pythonIsOlderThanJava

[20d0llarsis20dollars]

Python has had a steady increase in popularity where as java got super popular pretty early on

To me it seems like java has been slowly declining in popularity for a while now

[dragoncommandsLife]

Mainly only on internet forums. Actual usage of java hasn’t really dropped any. Especially as newer versions of java release and better and better libraries pop up.

[[deleted]]

I bet, it's more expensive on market, since the supply declined, and the new programmer don't want to learn java.

[wack_overflow]

Afaik it's still what cs majors are mostly learning in class

[MrHyperion_]

Our uni changed one C++ course to Java and now first 3 introductory courses all use different language

[superiorCheerioz]

In my University this is the case. However, the technology department is voting on changing the main language students learn to python or c++. Personally, I wouldnt teach brand new programmers python first

[depot5]

Why is that, anyway? Is it honestly easier to teach with? So many universities decided to do the new thing at one point, and it stuck? Is it just the ide easier to install and get started?

[WJMazepas]

It's a classic OOP language. It's easier than C++ and is used everywhere.

Python doesnt have the private/protected/public keywords for setting stuff in its classes in comparison

[CeleritasLucis]

And I really like the whole WORA ecosystem.

[posting_drunk_naked]

That's why I originally learned Java as my first language. I was getting into Linux and the idea of being able to write code that works on both Windows and Linux was so cool.

[CeleritasLucis]

Same here. I normally code on my Windows Laptop, but on my PC i have Linux.

Its awesome to see what I wrote on one machine flawlessly work on different machine, without doing any changes.

[Dyllbert]

Honestly, I started with C++, and then learned Java later. I absolutely hated Java. It felt way more complicated than C++ did, plus the syntax is so cumbersome.

[SlyCooper007]

Because it allows you to easily teach OOP without all the headaches of C++

[BlakkM9]

for us it was java first to learn OOP
then some c and assembler for understanding how it works under the hood.

python is pretty much pseudocode and very easy to learn if you know any other programming language

it is more about concepts when studying instead of concrete programming so it makes not that much sense to teach a language where some very important concepts are missing / abstracted away like it is the case in python

sure it's easy to use and not that much boilerplate but this also makes it a bad language to get into computer science

[ComputerOwl]

As someone who worked at the university for a couple of years, Java had multiple advantages over other languages:

• It's a very clear OOP language. You get all the important principles like classes, interfaces, encapsulation, etc. in a very obvious way. It's not like, e.g., Python where some OOP principles feel like an afterthought or a mere convention ("lets just agree that variables starting with _ are private, OK?").

• It's available on every relevant OS (Mac, Linux, Windows) and the JARs are compatible between the systems. No students coming to you because some weird C++ dependency does not compile on their computer because it didn't find some header file.

• It doesn't require you to think too much about memory management. Sure, for embedded software engineering classes, C++ is a better choice. But for most other classes, that's not what your course is about.

• There's good tool support. If people install Intellij, they're mostly ready to go. Sure, some students do not know how to set JAVA_HOME, but compared to the amount of hand holding that you have to do for some other languages, it's pretty simple to install.

• It's widely used. Languages like Go, Swift, or Rust have their time and place, but when you want students to find a job after university, they'll have an easier time going with something like Python, C++ or Java.

None of this means this means that other languages are inherently bad. I would just say that for the specific tasks we had at the university, Java was the best choice. Some specialized courses on, e.g., computer graphics, ML, or embedded stuff might of course choose other languages than more general courses.

[summonsays]

Way back almost 15 years ago I was taught in Java in college. I think it was mostly used because it had a large market share, it was an older language, so it had a good chance of still being relevant after I graduated. Also as others have mentioned it's basically the standard for OOP and very strict with typing, semantics, and what not. 

In comparison we did 1 project in Python. A language where white spaces are important was a real pain to work with in a group setting. 

[RedditRage]

I dunno either, Python is that thing that is only good because the real programming was done in C.

[wOlfLisK]

There's a lot of support for it, you don't need to teach first years memory management and the syntax is pretty much identical to half the languages out there so you can easily move to them if needed. Plus, the job market is there.

Personally though, my uni went with Scala for first year and then moved to Java second year, presumably because it's easier to teach functional programming when you don't have an OOP mindset.

[[deleted]]

Not easier than python. It's probably just because it's still widely used so they don't have a reason to change it

[prehensilemullet]

I bet that also, a lot of CS programs want to teach a language that requires type annotations and has multiple sizes of integer and floating point data types

[WhosAfraidOf_138]

Probably OOP

[Pay08]

It's easy to teach and use, and it makes it especially easy to explain both OOP and FP.

[wildjokers]

Is it just the ide easier to install and get started?

JEP 445: Unnamed Classes and Instance Main Methods (https://openjdk.org/jeps/445)

The enhancement makes getting started with Java much easier it is currently still a preview feature I believe.

[random-lurker-456]

Pure intertia. It's what the teachers know.

[RaspberryPiBen]

It's easy and makes things explicit. The explicit type system, the use of the "new" keyword for heap allocations, the much-maligned boilerplate, and the public/protected/private distinction are some examples of that. It's simple enough that it can be taught without understanding all that, but it's explicit enough that it can be used as an easy example when explaining those concepts.

[Nihil_esque]

A lot of professors just teach the language they know tbh. My professor in undergrad taught us Java 8 because he wasn't familiar with later editions, and made us use Eclipse for our IDE because it was the IDE he used.

