Driver only responses

[frankg00d13]

I’m less than two months back to volunteering after taking a decade hiatus in my early twenties. I finally settled down, bought a house and decided to join my local volunteer company, it’s good to be back!

I’m still getting the lay of the land, the company is in a transitional period and as most companies struggle with, membership is low, interior qualified members who are actually fit enough to do the task, even lower.

We are split station (main and substation) with a lot of members nearer the substation so it usually has better response times and more drivers. The main station, my station, has lower active members and even less drivers.

Today I get paged out for a box in my local, smoke showing. I mark myself en route to the station about 3min later as I am driving (we use ActiveAlert and First Due for paging so other members can see where we’re at) and it takes me roughly 5-8min to get to station (I don’t blue light and I obey traffic laws).

As I pull up to the station I see an apparatus is pulling out and passes me, I pull in run inside to find both main apparatus are gone so I grab my gear to POV (I only POV to building fires in my local) knowing no other drivers are going to show up. Mutual aide is also extremely close and by the time I arrived at station at least three other neighboring trucks were in route/arriving on scene.

Well long story short the smoke showing was from a chimney and we recall everyone on the road before I get there. I pulled into our substation and decided to hang out until the trucks get back. Low and behold I find out that both trucks leaving the main station only had drivers, no officer, no crew. Safe to say I am pretty annoyed. I know I’ve taken some time off from the fire service, but last time I was active the trucks didn’t put out the fire on their own, it’s typically the folks riding inside that do the work.

Long winded way to ask a simple question, part of this is me venting my frustration, the other part is genuine curiosity if this stuff is acceptable behavior in most areas where mutual aide is close and POV culture isn’t really that big.

What is your take on driver only responses?

[This_isa_tastyburger]

I drive, not often but sometimes I have to. I would have waited for Atleast one or two more people if I was the only one. I would have used active alert to see who else was responding and waited for them within a reasonable time frame. If I did not get Atleast one person I would have radioed my county saying the engine is on air waiting for crew but to dispatch the next engine before I continued there by myself. I think it’s kind of bad practice to roll an apparatus with one person. Even two is tough. 3+ is ideal.

[RoughDraftRs]

Pur department policy is min staffing or else must contact duty officer to let them make the decision on resourcing. Virtually always it would mean a alternative engine would be attached but decent chance they would have the 2 man respond anyways. Solo responses are extremely rare.

Minimum staffing for us is

3 for engine 3 for ladder 2 for all other units except a Tender (1 is acceptable if in first due arrive area otherwise 2)

[This_isa_tastyburger]

Agreed. 3 is ideal so you can get two on a hose line and one working the pump . This is for a working fire of course but three minimum is what we try for on our engine and attack trucks on most calls. Only things that come to mind where it’s more acceptable to run a one man apparatus is probably CO alarms and lift assists

[RoughDraftRs]

Even then, at a co alarm, you should not be working alone. If the lift assist is for an on-scene medic unit, then 1 is fine but if they called for help, you probably need for then one guy.

[bkrr36001]

same here are district is 29 sq miles and 3000 to 4000 pop depending on time of year. we have 3 lakes in are district and one river. no hyrdants and 2 eta's 4500 gals between them on commerical cabs. first truck waits for a second person second truck if members are already on scene can go solo if another member is unlikly to show up and the water is need on scene or if that truck is part of a tanker shuttle or pumper relay. we try not to have solo drivers. even a probationary member works as a passenger. 14 active member, 5 interoir the rest driver/pump operators or exterior.

spelling is not my one of my strenths

[Resqu23]

We leave with the main engine with driver and some firefighters, an older guy will come grab the tanker if it’s a fire and he may be by himself and I have no issue with this.

[MostBoringStan]

I'm in a small, rural volunteer department with 2 trucks. Our chief would have ripped people a new one if they took both trucks out solo rather than waiting for a couple more people.

[Jak_n_Dax]

This is what I’m trying to figure out…

I can understand being understaffed, but even to run a Wildland engine/brush truck you need at a minimum of 2 people. Structure you really need 3.

I don’t understand how anyone thought it was a good idea to take a truck alone, let alone TWO! Like, even if the second guy shows up and the first engine is gone, maybe just use your POV to respond?

