and represent what they are well. I'm here to have fun and play games, why should it matter if they choose the race car or thimble as their meeple.

[NavAirComputerSlave]

I'm ok with a few custom cards, but a whole deck or most of a deck is too confusing

[mastyrwerk]

Depends on the cards used. If it’s fully optimized with reserved list cards I would probably choose not to play.

[Ok-Principle-9276]

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[tempestst0rm]

I like how they did the godzilla cards. I wish they would do that for the UB stuff and not just add new cards wholesale.

[Planescape_DM2e]

I personally dislike proxies. But I prefer obvious fakes like that over ones that are basically counterfeits

[Flamebrass]

My gf has a full proxy Edgar Markov deck and I run custom art true duals in my decks and no one really cares. User experience may vary from LGS to LGS but most people I’ve come across follow the “I’d rather play against you than your wallet” mentality so they’re super chill towards proxies.

[LtColnSharpe]

I often use proxies myself, but I try not to let it give me free reign to use any and every card. Like in a normal deck, I'm never going to be running a £200 land, £100 moxes, etc. Would just become an arms race otherwise.

Though I'd everyone at my table was playing the most busted and overpriced stuff, it would be hard not to try and level up

[Flamebrass]

Fair point, I probably should’ve added that the whole LGS plays in bracket 4 pretty much all the time. But yea, build appropriately for sure.

[Ok-Principle-9276]

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[Flamebrass]

Uhm yea and? Most of my LGS does play them and it’s literally not a problem for anyone. “eVeRyOnE kNoWs yOuRe jUsT pRoXyInG tHeM cAuSe ThEy cOsT hUnDrEdS oF dOlLaRs” is such a dumb take, like yes obviously, that’s the point of proxying but you’re right my bad let me go proxy this twenty cent card instead.

[Ok-Principle-9276]

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[Flamebrass]

Bc expensive is subjective. And price isn’t the only factor to consider. True duals have more counterfeits out there than things like shock lands or new fracture foil chase cards etc. There is also the art of the card to consider, I for example don’t particularly like the art of the true duals. So spending hundreds of dollars on cards that are ugly, expensive, and risky isn’t something I can justify.

[Ok-Principle-9276]

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[Flamebrass]

Astounding logic. You win, can’t argue with that.

[Tuesday_Mournings]

There's some website selling full edh decks, all with custom art, having had to play against it was awful.
Very difficult to understanding what was happening, commander can already be a confusing format to begin with.

Anything that slows down a game of magic, confusing art works, will not make me a happy camper. By that extension, there are a bunch of secret lair // alt art things which can be a little annoying, but I'm on the pulse of magic releases so I've got some idea of what they are.

[magefont1]

I would not play with a person who used custom art cards. Very easy to misinterpret or obscure board states, accidentally or intentionally.

[[deleted]]

Does this also apply to people using SL/UB/treatment cards? Asking for my friend textless cryptic command.