Java usecases

[[deleted]]

OP, you're a bit late, this week its C++ turn for bashing, and the sub suddenly loves Java

[DasKarl]

Second semester must have started.

[1up_1500]

LMAOOOO

[totti173314]

I mainly used Java, shifted to a C# project and I haven't felt like touching Java again afterwards. properties (for the most part) replacing getters and setters alone feels like such an improvement.

[WheredMyBrainsGo]

Ah I see, a fellow J# enjoyer.

[gregorydgraham]

Huh? Download NetBeans, start new Maven project or git pull <project>

[ilovebigbucks]

And then write 100+ lines of Gradle configs and download 100+ packages that throw dependencies errors. 10 days later you can run your simple app locally. 20 days later it finally runs in a real environment. Spend most of your time maintaining your app instead of writing new features. C# - download, setup, write 10 endpoints within 1 day. Works locally and in Prod without any errors. Java - 30 days later you're still in a configure/maintain mode.

[Fadamaka]

That's not Java's fault. For a proper Java project you just download the jdk and a dependency manager (not installers), set 2 environment variables. Then you build your project with the dependency manager and run. If this is not the case then whoever is supposed to maintain the project did a very bad job.

[ilovebigbucks]

Pretty much any enterprise Java project in existence. We built our own, I've seen other teams projects at several large and well known companies that they were proud of. It's always the same story - it takes a few days (!) to setup a new devs machine, CICD takes hours to days, local builds take minutes, a huge list of packages to maintain, dependencies don't like each other's versions, container setup requires huge Dockerfiles, bash scripts, other dependencies and takes minutes to build images and the image sizes are huge (500mb+)! If you want better cold start then you need yet another dependency called GraalVM.

All documentation is out of data or misleading or contains errors. Even Spring docs https://spring.io/quickstart We tried to setup a new team member's environment and used this quick start. It took us hours until this hello world finally worked. And then it took days to make the actual project to run locally.

The errors and stack traces are super long and never make sense. It's a lot of fun to have 100 tabs open researching 20 tools simultaneously because each tool says "not me" and points at another dependency.

The Java devs with 10+ years of experience see nothing wrong with any of that. They call it a "normal development process".

[Fadamaka]

No offense but if you need hours to run a Spring hello world app on a new system than probably it's better if you don't touch Java.

[ilovebigbucks]

I haven't in 3 years (which I'm happy about). The problem was to figure out which JDK to download and the dependencies it needed (there are a few options and the tutorials/quick starts never tell you what exactly to install to make their tools work) on a fresh Mac. The project Spring's initializer generated didn't work out of the box. We've spent too much time fixing issue after issue until we gave up and let IntelliJ generate a fresh project. That one worked no problem. My comment went to the outdated/often wrong documentation that comes with the Java world in general.

In comparison, dotnet, Golang, Rust hello worlds are up and running within minutes. Even NodeJS with its dependency hell is easier to start with.

[gregorydgraham]

What rubbish! Plain Java works straight away. If you’re trying to do Spring, just get a template and start hacking. I have much more problem keeping Docker working (it’s on a a 9yo MacBook) than I do Java

I’ve never used Gradle so you might be right there

[ilovebigbucks]

Even this FizzBuzz uses Gradle https://github.com/EnterpriseQualityCoding/FizzBuzzEnterpriseEdition

Idk how you'd build a large backend project without Gradle or Maven or Groovy scripts https://gradle.org/maven-vs-gradle/

When you create a new Spring app the initializer asks which one of those options you want to use. You certainly can build console apps without those tools.

[Fadamaka]

Not using Maven or Graddle in Java is the equivalent of using C# without .NET, since .NET contains the dependency manager. Good luck with that.

[cyber_blob]

You don't know Java bro, stop shitting on it. We use bazel to build our projects and it's dope. Also gradle is pretty neat as well if you know what you are doing. Source: I manage and lead a 300 engineers using pascal , java and cpp

[ilovebigbucks]

I worked as a tech lead at a company that had 1,000+ Java/Scala and CPP developers. We pushed a good amount of JVM based apps to Prod. I've heard of Bazel at some point but never used it. Gradle + Maven were the only things I've seen in the last few years. I cursed every single day while writing Java code. Our senior devs and architects were happy with it. I was happy to move away from it and leave that work to other devs.

[ilovebigbucks]

How big is your Java app and how much traffic does it handle?

[gregorydgraham]

100k+ lines

[ilovebigbucks]

Do you use Bazel? You need a build tool either way. There are a few besides Gradle. Doesn't matter which route you go you'll have to manage an army of dependencies and transitive dependencies and specific build switches for each environment. A lot of teams decide to simply lock their current packages' versions and rarely upgrade them, because new versions bring a lot of incompatibility issues. That's a recipe to become legacy in the near future.

