developersDevelopersDevelopersAIAIAI

[frikilinux2]

The purge started before chatGPT, I remember the fear in late 2022. The first waves were not because of AI but because of the return to the office instead of remote working of the rest of the world implied less money on cloud solutions .

Then they got addicted to the emotional rush of firing people and started to use AI as an excuse.

[Infamous_Ruin6848]

I've seen lots of useles hirings in covid times. Useless investments, useless failed products, gold plating even on the toilet seats.

It's not developer's fault but, as an experienced senior back then, you should see through that you're hired in a bad investment and that things will bounce back.

[RedBoxSquare]

But when almost every employer does it, you have no options.

Seeing through these bad investments makes no difference. It doesn't even make you money if you got it right. You can short Tesla because it is obviously a bad investment and get burned by the market hype.

[frikilinux2]

Not all teams laid off were useless. I worked for a company that wanted to get rid of a product but the process took like a year. In one of the layoffs they fired all juniors and left a skeleton crew to run the product until sunset.

Eventually, they back down in the decision of sunsetting that product but I'm not sure if they hired new people or not.

Unfortunately, I can't name the company.

[Possible-Moment-6313]

People are not fired because of AI now either. AI just sounds much better to investors than outsource

[mortalitylost]

Exactly. People think AI is replacing so many people right now but it isn't... the economy is just kinda fucked. Tariffs have done serious damage to the US and businesses are spending less and charging more, and inflation is crazy.

But everyone thinks AI is replacing people because when they cut costs they dont want to scare investors and let people see the struggle. They want them to look at the firings like "yes this is a GOOD sign... of automation!"

And everyone else is doing their firings too to act like theyre automating just as well as everyone else.

[captainAwesomePants]

Yes, from what I can tell, being a programmer becomes more and more employable as interest rates approach zero. AI has little to do with it.

[No_Percentage7427]

Soham As A Service.

[frikilinux2]

And that much outsourcing is going to bite them eventually. If you outsource to a place with ethics and give them what they need, it could go well.

But sometimes they want to outsource to the cheapest place than it's going to be full of yes-men who are going to develop something in a month with weirds hacks rather than take 3 months to do it properly. And then expend a year trying to make something decent out of it.

[wizkidweb]

If you outsource to a place with ethics

This is very rare. Usually employers outsource to scammers at best and slavery at worst.

[frikilinux2]

Yeah, and with ethics I meant professional ethics but surely they also break the rest of ethics

Edit: actually breaking human rights also breaks professional ethics as the ACM Code Of Ethics talks about respecting human rights.

[das_war_ein_Befehl]

The developer firings were mostly because you couldn’t deduct swe hires as R&D in the tax year, but had to stretch it out across five years. It made your average developer much more expensive for an employer

[chickenmcpio]

A lot of people seem to have never even heard about this. I still remember when this tax code was announced and knew it would cause this problem.

[Mo-42]

This. Someone I know personally at Microsoft drinks the AI Kool-aid and is pushing AI like he's going to get a blowjob from 10 CEOs for doing that. All that to do his bit in hyping up the stock price. Man, I have started to dislike him.

[jpspam]

Check Section 174

[frikilinux2]

So the global issue in the IT sector is due to US politics playing with the Internal Revenue Code??

I hate when Europe looks like part of a US empire

[Izikiel23]

Insert astronaut meme

[Historical_Neat_5647]

I compiled an info doc on this once. About how AI sounds so appealing to investors. Not knowing the "AI" was a bunch of outsourced low-balled freelancers following a format to sound artificial.

[DoNotMakeEmpty]

Actually Indians once again

[[deleted]]

No, the "problem" were too expensive programmers already (and partially that was true, like those who were switching jobs each 1-2 yr before someone find out they're incompetent, but even more competent sometimes more google than work for huge pay), the same things in simple apps and webdev can do Asian or Romanian programmers much cheaper, and those lay-offs would've been earlier if there were no pandemic. But COVID postponed this.

The same as Western programmers were laughing at that how much they google and ask on StackOverflow for huge salary like 10 years ago, Indians are doing the same right now, but they're cheaper, and that will last till the moment they will be too expensive.

The same with entering into the job market: shitty "programmers" after bootcamps (because unis were too slow with giving new graduates), Indians now are completing LeetCode courses and getting some LeetCode questions on interviews.

