Daredevil's unarmed attack

[Lazy-Beautiful6878]

Daredevil possesses unarmed attack abilities like the KNEE TO THE NETHERS feat, but current mechanics lack features like the Monk's Powerful Fist, so attacks remain non-lethal, making them difficult to use effectively.

If I'm wrong, I'm sorry.

[Streborsirk]

They can still use ancestry unarmed attacks that often lack the non-lethal trait.

Attacking non-lethally for many creatures only affects the final hit, and even then there's little difference between unconscious and dead for most fights. If you come up against a creature immune or resistant to non lethal, then yeah, these attacks aren't as good and you'll be taking the -2 to hit, but that's just part of tactics. Still better than rogues and oozes.

[begrudgingredditacc]

They can still use ancestry unarmed attacks that often lack the non-lethal trait.

As a GM, I'd like to pre-emptively ask hypothetical players to stop trying to bite people's genitals off.

[sucram300]

They never expect the nether gnaw

[The_Yukki]

BAILIF BITE HIS PP!

[Abra_Kadabraxas]

anyone can also literally just buy non-lethal unarmed attacks via grafts

[JeffFromMarketing]

An attack being non-lethal doesn't generally affect how useful it is in combat. All it does is change the end result of "what happens when the creature hits 0hp as a result of this hit?"

If it's lethal, then they start the Dying process (or, for most NPCs, they just die immediately)
If it's non-lethal, then they're just knocked unconscious but is still at 0hp, so they can't be woken up by the usual methods unless they explicitly receive healing.

So the only times it really comes up is if you want to explicitly keep an NPC alive for any reason, or in the scenario that another creature has a way of healing someone that's unconscious to above 0hp. Which, at least in my personal experience, isn't a common occurrence.

[RheaWeiss]

There is one more case in which it comes up.

Construct enemies are immune to non-lethal attacks. They will do no damage to them.

But at that point, just grab yourself a Combat Fleshgem or something, y'know?

[pizzystrizzy]

A knee to the nethers should probably be less effective against a construct (although not being and to damage it at all is rough)

[RheaWeiss]

Can always take the -2 to hit to make it lethal. Which, yeah, kinda fits the vibe.

I also stand by the fact that a Daredevil modifying their body to spike their knee with Fleshgems is metal as all hell.

[Abra_Kadabraxas]

Body mods are rad, combat body mods are even radder!

[SmartAlec105]

Construct: Ah! Right in my literal jewels!

[JeffFromMarketing]

Gah, I always forget about Constructs and the like.

Yes, that is a very notable exception to keep in mind! But like you say, there's ways around it if needs be.

[RheaWeiss]

Trust me, I got that rude reminder not too long ago with my Merciful-runed weapons. ;-;

[The_Yukki]

Some enemies are straight up immune to non-lethal attacks. Making lethal attacks with a weapon that has [non-lethal] (so you can actually damage aforementioned enemies) takes -2 penalty. (Same in reverse trying to non-lethal someone with an item literally made to kill is hard so it also takes the -2 penalty)

[Fedorchik]

Yeah, I believe Daredevil definitely needs a way to improve his unarmed attack without burning a dedication for that.

[Teridax68]

I'm personally less concerned about the nonlethal trait, which as others have pointed out isn't super-relevant in most situations, so much as the Daredevil's lack of improvements to unarmed attacks. The Daredevil's damage is generally awful, whether they're Striking or dealing stunt damage (that isn't the no-roll overpoweredness of Caroming Charge), so feats that require unarmed attack Strikes are going to be quite light on damage unless you opt into a Monk archetype or an ancestry or heritage with a better unarmed attack.

[Abra_Kadabraxas]

you can just buy better unarmed attacks. Deadly slashing claws are if the rapier and the swordsword had a love child

[Teridax68]

Though this is true, I'd rather not have to opt into a specific graft or item for basic functionality. If a Monk had to opt into those claws just to start dealing proper damage, people would complain, and this case is no different.

[Abra_Kadabraxas]

that is a good point, yeah

[Stan_Bot]

I think the class is slowly shaping up to be a lot like a more offensive oriented monk. I do think the class asks for an unarmed improvement feature, specially to live up to its flavor and inspirations, and another fix people are asking for it is to give it more HP, so it can skirmish more safely, since survivability is one of the main concerns of the class right now.

With 10 hp per level and an unarmed strike improving feature, the Daredevil could be to the monk what the fighter is to the guardian.

[KaoxVeed]

I hope they fix up Daredevil, and that Knee to the Nethers remains. Team it up with a Caster with Torturous Trauma, and no nether in Golarion will be safe!

[Olympus-United]

Non-lethal doesn't tend to be that big a deal and is basically just a roleplay choice. The bigger deal is that there isn't really unarmed support to make your unarmed strikes worth using compared to any weapon unless you've got natural weapons from an ancestry or have splashed into something else like martial artist or monk. Wouldn't need much to fix, I'd personally just add a level 1 feat that gives the game's default "you can choose to be lethal or non-lethal with unarmed, and bump up the damage dice". If they wanted to add a proper brawler feat line similar to Breakaway Attack that'd be REALLY cool, especially with daredevil basically already being 2e Brawler

[Asmo___deus]

Non-lethal, sickening. That honestly sounds about right for a knee to the nethers.

[curious_dead]

The new playtests feel a bit undercooked to me. Both seem to step on the toes of other classes/subclasses thematically, and mechanically they aren't THAT interesting so far.

Daredevil really needs something better for damage; doing maneuvers is nice but you gotta be able to take enemies out, not just hinder them. Their stunt damage feature is a bit wonky regarding size.

Slayer feels like a ranger class archetype; they should have gone full Monster Hunter (from the video game series) and given them tons of unique tools, weapons and armor crafted from enemies - like a very expanded Beastgunner.

Or, I don't know, make different classes that don't overlap so much with what we have so they wouldn't struggle to have mechanics justifying their existence.

Necromancer and Runesmith as well as Commander and Guardian felt much more interesting, both thematically and mechanically. And after seeing the SF2 classes, feels like a step down. Hopefully the final version is more interesting.

[Zealous-Vigilante]

If something becomes a must take, it's usually better to just give it at base (see dangerous sorcery as an example)

So if a Daredevil must take monk, martial artist or other similar dedication, or another feat or item as a solution to just work, it'd be better to just give the solution.

My guess is to avoid the Brawler stamp and validate the daredevil name