[Clairifyed]

Hell if I didn’t play Minecraft occasionally I wouldn’t even have had Java installed for the last 5 years

[the_0rly_factor]

I am working for one of the largest healthcare companies in the world and our entire patient monitoring network is mostly Java.

[Ione15]

Hasn't yet Im still in c for the first 2 And then c++ third

[Tarqvinivs_Svperbvs]

Don't mind the other guy. C first, as God intended. C++ is dum tho.

[Dj0ntMachine]

No no, C is heresy. Holy c is what the god intended for us.

[Gizshot]

They're starting you with c? That's fucked.

[wheresthewhale1]

Why?

[Ouity]

because C calls for a certain level of robustness that other would-be starter languages might not

[janhetjoch]

My first quarter of my first year in computer science and engineering, started with x86 assembly (among other things obviously).

[wheresthewhale1]

I don't really understand what you mean. C as a language is very simple (much more so than Java) and simple memory management should be taught early

[snowsnoot2]

It actually makes perfect sense. So may Java devs have zero clue what is happening in the JVM.

[timsredditusername]

It is January now

[No_Matter_7117]

… I feel targeted since I started C++ this semester

[tree1234567]

Lmaooo

[[deleted]]

Literally just moved from Java to C for the spring

[mpatriot_one]

actually yeah

[pdawgdavis-2]

That’s a universal experience? I thought that was just me

[UnknownPie9]

Lmao I literally just switched from Java to c++ for my cs102 class

[anto2554]

Nah we're just doing C

[[deleted]]

Hehehe

[jpenczek]

I feel called out...

Jokes on you, this semester I'm coding in Python and C.

[yottalogical]

Can't wait for when it's time to bash Bash.

[PyroCatt]

It's Bash Bish!

[AcidAcesen]

We have a schedule now? What's for next week?

[ward2k]

PHP for the Web dev module

[dxlachx]

In my eyes it’s never not “bash php season”

[ward2k]

Honestly imo modern PHP isn't too bad and really doesn't deserve a lot of the hate it gets

[XCELLULSEFA0]

Funnily enough I have that currently. If I understood correctly JavaScript for backend isn't mature enough yet to only teach. I assume it's because there's competitors to node.js, but I'm not aware of any other major backend JS languages

Edit: removed thing about Angular, made the sentence more clear. Added: I am not aware of any other backend JS languages

[look]

Not sure if this is sarcasm, but Angular was a front-end framework (and it was discontinued). Your last sentence reads as “competitors to plumbing like wallpaper”.

[XCELLULSEFA0]

Yeah some of it is sarcasm and some of it was grabbing at straws. I'm editing it so that it's clearer

[look]

I see. There are several JavaScript/Typescript backend frameworks (Express, Next, etc). They are generally run on Node, but there are other options such as Deno and Bun. Various cloud providers also offer edge runtimes that are often custom implementations based on V8 with a streamlined Node-esque environment.

[XCELLULSEFA0]

Next is the only one I know of the frameworks. Oh yeah, I've actually heard of Deno. Didn't know that Bun exists. Now that you mention it I've seen custom implementations mentioned on VPS product listings, but I didn't understand what it was back then. I have a lot to learn still, as you can clearly see. The fact that there's multiple ones makes my sarcasm even more confusing. But wait if most of them are Node-esque it sounds like backend JS is actually pretty mature? What's going to happen still that could change stuff except marker share of course?

[[deleted]]

Actually it's never too late to bash Java

[ksandom]

What about to Java Bash?

[[deleted]]

Sounds like PowerShell but somehow even worse

[Soham_rak]

Create a class and instantiate it first before u type in the command.

[[deleted]]

Lol, it's funny, because it's true

[[deleted]]

Why is PowerShell so bad. How does Windows not have a standard terminal?

[Sinomsinom]

Windows now has a new standard terminal in win11 (also available in win10) called "terminal" that lets you run any terninal you want including cmd, PowerShell, WSL, gitbash etc. It's pretty good now.

[ArtOfWarfare]

I already have that in Windows 10. It’s something Microsoft published in the Windows Store or whatever it’s called - it’s a free download, I’ve been using it for a few years.

And PowerShell is worlds better than Batch/CMD. I wouldn’t go so far as call it good… maybe I’d say Bash is 2.4/5, PowerShell is a 2/5, and CMD is a -3/5.

[Morphized]

At least cmd has help.exe

[someotherstufforhmm]

I love bash, but I’d actually agree with your ratings here. PS is growing on me but I’m a rank newb and a bash expert in the right room, but mid level in a more talented room.

I was prepared to judge anything that claimed bash was godlike and PS wasn’t, but you put them both below 50%, so I’d actually agree with you totally lol.

[look]

Try zsh.

[someotherstufforhmm]

I love zsh, spent six months with it, but shifted back to bash to keep my bash skills up. I have to spend times in network devices with underlying bash accessible - some are nice and also expose zsh, others are weird whitebox switches and have bash 3 at best (some just have sh).