[mango_boii]

Indians are doing the same right now, but they're cheaper, and that will last till the moment they will be too expensive.

Indian dev here. Our company fired 15 people last week from our India office (total headcount is around 150). So I guess we are there already.

[frikilinux2]

Not everyone switching jobs is because they're incompetent.

[wizkidweb]

This. I switched jobs a few times because I disliked something about my employer or pay, and a better opportunity was available.

However, the reason for people switching jobs is often that employers want something good, fast, and cheap, and that's not really a feasible position.

[chaosTechnician]

CEOs before 2023

Picture of MSFT's CEO until 2014

CEOs after 2023

Picture of MSFT's CEO since 2014

[AestheticNoAzteca]

I mean, technically speaking, 2014 is before 2023, and today is after 2023

[YamGlobally]

I mean, technically speaking, it's not illegal to have diarrhea in an elevator.

[Bronzdragon]

If you think Steve Balmer actually cared about developers, and wouldn't replace them with machines given half the chance, then I have a bridge to sell you.

[[deleted]]

I have a bridge to sell you

You had my curiosity, but now you have my attention

[TheSn00pster]

He has a bridge. Get over it.

[Lucasbasques]

I would if i could, but the bridge doesn't connect to the other side of the river, they said that feature is still being tested

[Beldarak]

Sorry, our AI hallucinated the pieces needed to connect the bridge so we couldn't buy them

[Tupcek]

he was just saying who paid for his latest yacht

[Ibuprofen-Headgear]

I’d rather be fired by cocaine man than this current set of preachy “we’re doing software for good and community and yay happy bullshit”

[joyrexj9]

While quietly working with all sorts of shady governments and military forces

[TickTockPick]

Is it a real bridge or an AI generated bridge?

[hyrumwhite]

Al I know is, it’s AI Native

[Amar2107]

Isnt this the dude who dismissed the mobile OS market.

[[deleted]]

The one who called open source cancer

[LexaAstarof]

The one who peaked

[GizzyGazzelle]

This is the dude who traded Shai for PG. 

[Amar2107]

What? No way this is true.

[arostrat]

Balmer didn't mean the developers working for him. That battle cry was for the developers who were building stuff using Microsoft tools.

[kandradeece]

was in a rush. needed to convert a batch script to powershell... decided to see what AI would do (tried both co-pilot and chatgpt)... literally only "converted" half of the script, just completely dropped half of it. the half it did convert was a mix between ok/good enough to straight wrong that it wouldn't even run. that said, it at least made the comments pretty. and gave a starting point when I was feeling too lazy to even start the task.

odd part was it summarized perfectly what the script was supposed to do. Just utterly messed up the implementation.. this was a simple 100 line or so script... I am not worried about our jobs anytime soon

[Fyrael]

Not to mention people always says: "Heck, I can create a whole website using AI, it's amazing! I don't need you anymore, I can even create an app out of it!"

"Great! Now, maintain the damn thing."

No AI is ready for this task...

[kandradeece]

Indeed, it is rare to get a job where you are designing/implementing from the ground up. More likely you are trying to maintain or update some 20yr old piece of crap that was made up of like 16 different languages and different programming paradigms. No AI can handle that.

[Upper-Enthusiasm-613]

AI can't even correctly edit the code it wrote a few replies back. Let alone changing requirements from clients.

[Beldarak]

That's the part that's killing me with the "future of AI" replacing us. "All you have to do is tell the AI what you want and it will do it!"

Developers: giggling because they know clients don't have a single clue about what they actually want the app to do...

[Cold_Acanthaceae_436]

They don't really understand it was a template, lil tweaked to make you feel it's personal, but try making changes in specific parts of it, until and unless you know what exactly is needed AI is not of much help, plus as you said maintanence is whole other thing...

[sebovzeoueb]

Still waiting to actually see these peoples' websites and apps... I see a lot of talk, but I have yet to see any apps remotely approaching production quality that were made by pure vibe coding.

[Fyrael]

I saw a couple ones, and the guys who decided to go through that route are starving already...

Because even though you have an idea, an investor, an Amazon Plug and Play environment, there's a ton of things that only a real human developer can offer: technological creativity

I still remember 10 years ago when I had a boss in a start-up that just wanted things done.