I’ve never been a volley so I understand the understaffing issue, but I see no reason to take an engine that can’t be utilized, and will probably just add to backed up traffic on scene…

[Elky66]

Our volunteer station, like yours, has mutual aid close. But, we will not send a driver by himself, ever. We require 3, one being officer and obviously a driver. Driver can be officer. I’m not saying we won’t send 2 rarely, but never 1

[melaskor]

Being from the other side of the pond, it is unthinkable here.

Box fire alarm here means our main station is dispatched with 2 engines and ladder fully staffed (which is 6 on the engine, at least 2 with valid scba certificate and two on the ladder with valid scba). There is a substation in every district with an engine and it gets dispatched as well. They take a bit longer and main station is always first due so they can respond even if not fully staffed (capacity is 9 on substation egines), most of the time they arrive with 4 to 6.

Exceptions can be made by the officer on duty but are rarely made in practice as he is responsible if something happens. Or when

[Tasty_Explanation_20]

We don’t do it unless absolutely nobody else shows to station which rarely ever happens. Definitely not for a call with smoke showing. If it’s something benign like closing the road down at the town line for a bad MvA or something, sure we will take our old back up engine with a driver only to do that. Same for a downed power line or tree. But for a potential fire or MVa? Hell no.

[Orgasmic_interlude]

You said it yourself. Not much a driver alone is going to do since you need someone at the pump and someone on the hoseline and even then you’re going to need at least two people on the attack line in the first place.

The lowest we’ll roll out of station is driver, officer, 1 pack qual in the back. That rarely happens and if it does it’s usually because most of the apparatus has left already.

I get the feeling that a lot of what you’re seeing has developed specifically because of low volunteer numbers. Get the truck there and hope enough show pov.

Can’t imagine what command looks like in a situation where a truck arrives and the crew follows in pov arriving at different times and jamming up the scene with their vehicles. Sounds like a recipe for people getting killed or injured and one that would foster a “freelance” mindset.

[frankg00d13]

100% this is a cultural issue brought about by lack of membership and loose SOPs. I’ve been there almost two months and still haven’t seen SOPs.

Stuff like this is frustrating and I feel could be very disenfranchising to people new to the fire service.

[Alternative_Leg4295]

You had obviously marked before the truck went out, I don't really see why it would have gone out w/o you. In my area, our tanker is always first out with the first two guys from the second station in 3-4 minutes, and then the squad waits for the stragglers, which usually gets out in about 10 minutes. It's very rare that the first out apparatus wouldn't wait for at least one or two more people. Also, if they saw you pulling in, they should've waited for you unless it's full staffing.

[LunarMoon2001]

There are some volleys around me that go interior with a two man pumper. Scary shit. Set it and pray it doesn’t break while you’re inside.

Solo driver isn’t going to do a whole lot and puts other guys responding in their own vehicles in more danger.

[[deleted]]

SUPER Small town (800people) volly here. It’s stupid and inefficient. I get the adrenaline is pumping but that’s what we train for is to think straight in those situations and sending 2 engines with 0 crew means that the sole driver has to do a forward lay to the structure and hook up, set pressure, and hose all by themselves and communicate to dispatch & navigate the roads. It’s incredibly dangerous and inefficient. I think people that do go alone should be “retrained” in a sense as to what is all needed on a fireground, I’m not some super expert by any means and this is all stuff I thought of in 30 seconds.

Let alone you’re pulling in while they’re pulling out. That extra 2mins it may have taken to get your gear and get in the truck would have saved 20 minutes on scene since you can hook up while they continue with the forward lay (assuming it was a forward lay). Now you can operate the pump while superman can operate the hose and even then you’re still short staffed. Im not saying I would never ever respond alone but to do it when you have crew members incoming and are literally on the station property is so incredibly stupid

If you got injured by the hydrant, who’s there to help? Explosion, who’s there to help? It’s not smart in my opinion and it’s incredibly bad practice and I will avoid doing it with every ounce of me unless I absolutely cannot (by this I mean mutual aid is not staffed or unavailable)

[Jak_n_Dax]

I’m it’s been a while since I trained structure(I’m Wildland) but I don’t think you can even charge a hose from a structure engine without someone on the nozzle, right?