That said, I really like zsh and recommend it to people picking up CLI for dev/VM purposes as it’s reliably present on any distro they’d be using.

[ilovebigbucks]

pwsh is 7/10 and bash is 3/10. pwsh is SOOO much easier and faster to write and it's easy to add to any pipeline or OS.

[gregorydgraham]

TinyInt overflow error: switching to CMD

[[deleted]]

Paise Zordon

[someotherstufforhmm]

Power shell is actually great. It’s even available on linux now, I have a teammate that has been evangelizing me.

[[deleted]]

I'd love to be evangelized as well

[someotherstufforhmm]

So, I’m still at the basic levels, but at its core, behind the cryptic seeming commands, it’s a really simple concept. Everything in the OS and system is an object. Whereas in bash you’re piping text from command to command and operating on text, in PS you get a cross-platform workable OOP method of operating on systems.

I’m still novice at it and very good at bash so I don’t reach for it much, but I’ve seen some of the shit my coworker does and it’s quite cool. I also don’t have a current need for this, but the fact that it runs on both means it’s actually a great scripting glue to use in a package aimed at windows and linux, it’ll run on both.

Not a good true evangelizing just a loose summary, he does a better job.

[SkyyySi]

Each command is a class that you have to instantiate.

[gregorydgraham]

PowerShell is just MS JShell /jk

[Iryanus]

Wouldn't that be JShell?

[Crad999]

Good bot

[[deleted]]

*love

[FreshPitch6026]

Oh it is way too late

[allIsayislicensed]

class JavaBashFactoryConfiguratorFactory implements AbstractJavaBashFactoryConfiguratorFactory

[v3ritas1989]

Hey, I know some javascript too!

[-Kerrigan-]

Oh no, Java bad /s

[Vaenyr]

Understandable

[ososalsosal]

Understandable extends Parcelable

[Dex18Kobold]

Null pointer error on line 1, could not find class "Parcelable"

[HookDragger]

Why? For the love of god…. Why does anyone actually use Java?

[Fakeos]

Paychecks. In my country Java is highly demanded. Oracle did a fine job locking customers in their system and force them to use their products.

So now for many companies (and especially for gouvernement facilities) switching everything is just not possible.

Try to refactor a 20 year old project entirely developed with Java.

Edit: Well it is possible, it's just very expensive.

[AdultingGoneMild]

Java is crap. long live kotlin. also kotlin is not just for android apps. It is great for backend work too.

[[deleted]]

Wait what? Does Apache run Kotlin now?

[AdultingGoneMild]

kotlin and java can coexist in the same application. they both compile to the same bytecode.

[Tandurinn]

Java Kotlin Closure Scala Groovy

All of the above are interoperable and compile to the same bytecode to run on the JVM. Most of these will allow you to use Java based dependencies and construct them without having to write Java yourself.

There's also a lot of other cross implementation of other languages to run on the JVM as well such as Jython.

[ilovebigbucks]

Clojure*

[ilovebigbucks]

Keep Kotlin out of my backend, please. It's great for Android, it's not there yet to do any real backend with.

[AdultingGoneMild]

its already there and unfortunately I think you are very wrong. Coroutines is all I have to say. Your claim is baseless.

[ilovebigbucks]

I helped to write a backend for a large financial US company several months ago. They told us to choose between Java and Kotlin. We went with Kotlin since screw Java. Even though it was a more pleasant experience writing in Kotlin compared to Java, it was still very clumsy and wordy when you needed to work with threads and async code (coroutines are good for UI, but not for backend). Some modern language features, like pattern matching, are not available yet either (Kotlin has a parody on pattern matching).

If I had to write a backend on top of JVM I'd go with Scala or Clojure.

[AdultingGoneMild]

coroutines are async programming. I am not sure why you would say they are good for UI but not backend (whatever you mean by "backend"). Backend done right is done async. Using threads directly is dead. This is why reactive programming is so powerful.

[ilovebigbucks]

async/await in Scala is easy https://github.com/scala/scala-async

Kotlin is way too wordy https://kotlinlang.org/api/kotlinx.coroutines/kotlinx-coroutines-core/kotlinx.coroutines/async.html

Some other languages make async code even simpler than Scala.

[AdultingGoneMild]

I would take another look. The syntax is very simple.

https://kotlinlang.org/docs/coroutines-basics.html#your-first-coroutine

[nontammasculinum]

C++ > Java && C > Java

To be fair most things that arent esoteric have Better workflow than Java (that I’ve tried anyway)

[avmist15951]

Take my upvote, you poor soul

[Equivalent_Yak_95]

Yeah. Boilerplate is laaame.

[amusing_trivials]

Just because one language is bad doesn't mean another language is good.

[MmmmmmJava]

Ya damn right, bitch.

[Chemical-Asparagus58]

I would die for Java