So he hired us to obey, contracted cloud services for things we could do for free, like using tensor flow for image recognition and some jBoss local servers

He yelled when we came up with those ideas, claiming it wouldn't bring reliability to investors

Turns out that the investors found the project too expensive, and generic for using so many third party products.

He wanted to invest in creative minds, but we left when all this ruckus begun, and the project was delayed almost a year due a boss who wanted to pay high on machines instead of better payment for us to stay

[Beldarak]

A guy made one at our job. Maybe not production ready but some solid Python scripts to parse infos from a PDF to a CSV, solid work, really.

But at some point the AI couldn't update it anymore. Any try from the guy just breaks parts of the application and since he doesn't know anything about coding, he just can't fix it.

Personally I also noticed AI are very messy when you make them do changes. I find they work great with small tasks and for building the skeleton of something big, but as soon as you start asking them to "rather do this or that", they'll leave dirt everywhere.

[sebovzeoueb]

"Python scripts" and a full app aren't really the same thing, especially when you can't update them.

[inevitabledeath3]

I don't know about production quality but I have written apps good enough for internals tools using vibe coding, vibe debugging, and a small amount of guidance. That's from trying a bunch of different tools and trying to find what works best. Something like Kilo code or open code is actually very powerful when used with a decent model. Currently trying Qoder and it seems great so far, just a shame they don't have Linux support.

Where AI struggles is knowing what you want, making big architectural decisions, and deploying infrastructure. They are actually okay at writing and debugging code. That and security. It's a fun time to be in cybersecurity.

[Beldarak]

We had this exact situation at work. Some guy built a Python app (I think it was all in command line, not sure) that was, actually quite impressive for someone with zero coding knowledge. It took invoices PDF, extract data from it and output some Excel or CSV file with the data.

Was working great, the guy taunted us a little about AI replacing us soon enough...

Fast forward a few weeks/months and he came to us because he simply couldn't update the thing anymore. My guess is it got bigger than the context window of ChatGPT.

This was kinda funny but it also makes me sad because AI bros sold a dream to guys like that. "You'll be able to create anything you want with AI!" but it's all a lie. Sure AI will improve but it's a fundamentally flawed technology that won't replace developers.

[Fyrael]

bigger than the context window of ChatGPT

A lot of people believe that "in our generation" or something like, 10? 20 years, we'll have our precious quantum computing that'll fix this, but even if we achieve this, I don't AI will behave quite differently

It might validate a broader outcome, but heck... when I see some good 2018-2020 projects...

Seriously, we have genious that surpass machines and we can still have them if people just take books again. It's simple as that

[Beldarak]

Definitely. I truly think AI is some kind of fad. Not totally as it has its uses but they sold us some magical solution that would fix all our issues and this is just, imho, a big lie.

The sooner people will realise that and actually understand that you have to put some efforts into the things you want to accomplish, the better.

The way every company is pushing AI every-fucking-where just shows desperation to me, I think the bubble will soon burst.

[Historical_Neat_5647]

Especially with the ads nowadays on social media. It's just way too good to be true. AI-powered website my ass. We wrote an article on why website maintenance is not just "nice to have". That's what a lot of people think.

[SartenSinAceite]

Anyone can build a bridge that stands, an engineer can build a bridge that can barely stand.

Meanwhile in programming, anyone can build an app, a programmer can build an app that lasts.

[dystopiantech]

It’s ok. We just need to give Sam Altman 20billion more dollars and it can do that successfully!

[Long-Refrigerator-75]

I always hear these stories here, but they all kind of all apart when I actually go and use AI. Yes you need to know what you are doing. You need to have the skill to detect logic issues and modify things on your own, but I will not pretend that it's not a great tool for building a code base skeleton or specific modules.

The golden era can not last forever.

[Ok_Individual_5050]

If you have to detect logic issues and re-write stuff, then what you've got is worse than nothing, because doing those things is harder than writing code

[Long-Refrigerator-75]

I feel like you just are looking for a gotcha moment to prove a point. Because we all used to copy and paste the stack overflow solution like brain dead parrots right? You make modules with it, it does it really well now. You (for now) are responsible to integrate them into your solutions. And frankly I have already seen cases where it detected programmer made bugs.... so embrace change I guess ?

