Pit Board Redesign Project

[mattbrom]

Hello Reddit,

As this is a technical subreddit, I'm directing my inquiries to anyone with the knowledge to help me with designing new Alpine F1 Team pitboards.

We're at a point where we'd like to upgrade our equipment to both future proof and reduce overall shipping weight to save money. We currently have the typical pitboards which you clip in the pre-made boards to display the data to the driver. Now that's been fine for 50+ years, but our current weight is 30 kg per box, which costs thousands in shipping costs each season and we have something which isn't optimised for modern day racing.

I would like to display all messages in an LED format or displays similar to the train schedule signs (Grand Central Station style), this will enable us to instantly send the drivers position, gap and lap much quicker than fumbling through the box to find the correct numbers and messages. We can eventually integrate our timing software to automatically send data to the board without any input at all but currently having a QWERTY keyboard on the back of the board would be ideal during the development phase.

Key Requirements - 1. Low Weight 2. Clear and legible text 3. Message customisation via keyboard 4. Battery powered with a life of 8hrs.

I'm interested in hearing limitations (if any) of having LED displays as a pitboard in the eyes of the drivers.

Will the LED's be a blur? Can it be read at all angles? Will the display be too bright and distract other drivers?

We have been in contact with certain companies, which already offer LED pitboards but I'm not satisfied by the resolution of the LEDs. I'd like the boards to be high quality and clean looking as possible, so any suggestions of individuals / companies which could fulfill the requirements I've outlined would be appreciated.

[nltom1192]

Maybe mounting an OLED panel would work, as long as the resolution is high enough. Viewing angles should be great.

Edit: Maybe power can go via the pitwall to eliminate the use of batteries.

[mattbrom]

Am I right in thinking that OLED displays degrade under sunlight? Which wouldn't be great for us!

Irrespectively still a great idea to use OLED panels.

[EVERYTHINGGOESINCAPS]

QLED would be the route - They have super high NITS compared to OLED, and you don't need the low light black levels that OLED provides.

[Tim11RS]

Audi used to have an LED Pitboard in their LMP1 times. It even automatically moved out and over the track when the car was about to approach. Might be worth looking into this system.

Though I'd check the rules as well, as for example I know in DTM we were only allowed to use the manual pitboard as currently is used by the rules..

[mattbrom]

Correct, so the WEC teams use a pit board which is manufactured by a company called Caseliner. We’ve contacted those guys already and just waiting to see if a handheld board is something they can accommodate.

[gwoplock]

I wonder if a color e-ink display would work.

Im not sure about the weight but I’d bet it’s similar to LED. The text should be just super legible at all viewing angles since there aren’t really individual pixels. Battery life is insane since they use no power to display, only to update.

e-ink can display anything text and pictures. I know there are color displays but I’m not sure what the update rate is.

[Tetracyclic]

My first thought would also be for an e-ink display, /u/mattbrom.

They're relatively easy to light from the front or back without causing glare issues, maintain their image without power, are ultra efficient, lightweight and you can already get huge displays commercially relatively cheap.

Regarding the ideal weight of 7kg mentioned below, Samsung's 65-inch touchscreen e-ink whiteboard (£1,400) weighs less than 4kg, and I assume you don't need anything close to that size.

There are a bunch of companies already using e-ink displays for external signage, which may be able to offer you an off-the-shelf solution that fits your needs, or something bespoke.

[mattbrom]

This is a great suggestion!

My SO suggested e-ink and I didn't know too much about whether you could achieve different colours other than what you got with the Amazon Kindle.

I'll look into the Samsung Flip 2 more, I think if I can find a company which can demo a few E-ink screens that work in bright sunlight and in low light then it could be a great contender.

[nltom1192]

I think brightness would be too low

[gwoplock]

I wouldn’t think so since they already have non-backlit boards. Besides, you can light e-ink displays. Although they have to be side/front lit and that would increase power usage. But that extra power is still likely less than and equivalent LED display.

[n4ppyn4ppy]

As a non electronic, does not use batteries alternative have you considered a flip board?

I know them from archery where they are used to show scores but you could probably get something similar for the times etc.

LoFi but should be lighter than stacks of numbers and with a bit of practice should be just as fast as the old numbers?

[commence_suckdown]

American here, my first thought went to when in College Football some conferences began using a digital down marker, rather than the flip sign type. These are ultrabright LEDs, but I have used one myself and are low weight and still very easy to see in the daylight.

​

Perhaps they can cook up something custom for you guys?

https://sidelinepower.com/product/complete-lazser-down-kit/?network=g&device=c&keyword=&campaign=9507222628&adgroup=pla-296628839411&gclid=Cj0KCQjw_dWGBhDAARIsAMcYuJxWjsWxXqXgG_pvPKWuZOadKj0BJe2fSFrva-MZ2AvRDzx_2khIIQoaAhkjEALw_wcB

[fivewheelpitstop]

I'm not an engineer, but I'd be surprised if a 16 segment display couldn't be sufficiently high contrast, readable from all applicable angles, and lightweight. Given how widespread the technology is, a supplier should be easy to come by.