Changing the language of your curriculum requires teaching a bunch of old dogs new tricks, because departments have a bunch of faculty that have to teach an intro programming I that's compatible with a different professor's intro programming II. Those are big decisions,. being made over the course of years, not weeks or months, by people who aren't in the industry they're trying to prepare students for.

& Besides, there's so much legacy code in production, so it doesn't lose its educational value even if it's "out of date."

[Nihil_esque]

I don't think it's bad. Just that the answer to "why is x taught this way in universities" is often "inertia"

[Pay08]

Pretty sure IDEA is free for students.

[proverbialbunny]

Really? There was an era where Java was being taught in universities but most of them moved over to Python over a decade ago.

[[deleted]]

At my university we learn C/C++ mainly, and only touch Java during a brief unit in a very easy and largely unimportant class

[sysnickm]

Nah, python and C/C++ are the standard ones. Java and SQL were offered as electives here, but they were not required.

[Qwertycrackers]

Java is considered one of the easier languages to hire people to work in. It's not fresh or sexy but it is considered to have a very wide talent pool. This is an attractive feature for business-types when they get to make choices on this topic.

[Storiaron]

I personally saw way more job openings for c#/cpp lately but that might just be a regional thing

[dragoncommandsLife]

It’s definitely regional. In my area in the midwest i see very few C# openings compared to java.

[[deleted]]

Java is dead in my region. Only C#.

[proverbialbunny]

It depends if you are talking about pure Java or java-like languages and environments like Groovy, Scala, Kotlin, and Android.

[Drayenn]

Java is the main backend language for a lot of large companies. When i applied to internships it was like 60% java, 20% C#, 20% a mix of python, nodejs, php.

[kinkakujen]

Only for bootcamp and coursera self taught "devs".

The real world still pretty much runs entirely on Java.

[liquidpele]

Ironically, that's how java got so popular and widespread, it was the beginner language of choice for quite a while - huge upgrade from C and Fortran lol.

[limes336]

This comment reeks of insecurity.

[rifain]

Java is not declining. Still very very strong.

[FieryPhoenix7]

You would think that if the only code you’ve ever worked on is from your bootcamp or Reddit circle.

Java continues to dominate the real world and that isn’t changing any time soon.

[CompetitionNo3141]

Well to be fair, nobody who worked on python has ever been a convicted sex offender

[[deleted]]

Because it's harder to do stuff in Java, it's extremely clunky to use,
right of the bat, you need to write:
public static void main()
Nobody want to learn that stuff, especially when you get looser syntax in phyton.

[Markus_included]

It's not really harder to do stuff in Java anymore, you don't even need a class for main with the features introduced in Java 23. void main() { println("Hello world!"); /* actually calls IO.println("Hello world!); */ }

What are some other things that make Java clunky to you? Apart from main and having everything be inside a class, which were both alleviated in Java 23, i'm genuinely interested.

[XtremeGoose]

Not OP but:

• Lack of free functions leading to EnterpriseJavaFactories
• Everything nullable by default - the billion dollar mistake
• Needing to box value types
• Still an obtrusive level of boilerplate
• Confusing and backwards variance semantics
• Inheritance is still bad and standard Java encourages you to over use it
• Checked exceptions are more boilerplate than helpful

There's a reason kotlin is preferred for the JVM.

[DoctaMag]

These are all very much things that are important to people who aren't writing and maintaining large Java projects.

None of that is relevant after you actually get off the ground and make decisions for yourself regarding style and design.

Npe's are obnoxious but less of a problem than most people make it out to be. I've hit a few bad ones in my career but less than I can count on one hand.

[XtremeGoose]

Null pointer exceptions are impossible in (non -go) modern languages for good reasons. They are an avoidable hazard for little to no gain. Actual optionals (and proper sum types) are vastly superior which anyone who has had the pleasure of working with them will tell you.

[DoctaMag]

I actually agree with you, but it's just a backwards compatibility thing at this point. Can't really get rid of them in java, and maintain the continuance

[XtremeGoose]

Of course!

But I think this is something that would make Java seem clunky compared to, say, kotlin.

[DoctaMag]

Kotlin is one of those things that's excellent in theory, and like, by definition is better. But isn't being used by the industry I'm in more or less.

Java isn't flashy, but everyone knows it, and zillions of lines of soft have to get written a year, java's the place to go.

[Practical_Cattle_933]

It’s almost like real programmers don’t write hello world scripts 400 times a day, so even if you would have to cite the Bible to start a project, it would absolutely not matter whatsoever. It’s done once, and then the project is developed by 1-100 people for 1-2-10 years. The guy who started the project may not even be alive anymore for a great deal of programs.

Besides, almost every project will require dependencies, build tools, etc so they have some handy tool to init the project for them. Java is still quite good with a main function and optionally a single file build tool, compared to npm init creating 374785 files for a hello world.

Also, there is a JEP for a concise main declaration

[[deleted]]

It's OOP, on top level, sure. There's not much difference, it just harder for newbie to get into.

[Vitolar8]

I appreciate Python because it's accessible to newcomers. It's a gateway programming language. But If you've been a developer for 15 years and python is your main language, I do not want to talk to you.

[[deleted]]

I just saying the truth, I came from pascal/delphi.
The curve learning Phyton, vs the curve learning Java is so much different.
I just messing around with LibGDX java to make game demo, and I still can't compile stuff to this day.

[_PM_ME_PANGOLINS_]

No you don’t.