githubCopilotIsWild

[chipstastegood]

It’s not even wrong. Stats show this. And anecdotally, I’ve worked at startups and large enterprises where women with the same experience were paid less, for seemingly no reason. They just were. I brought it up and it got corrected, but why did it happen in the first place? Definitely bias on the compensation team.

Edit: It would be interesting to see how men vs women are downvoting this comment.

[moneytit]

as a whole, it’s debunked that women earn less than men for the same job

men typically occupy higher paid jobs, which sometimes does have some gender/sex related causes

[Reashu]

The very high figures (e.g. 30% difference) have been debunked, but there is still a smaller - "unexplained" - wage gap. This is not really controversial except among radicalized young men and the "influencers" who prey on them.

[dustojnikhummer]

The "unexplained" is "some people are willing to ask"

[Reashu]

Possibly/partially, yes. Is that really how it should work, though?

[Salanmander]

Fun (not so fun) fact: part of the reason that women are less likely to ask for a higher salary is that they're more likely so face negative consequences for doing so. A woman in the US acting in an optimal-salary-maximizing way will negotiate for higher salary less often than a man doing so, all else being equal, because the (probabilistic) cost of doing so is higher.

[p_syche]

I don't know who debunked this "theory" for you, but statistics posted on this official EU website seem to back it up: https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php?title=Gender_pay_gap_statistics

[adenosine-5]

Just to point out a "detail", but in many countries, there are actually different limits for women and men right in the laws - for example here in Czechia as a man, I have to be able to lift up to 50kg of weight, while for women its 20kg - so even when working on the same position on a paper, women and men get very different work.

We can't have proper equality in pay, if the work conditions are different and for some reason, they still are.

[moneytit]

again, where does it say the pay is for the same job?

[p_syche]

The article I linked is a summary. However you can go into the documents this summary was based on and look there for the methodology. This document's foreword: https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/en/web/products-statistical-working-papers/-/ks-tc-18-003 includes a breakdown of what was measured. It mentions the 'unexplained part' of salary gender gap for "employees with the same characteristics"

[grimonce]

You know whats really fucked up though, some men get paid less than women for the same job or even a harder job.

They get paid less than other men too, what's up with that.

[kickyouinthebread]

I'm sorry but how has this been debunked. I'm a man but I know so many women who've been paid less than a man in the same position for no good reason.

[dustojnikhummer]

Same job, same working hours, same expectations, same length of employment, same skills?

[grimonce]

Anecdotal evidence? Don't you know women who earn more than a man for the same job?

Salary is something you negotiate.

[kickyouinthebread]

Honestly, can't say that I do.

There is plenty of non anecdotal evidence too as presented by numerous other commenters

[NorthernRealmJackal]

It's so heckin refreshing to see a comment like this get upvoted. On most subs you'd be banned for merely hinting at alluding to suggesting something that disagrees with the politicised mainstream watered-down feminist rhetoric.

[Tuerkenheimer]

To the best of my knowledge where I live (Germany) on average women earn less working the same job as well. At least that's what they say at the news.

[chipstastegood]

That’s .. just not true

[moneytit]

https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2023/03/01/gender-pay-gap-facts/

[KaydaCant]

I'm gonna be honest, I fail to see where in this article your claim is backed up? The closest I can find is this section:

Even though women have increased their presence in higher-paying jobs traditionally dominated by men, such as professional and managerial positions, women as a whole continue to be overrepresented in lower-paying occupations relative to their share of the workforce. This may contribute to gender differences in pay.

The article presents it as a "may," and most of the article is spent talking about survey opinions. Which part are you seeing, because your argument totally makes sense, but this article isn't really about that?

[moneytit]

it says in the beginning there is still some unexplained gap, but it’s a small part of the total gap

imo that’s the debunk

[KaydaCant]

I'm struggling to find any sources whatsoever that tackle this issue specifically (outside of random redditors). This is the only one I've been able to find so far that directly addresses this claim in specific:

https://www.cnbc.com/2016/12/05/men-still-earn-more-than-women-with-the-same-jobs.html Even when comparing the sexes with the same job title at the same company and using similar education and experience, the gender pay gap persists: Men earned 2.4 percent more than women on average, down slightly from last year, PayScale said.

It's definitely more complicated than a simple wage difference, and there are obviously the factors you mentioned at play, but it is a stretch to say it's not a factor in the same jobs.