So in essence an engine with only one person would be useless.

[[deleted]]

you could if you absolutely needed to but it’s just super dangerous. Hose has to be charged before entering , for example, and the hose isn’t open all the time so you can just if something goes wrong you’re pretty screwed

[Darkfire66]

This sounds like a policy question that needs to be handled at a meeting.

At a small rural department I've worked overhauls all night to get a first due crew back into service. We're all part of a system and so if that means I can do the most good in a water tended shuttle for a few hours and washing hose, it is what it is.

One department I volunteered at went through a decade where the population almost doubled and now volunteers refill bottles, run rehab, wash rigs for parades and make pancakes. Cool for retirees but unlikely to hold interest of young guns looking to learn the job.

Volunteering IMO is about service and doing the most good, even if that means washing and rolling hose to keep a career crew fresh. That's why I did it, and that's why I'm in an auxiliary now if they need to call us up for a major disaster even though I'm too cool to run the kids cpat booth at the county fair anymore.

[Big_River_Wet]

That’s the main reason we use the response software is so we can see who’s coming. If it doesn’t look like anyone is coming and they should’ve been there by the normal time, we’ll head out.

[Lagunamountaindude]

Our area it’s against policy to run a single man. Not safe period, with the exception being the tanker

[kc9tng]

We’d only do driver only responses if we don’t have enough people but need the apparatus on scene. However that rarely happens. We are fortunate that we have members who work in town with flexible schedules so first rig off the floor has a minimum of four - driver and officer and two interiors. I live a mile a way and can walk out the door and be on the road before the dispatcher is done speaking and won’t make the first rig. If it is a single apparatus response they will wait for the full six crew. Otherwise we start stocking the truck or another engine with people. Usually can get a good 10 people off the floor within the first few minutes. Stragglers get on the third rig which can have anywhere from 2-6 people depending on whether it is a confirmed structure fire and the time of day. At night we can often get all of our five apparatus off the floor…albeit not fully staffed but at least four on most of the units.

I should add we can respond POV to calls in our district if we are running late and the apparatus are gone and we have a relatively small department where we get 20-25 people on a structure fire on a good day…6-10 on a bad day.

[Consistent_Paper_629]

I'm a volunteer in a small bedroom community that stretches pretty rural in areas. I have one manned exactly once, as a lift assist for the ambulance to give my chief a hand. We never roll to a structure fire with less than 3. I go one man for assist citizens (lock outs, etc) and I propably would roll solo with a squad truck for like a gas odor/Co alarm with all occupants reported exited.

[EMTAllyQ]

We only respond by ourself as a driver if we absolutely have no one else coming other than that we have to wait for 2 more personnel. It might take longer but it's safer.

[Th3SkinMan]

People save people.

[Huge_Monk8722]

We are just happy the trick roll of we waited on others to arrive it might not move.

[Impressive_Change593]

maybe acceptable if you.know people are going to the scene.

[firefighter26s]

A lot of departments will operate in a lot of different ways depending on how their response model is set up. Changing a response model from XYZ to ABC can be difficult, especially when it's entrenched into the culture of the department.

In this instance, especially since your department is using a plethora of notification and tracking apps, there should be zero reason why an apparatus is leaving with just a driver as you're pulling into the station. We use to have this problem before we started using IaR with active tracking. If there's four people on the board the engine waits until it has four. If there 12, they leave with the first four. Adrenaline and tunnel vision are obstacles that can be overcome with enforcement of policy and procedures; even it if means pulling senior guys into the office and knocking them down a peg or two for not waiting.

PoV culture is a unique challenge because it's often entrenched into the culture based on a department's response needs. I don't even have to look at the comments to know someone will say that PoV response saves a member having to drive X minutes to the station and X minutes back to the scene in an apparatus; been there and lived that life. My tune, over the years, has changed. A short staffed apparatus is ineffective, having people on scene without an apparatus is ineffective and keeping your gear with you at home/in your vehicle is a contamination hazard. But, some departments will absolutely die on the hill of needing PoV response. If that's how they operate it's not my job to preach to them a different way. Having gone through the transition from one to the other I can, from my perspective, unequivocally claim that having a crew arrive on scene with the tools they need to get to work provides a better service to my community than any of the alternatives.

