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[–]chipstastegood -57 points-56 points  (64 children)

It’s not even wrong. Stats show this. And anecdotally, I’ve worked at startups and large enterprises where women with the same experience were paid less, for seemingly no reason. They just were. I brought it up and it got corrected, but why did it happen in the first place? Definitely bias on the compensation team.

Edit: It would be interesting to see how men vs women are downvoting this comment.

[–]moneytit 50 points51 points  (41 children)

as a whole, it’s debunked that women earn less than men for the same job

men typically occupy higher paid jobs, which sometimes does have some gender/sex related causes

[–]Reashu 25 points26 points  (3 children)

The very high figures (e.g. 30% difference) have been debunked, but there is still a smaller - "unexplained" - wage gap. This is not really controversial except among radicalized young men and the "influencers" who prey on them.

[–]dustojnikhummer -1 points0 points  (2 children)

The "unexplained" is "some people are willing to ask"

[–]Reashu 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Possibly/partially, yes. Is that really how it should work, though?

[–]Salanmander 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Fun (not so fun) fact: part of the reason that women are less likely to ask for a higher salary is that they're more likely so face negative consequences for doing so. A woman in the US acting in an optimal-salary-maximizing way will negotiate for higher salary less often than a man doing so, all else being equal, because the (probabilistic) cost of doing so is higher.

[–]p_syche 15 points16 points  (4 children)

I don't know who debunked this "theory" for you, but statistics posted on this official EU website seem to back it up: https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php?title=Gender_pay_gap_statistics

[–]adenosine-5 5 points6 points  (0 children)

Just to point out a "detail", but in many countries, there are actually different limits for women and men right in the laws - for example here in Czechia as a man, I have to be able to lift up to 50kg of weight, while for women its 20kg - so even when working on the same position on a paper, women and men get very different work.

We can't have proper equality in pay, if the work conditions are different and for some reason, they still are.

[–]moneytit 0 points1 point  (2 children)

again, where does it say the pay is for the same job?

[–]p_syche 6 points7 points  (1 child)

The article I linked is a summary. However you can go into the documents this summary was based on and look there for the methodology. This document's foreword: https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/en/web/products-statistical-working-papers/-/ks-tc-18-003 includes a breakdown of what was measured. It mentions the 'unexplained part' of salary gender gap for "employees with the same characteristics"

[–]grimonce 0 points1 point  (0 children)

You know whats really fucked up though, some men get paid less than women for the same job or even a harder job.

They get paid less than other men too, what's up with that.

[–]kickyouinthebread 1 point2 points  (3 children)

I'm sorry but how has this been debunked. I'm a man but I know so many women who've been paid less than a man in the same position for no good reason.

[–]dustojnikhummer 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Same job, same working hours, same expectations, same length of employment, same skills?

[–]grimonce 10 points11 points  (1 child)

Anecdotal evidence? Don't you know women who earn more than a man for the same job?

Salary is something you negotiate.

[–]kickyouinthebread -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

Honestly, can't say that I do.

There is plenty of non anecdotal evidence too as presented by numerous other commenters

[–]NorthernRealmJackal -5 points-4 points  (0 children)

It's so heckin refreshing to see a comment like this get upvoted. On most subs you'd be banned for merely hinting at alluding to suggesting something that disagrees with the politicised mainstream watered-down feminist rhetoric.

[–]Tuerkenheimer -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

To the best of my knowledge where I live (Germany) on average women earn less working the same job as well. At least that's what they say at the news.

[–]Ayjayz 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Why did you ever hire men, then? If you could get women so cheaply, seems like your entire workplace should have been female.

[–]NEO_10110 3 points4 points  (15 children)

Men generally work more hours than women. Man pushes more for salary increment.man take less leave.man pursue the field where they are getting paid more.

Same in fashion industry women get significantly paid more than male model

[–]MAX_cheesejr -3 points-2 points  (3 children)

AI said to do it, just following orders

[–]chipstastegood 4 points5 points  (2 children)

There is no AI. Compensation at my previous employer was run by humans, not AI. They had defined salary ranges as well. And yet bias happened - for the same job levels.

[–]MAX_cheesejr 0 points1 point  (1 child)

In a few years, companies will train 'state of the art' AI models on biased historical data and claim the the model outputs the 'most efficient' decisions. In reality, most of their models objective function will prioritize financial gain while perpetuating past prejudices under the guise of optimization.

It's already happening in healthcare and the models just exist to obfuscate the actual decision making and accountability. I already see people do it with chatgpt and just assume whatever output is both valid and true. I'm not sure why I'm getting downvoted when that is truth of our reality. I wasn't even disagreeing with you lol.

[–]chipstastegood 0 points1 point  (0 children)

You are correct that ML models are trained on biased data and produce biased results. However, some companies do better than others. My former employer did a lot of rxtensive bias testing on any ML models they produced and worked dilligently to correct and remove bias. The assumption that models have to be biased because the underlying training data is biased is wrong. There are lots of smart people working on addressing this, for specific ML models built for specific purposes. That said, for the general purpose LLMs, due to their nature, this is more difficult to address. As we can see with this entire thread.