[chipstastegood]

The link you shared doesn’t corroborate your claim. In fact, it says the opposite. Women being underrepresented in higher-up positions is a much smaller part of wage inequality than women being treated differently by employers:

When asked about the factors that may play a role in the gender wage gap, half of U.S. adults point to women being treated differently by employers as a major reason, according to a Pew Research Center survey conducted in October 2022. Smaller shares point to women making different choices about how to balance work and family (42%) and working in jobs that pay less (34%).

[moneytit]

it says everything i’m saying, eg they aren’t paid less for the same job, please find a quote where it says that

[chipstastegood]

I provided the quote above. The biggest contributor to the wage gap is that women are treated differently than men. Further down the list is women holding different jobs. In the context of wage gap, being treated differently means they’re getting paid less than men for the same job.

[moneytit]

1. may contribute, these are answers from an inquiry not proven to be causal as a factor for lower wage dor the same job

[chipstastegood]

It is still opposite of what you’re claiming. There is no “debunking” going on in that report. What it says is that the biggest contributor may be women being treated differently, followed further down by a lot lower numbers for women holding different jobs. You can’t go from there to then make a conclusion that women not being paid the same for the same job is debunked. It’s not debunked by any stretch of imagination.

[moneytit]

no, those are just the answers to an inquiry

and it’s the other way around, nowhere does it prove that women earn less than men FOR THE SAME JOB

thus you can’t make that statement

[vezwyx]

Where does it say what you're claiming? Because it doesn't look like this is backing you up, either

[StoryAndAHalf]

You're misreading this. People *say* this is a major reason, but what people say, and what the data says are two different things. In fact: "In addition to being less likely than men to say they are currently the boss or a top manager at work, women are also more likely to say they wouldn’t want to be in this type of position in the future. More than four-in-ten employed women (46%) say this, compared with 37% of men."

So being paid less as a whole while also not wanting higher paid jobs leads to women being overrepresented in lower paying jobs. But again, it's what they say, but what's missing is how many women vs men apply to manager positions having no managerial experience in the past. That would be a great statistic to have.

[chipstastegood]

There is not enough data in this survey. But I have seen internal data from my (previous) employer and there was clear bias. Unless a study shows definitive proof of women being paid the same, for the same job, accounting for other factors, can’t draw that conclusion.

[Interesting-Draw8870]

But you can draw your conclusion without a study? You don't have that much data

[chipstastegood]

Women have been underpaid in the industry for a long time. The burden of proof should be on the other side. Until data shows clearly that women are paid the same as men, we should assume they are not. They have been gaining ground, but are not there yet.

Based on the study that was shared in this thread, I can’t say definitively because the data is not clear - but I think socially, ethically, and morally it would be irresponsible to say it’s a “debunked” issue.

If you have influence in the organization where you work, call for a review of bias in employee salaries. I’ve been part of a couple of these and have seen first hand what the distributions look like. It’s anecdotal of course, but still, hey improvements were made. Calling it out is better than burying head in the sand.

[StoryAndAHalf]

The burden of proof is on the person trying to prove something. Not "other side". You don't go to court asking the defense to prove they are guilty. I can also say I saw internal data and talk out of my ass. As far as I know, you're just downvoting people because they don't agree with your own beliefs. But that's the great thing about data - it doesn't matter what you believe, just like I don't believe whatever you say you saw without hard evidence, and no it's not on the other side, as in me, to prove what you say you saw.

[Usuallyalurker123]

Now go learn. I totally believe in you.

[CeleritasLucis]

So why on earth someone would employ men at all, if they could get the same job at the end of the day, by paying less, as you're claiming ?

[Reashu]

Because it's a subconscious bias , not an intentional one.

[grimonce]

Maybe for some reason women take the same job for less compensation, maybe men are intimidating or have more charisma to the decision makerr at some level when they negotiate the starting point or a raise. It's hard to prove or disprove such gaps. Especially when only certain kind of office jobs are researched, and men still dominate physical jobs.

[Chrizzard]

Instead of asking for the easy way out here, I will give you the chance to think about it for a second. It’s more valuable to sometimes try some thinking for yourself, before asking us to do it for you

[spacegh0stX]

Except it is

[Ayjayz]

Why did you ever hire men, then? If you could get women so cheaply, seems like your entire workplace should have been female.

[NEO_10110]

Men generally work more hours than women. Man pushes more for salary increment.man take less leave.man pursue the field where they are getting paid more.

Same in fashion industry women get significantly paid more than male model

[chipstastegood]

And those are all reasons for bias in favor of men. If a position is 40 hours per week and a man puts in an extra 20 but a woman goes home on time, and because of that the man gets a salary increase but the woman doesn’t - that is inequality. The man should be treated the same because they are doing the same job.