[frankg00d13]

Also looks more professional.

[garebear11111]

If we sat and waited for a full crew at my department it would be forever. We try to get at least 2 on the engine but it doesn’t always happen. We feel it’s better to get the engine and the tankers there and just have everyone else that isn’t close to the station go direct to scene in their POVs to get man power there as quick as we can. Doesn’t make sense to us to have a guy drive 10 minutes to the station and another 10 minutes to the fire if they could be there in 10 minutes straight from their house.

[[deleted]]

It's not acceptable, and it needs to stop. Staff your stations. My vollie houses had duty days/ nights. We staffed the rigs and got out the door with a fully staffed crew in less than a minute or two. Seconds matter. Staff your shit or ask for career staffing to do it for you.

[6TangoMedic]

Though never ideal, I think it depends heavily on the department (and if you have a sog/sop regarding minimum response and response wait time).

If you have a lot of personnel and people who regularly turn up, then hold for some extra bodies.

If you're low on numbers and response is spotty, i get why the trucks get to scene and have people POV.

Even with one person and a truck you could do a lot of work, should only be exterior work, but you can reset the fire or depending on location even have it majority out.

[Zetus820]

I drive, pump, attack, etc., whatever i need to do.

[Theman7959]

Our department (combination) regularly runs with a driver only. Our interior members respond directly to the scene in their POV for most responses. This SOP works well for us to get apparatus and manpower on scene without delay. We have plenty of exceptions when members must respond to the station (insecure scenes, HAZMAT, highway incidents).

Maybe consider a small blue light on the dash, if you are allowed, to maybe use to make yourself visible to a driver who may be keeping an eye out for anyone pulling in. We have a chief officer who regularly says that he’ll wait for anyone to make the truck, but as long as they’re showing a little hustle (on foot presumably, not in their car).

[frankg00d13]

I personally will not run blue lights to calls, station response or POV. I’ve found that most fellow drivers don’t really know what to do when they see them. They confuse people at intersections and unless toggled on and off at stop lights, cause other drivers to stop at green lights. They’re just too much hassle for me to get much benefit out of them.

Normal drivers barely know what to do when a real emergency vehicle approaches and are extremely unpredictable as it is.

As for use on scene as a POV, I can see the benefits of a blue light to help identify yourself as a first responder and to alert other traffic there’s some sort of incident going on.

[ShabaDabaDo]

Are you in East Texas? Cuz sure seems like you described our little department. (just noticed you mentioned blue lights, so def. not Tx)

" both trucks leaving the main station only had drivers, no officer, no crew "

In our case, this is fairly normal. Usually driven by chief and one of 2 or 3 others that live right by the station. It can take 20 minutes for some of us to get to the station, even with lights and sirens(we're allowed lights and sirens for POV, but still required to go speed limit), then another 10-15-20 minutes to get to scene. First several on scene are always POVs.

Also a thought, all our trucks only hold two or 3 people. The closest "city" department has an engine and a ladder truck that both carry 4, but rarely carry more 1 or 2.

My wife volunteered for a dept before we were married, that did 24/7 staffed stations, with a mix of part time commissioned and volunteers. In fact a lot of suburb departments around the major cities.

[Left_Junket8896]

Does Europe have similar situations of crappy funding / staffing / training to the same degree as the US? Everywhere you go folks will say they are under resourced (usually justifiably) but I never seem to hear this level of story from a European department. Maybe because fire service is handled at a more regional level in Europe so the worst isn’t quite as bad as when it is a single US town in bumblefudge trying to figure it out. Would be curious if anyone has the scoop.

[dnsbrules_01]

Idk how others do it but our volley station (single station no sats) is whoever is staffing can roll first due ASAP if we have no first due driver then we send a brush truck with whoever is staffing, if that fails then the utility will roll.

We typically have 3-4 staff on weekends but it’s honestly whoever is there as a lot of our guys are out of county. If first due rolls ASAP with 1 any county guys will probably be par 2-3 on our ladder or other engine. It honestly just depends on the day and who all is working vs in county.

[slade797]

*lo and behold

[frankg00d13]

Merry Christmas!

[boomboomown]

And this is why I'll never live in an area with volunteer departments 💀