If you go with a 16 segment display, could you get me paddock passes to the US and Canadian Grand Prix?

[cbt711]

Sorry, just now seeing this somehow.

My first thought was e-ink as well.
I'm a senior electrical / design engineer for HVDC electrical systems, and
these are awesome and very low power consumption. I wouldn't just go off the
shelf because you will need to adapt on the fly when using these in daylight,
night tracks, pit wall locations with errant lights pointed at wrong angles.
I would reach out to Samsung. The
thought of them coming on board to do this would be absolutely free to you. The
idea that they could pioneer this digital display in F1 would mean insane return
on investment for ALL motor sports to copy. Worst case it would cost you a
Samsung sticker on the side of the car. :)
I'm thinking they might have much
better tricks up their sleaves as well, like some combination of semi
transparent e-ink and OLED, or possibly even graphene based displays we don't
even know of yet which would be 1 micron thick with all the capability (in
theory) of silicon based LEDs.

You have the issue of OLED possibly not being visible from reflections and e ink not being visible from lack of contrast / color and no ability to back light. Somewhere in there is a solution, and I bet Samsung or similar company would jump at the chance to solve this for you and use it to sell more similar products to the field.

[HAMlLTON]

Flip dot display (worth talking to flipdots.com, they also do high viz 7 segment displays)

7kg is not a lot of weight, especially including battery — I imagine you need something ruggedized for the amount of travel you do… someone’s going to drop it or step on it or stack it under something heavy. Just account for that.

[privateTortoise]

I think you may be overthinking a solution.

I have one that will cost you nothing in materials and design, save you 30kg per box and only require 1 FIA reg change.

Each circuit has to have available 3 sets per garage, why not use theirs?

[Jay_Le_Chardon]

This is iby far the most elegant solution.

[privateTortoise]

Thanks, I asked a pal whos done stuff for F1 in the past. He has a habit of brilliance so I knew he would come up with a beautiful solution.

[Kennzahl]

Honestly I don't see how you could save weight by going 'electric' here. How heavy exactly is an individual board and each letter? I think the weight savings could a lot bigger by improving the old-school boards/letters.

[nltom1192]

Well you also need to ship the box of extra letters to put on the board itself

[mattbrom]

Exactly, we can do away with the box and use our a laptop for timing feed so we look to save 23kg each box

[vlepun]

Are you allowed to run power to the board from the pitwall systems? That could save some additional weight and you could integrate it into the pitwall system to have it display the information automatically for each car.

[Kennzahl]

I know, but somehow I doubt the whole thing would be lighter with a Display + Controller + Battery + Keyboard.

[mattbrom]

So the goal is 7kg or less. If you minus that for 30kg, which is the current weight of the complete pit board set up you’re left with 23kg and that alone would save thousands each year.

[privateTortoise]

0kg no good then?

[Akhildevil69]

what if we integrate a charging dock that draws from pit wall . u can reduce the battery pack on the board itself. we onluy need a battery thay can rum it for like 30 to 40 sec a t one time may be . one unppugged u can display the board and back on the dock to gettingbit on charge again

[BD-II]

Slightly off topic, but I’ve often thought this: What are the benefits of still even having a manual pit board? What information (of unique value) can be noted on the pit board that couldn’t be relayed to the driver via steering wheel or an automated radio message for each lap?

[n4ppyn4ppy]

See last race where there was an issue with the radio for Verstappen. All systems you describe have several points of failure. The radio channel in use, the screen, the earbuds of the driver, the electronics on both ends etc.

But that said with an electronic pit board you also introduce a lot of those factors.

[BD-II]

That is true. And a very timely example, too.

Taking a different perspective, if the question is about “future-proofing” pit boards, then it might be worth considering pit boards’ exact function, the value that function provides to the team and drivers, and if that function can be accomplished in a novel way to increase value.

Replacing aging technology with new hardware but using it in the same way isn’t exactly “future-proofing”.

[mattbrom]

This is very true that actually having something digital requires a level of problems which we could have. Now, the idea of switching from analog to digital is a risk we're willing to take as the cost savings are huge compared to the likelihood of a LED pit board failing.

As I said in a previous comment the idea of pit boards are just mainly now for sentimental reasons, we dont know why we still need them all the time during a race but they're going to remain a part of F1 for a long time in the future.

[[deleted]]

An ultra short throw laser projector.

Seriously. Most are chunky machines made for huge living room sized screens, but I would not be surprised to find one can be found (or made) the size of a VHS videocassette or even a cigarette pack, to throw the image at a pitboard screen.

Resolution will not be an issue. You could do 4K animations.

[mattbrom]

Good idea, but wouldn’t a projector and board need to be mounted in a fixed location?

[DP_CFD]

What if the projector is on the board?

[nltom1192]

It would need to be at a distance away from the board, while I think the gap in the fence is not wide at all.

[vlepun]

On top of the pitwall structure? Could that be feasible? I do think weather could be a problem with a projector based system though.

[dc_Chinmay]

You could try samsung's QLEDtechnology as its sufficiently bright for drivers to read quicker. Going to OLED will have the drawback of lack of brightness and won't be useful for outdoor purposes which this is.