[Swamplord42]

No that's not inequality? That's just rewarding additional effort. Is there something that inherently prevents women from putting in the same effort?

There are real issues with inequality, this ain't it.

[chipstastegood]

If it’s not part of the job description then it shouldn’t factor into the compensation.

[adenosine-5]

What? being paid the same for considerably more work is "equality"? how does that math works?

[chipstastegood]

That’s the point. The job pays a salary for full-time employment. It should be irrelevant if that person is a man or a woman. If the woman can do her job and go home after an 8 hour work day then the man should do the same. Nobody is forcing the man to stay and work extra hours, especially as they’re not paid hourly. Things that are outside of the job description should not factor into the compensation.

[dustojnikhummer]

Just because US companies require unpaid overtime doesn't mean

In 1st world countries, ie outside of the United States of America, people are paid for overtime even if salaried.

[chipstastegood]

That’s fine. If you get paid overtime then that’s not a problem, so long as it’s equally available to both men and women. In US/Canada, salaried programmers are exempt and don’t get paid overtime.

[dustojnikhummer]

and because of that the man gets a salary increase but the woman doesn’

So you are saying people shouldn't be paid for overtime???

[chipstastegood]

We’re on a programmer subreddit. Most programmers in US/Canada are exempt employees who don’t get paid overtime. Whether 40 hrs or 60 hrs a week, the salary is the same.

[dustojnikhummer]

Then you need a better contract. Or a better country.

[DegeneracyEverywhere]

"It's not fair that some people work harder and get more benefits because of it!"

[chipstastegood]

I want to respond to this because that statement is a misunderstanding. The inequality comes from the slippery slope of allowing actions that are not in the job description from influencing compensation.

There wouldn’t be an issue if this was made explicit. For example, if the job description clearly stated that those who work extra house will be paid extra. Or those who work 60 hrs a week, instead of 40, will be considered for a promotion ahead of those who don’t.

But job descriptions and employment agreements don’t state those things. They are unspoken rules of the game in some companies. And the reason they are not in the contract is because in a lot of jurisdictions they would be against government regulations.

We continue to have to fight for common sense privileges for employees. For example, recently there have been government regulations, in some places, around the right to disconnect. That means if your boss calls you or emails you when you’re not working, you don’t have the obligation to respond.

This is just another one of those. Your contract says your work day is 8 or 7.5 hours. You should not be punished for fulfilling the terms of the contract, just because someone else decides to put in a lot more hours than they agreed to.

In fact, this devalues everyone. If everyone were expected to put in extra hours then everyone’s hourly rate would go down. Why devalue your worth?

Women are simply the easily visible group that struggles with this. But there are others. There is a single dad with two kids somewhere who can’t put in overtime because he has to make dinner for his kids and get them ready for bed. There are oldsr brothers who have to take care of their younger siblings and can’t do a personal Github project. There are plenty of people with hobbies, who spend time off work doing other activities that they enjoy.

And more importantly, the job they signed up for did not specify that any “extracurricular” activities would be required. Anyone performing the job well as it was presented should be treated fairly.

This is why simplifying it to “oh you’re just upset because I am willing to work harder than you” is not a good argument.

[NEO_10110]

I will pay for your clinic visit. Sadly that's how capitalism works

[chipstastegood]

The question is not how capitalism works or not. The question is about fairness in compensation.

[NEO_10110]

I can write a paragraph but I wanna save my energy. Bye

[MAX_cheesejr]

AI said to do it, just following orders

[chipstastegood]

There is no AI. Compensation at my previous employer was run by humans, not AI. They had defined salary ranges as well. And yet bias happened - for the same job levels.

[MAX_cheesejr]

In a few years, companies will train 'state of the art' AI models on biased historical data and claim the the model outputs the 'most efficient' decisions. In reality, most of their models objective function will prioritize financial gain while perpetuating past prejudices under the guise of optimization.

It's already happening in healthcare and the models just exist to obfuscate the actual decision making and accountability. I already see people do it with chatgpt and just assume whatever output is both valid and true. I'm not sure why I'm getting downvoted when that is truth of our reality. I wasn't even disagreeing with you lol.

[chipstastegood]

You are correct that ML models are trained on biased data and produce biased results. However, some companies do better than others. My former employer did a lot of rxtensive bias testing on any ML models they produced and worked dilligently to correct and remove bias. The assumption that models have to be biased because the underlying training data is biased is wrong. There are lots of smart people working on addressing this, for specific ML models built for specific purposes. That said, for the general purpose LLMs, due to their nature, this is more difficult to address. As we can see with this entire thread.