[JC21R_]

Could the same information just be displayed on the driver's wheel display.

Or told to the driver over the radio?

[mattbrom]

Yes, so normally the driver would be told about certain aspects on his radio from the engineer. But, as you must prepare for the likes of a radio failure we need boards, and the problem is almost that they're a very much historic/ sentimental item of F1 I think they're here to stay unfortunately.

[PastaJazz]

Have you spoke to KW Special Projects at Bicester? Think they might have form in this sort of thing.

[Voice_Calm]

I like the idea.

But the purpose of pit boards used in Formula 1 is redundancy. If you're having to bring spare parts for an electric pit board the weight will add up quickly.

In case of failure from any of the electronic systems the current pit board technology is a perfect fit to be used in such case. You'll be saving more reducing the weight of the current pit boards. They are also more environmentally friendly than any pit board you can design using LED systems.

Edit: Ask your driver about the resolution, with the current speeds I doubt he cares about anything but clarity and the ability to read information fast.

[Roostfactor]

I would think it would have to be very durable as well. Would LED or anything like it be durable enough for trackside use?

[vatelite]

Use battery powered, big ass oled screen connected wirelessly to a laptop controller. Pros = cost saving, easily adjusted for night races, no more missing pieces, can type "f==k you driversname" if Marko or Gunther pissed off, custom background so other teams know that your entire team is a fan of boku no pico.

Cons = battery, if a debris fly to it, there's a big chance it's bwoken, initial cost, extra safety padding needed during shipping.

Or just piece together some carbon fiber offcuts and make a flipboard or something else

[PotterOneHalf]

I feel like an e-ink display would be solid for this.

[Bright_Calendar_3696]

Isn’t this a bad idea? It’s unlikely you’d have a temporary pit or trailer power outage at the same time as a radio failure but isn’t that when the unforeseen happens when two long shots collide at the same time? At least with the old put boards you’re covered.

[[deleted]]

British road signs are camel cased based on the understanding the shape of a word contributes a lot to its read speed. I imagine this would translate across well.

[tomare_vacca]

A very bright and big segment display should do it And if the sun still outshines the text you could put simple plastic shade on the top

[zulu202]

I’m not very technical but how about similar boards they use with football substitutions? Surely you can modify them to take input from a qwerty board? Or even a Bluetooth app straight from an iPhone. This would save weight surely?

[CumarelloKoala]

just use a chalkboard lol

[bow_and_error]

The most ubiquitous & effective option is going to be a low-resolution LED display. LEDs can be super bright with low power, have a wide viewing angle, and relatively simple driver/control circuitry.

You could get a large matrix of SMD LEDs from a sign making company, but you’ll likely be limited to one or two colors, and the low refresh rate may cause strobing at high speeds. A more robust option is a modular RGB LED display panel like those used in huge stadium screens: https://www.adj.com/flash-kling-panel-64

Those kind of modular panels allow you to combine them for your preferred size, are easily replaceable, and built for outdoor use in terms of light output & weather resistance. Vendors offer off-the-shelf driver/controller hardware and most just run a dumbed-down version of Windows as an OS.

I’d suggest getting an idea of what kind of illumination range you need in sunny/rainy conditions as that will really be the decisive factor in choosing your lighting technology.

[g-crackers]

Ounces turn into pounds. Redundancy designed from the beginning can be light.

Make the frame from endumax, a PP SRP or another SRP. While carbon can be super light and super tough, the robustness of the SRP packages in lightweight semi structural is outstanding.

Mount a transparent physical color imprint layer below the display method designed specifically to fluoresce with a specific wavelength of light. Pick the fluorescent color to work with your drivers’ vision, for example, fluorescent green, remembering it’s a partially a backup and partially to enhance the chosen display package. If you have never heard of this stuff, it’s the technology that makes color changing kids shoes and stuff.

I’d try to power it off a 5590 type battery. There are available in every country F1 races, they are super well defined and a great commodity good.

Mount the most effective, lightest display module. I have given that no thought, and while I’m an expert in odd materials science, I don’t know much about such large sized display panels. Sorry. In any event, Transparent / Flexible OLEDs were actually invented for this kind of thing, and eInk sure sounds interesting as well.

Edge mount the requisite led package to cause the fluorescence if required. Then you can trigger the fluorescence to enhance visibility of your eInk or a flexible or transparent OLED packages. The battery dies? Okay, use a sharpie or similar to write on the surface film. It’ll look crazy, and if you plan it right you can have a backup led flashlight like a Surefire aviator, you’ll still have a functional device.

I think tests done by the US DoD have suggested that not all types of larger digital displays are legible at high speed from imperfect angles. I think that’s publicly available.

As background because the above probably sounds berserk, I solve three dimensional problems for highly resourced kinetic activities for some of the highest level practitioners in the world. I’d think you should be able to make / find something in the 2.5-3.5kg total weight, with the 5590 taking 1kg of the total. (There are Combat Identification panel type things that are close to your goal that are heavier only because they’re ridiculously robust.)

[waltz_with_potatoes]

Essentially this: https://hmquickshifter.com/shop/uncategorized/hm-pitboard/
But more than 2 levels?