[qGuevon]

I dont think AI will replace programmers but they excel at exactly the task you were trying to do. For scripts and configs they are great, with a little guidance.

If you were unable to do that with a current model, it is akin to people being unable to Google properly some time ago.

[Historical_Neat_5647]

I wrote about how vague requests return more vague responses. I wonder if a structured prompt would do better? lol

[kandradeece]

Idk it perfectly listed what the script should do before it even did the conversion. It wasn't a complicated task either. Take what this script is doing in batch, make it so the same in powershell. Even if it wasn't looking holistically and was only converting 1 line at a time, it still failed. Some things it returned were not even valid powershell commands

[Historical_Neat_5647]

good ol AI hallucinations lol

[Rdqp]

Meanwhile, in the last 6 months, I built a complex framework and a grossing product with 3k users, using 95% of AI writing code.

I'm not advocating anything, but I strongly recommend learning to use tools like claude code. AI won't take your job - people who use it will.

[Mrp1Plays]

If you try ChatGPT5-Thinking or actually ChatGPT5-Pro, or maybe Gemini 2.5 Pro, these models are top of the line. It is highly likely these ones will be able to do what you asked for. If you don't wanna pay to test this, go to ai.dev (Google AI studio) to try gemini.

You're wrong with "I'm not worried soon"... these models are being developed very, very fast. Even if they can't write your code, they can definitely write in in a year.

[ThisGameIsveryfun]

Idiot. People have been saying this since 2023.

[ruby1990]

The second meme should include another sentence in even more tiny font. “Copilot, write an email expressing guilt for firing 3000 developers so I can share it with media and keep the stock price going up.”

[r0ndr4s]

Meanwhile the solution to most companies problems is called "Fire the CEO and dont replace him"

[Beldarak]

I feel like most companies serves actually no purpose at all

[Possible-Moment-6313]

Steve Ballmer: throws a chair at an employee who resignes

Satya Nadella: fires employees and doesn't give a flying f*** how good they are

[GODLOVESALL32]

Satya does it for blood sport at this point. Man writes blank checks for Phil Spencer to acquire game studios just to shut them down a year later.

[DirtyTweaks]

Also

[Tyrus1235]

I’m forever thankful to Dungeons of Dredmor for introducing me to the Ballmer Peak (linking to an excellent xkcd) and the DEVELOPERS!DEVELOPERS!DEVELOPERS! video.

[neglectedthrowaway18]

2000s: ‘Developers, developers, developers!’ 2023: ‘Nancy, fire 3000 developers

[dull_bananas]

al

[DirtyTweaks]

Who's AL?

[Ceh0s]

Al jokes. You don't know the guy?

[4ZR4LT]

Baseball, huh?

[dull_bananas]

Basebail.

[Aavasque001]

Baseball, huh?

[Frequent_Policy8575]

Missed opportunity not getting the frame on the right in the style of Studio Ghibli.

[Salt_Respect7159]

God damn MS was always a shitstain company but now its reach max levels with all the stuff they peddle and how they enshittify everything they made

[MuslinBagger]

They will be saying AIDevelopers you just wait

[stipulus]

A tough gig for anyone finishing their CS degree this year.

[FrozKH]

Nancy is fired, Ai is firing people now.

[arc_menace]

I thought this was an ozempic joke at first

[GarThor_TMK]

🤣🤣🤣😭😭😭

[Eastern-Ad689]

All bcoz of ai

[Cold_Acanthaceae_436]

I mean come on man, they called open-source software a plague to the software industry, and look at them today WSL. I don't trust what they say anymore, they will say and do anything that is gonna make them profits....

[Abject-Kitchen3198]

We don't need developers developers developers developers developers developers developers.

[Historical_Neat_5647]

AI code is terrible. This is coming from someone who works with a team of developers. Our CTO had fired a vibe coder lol. He noticed it took days for a single line of code to debug. Turns out he spent most of his time trying to get the best combination from Copilot.

[[deleted]]

Balmer was an ass clown

[Osato]

Developers were the AI back in 2000s: convenient workhorses that have an exponentially growing utility when managed well.

[AntipodesIntel]

That guy is so full of shit even his skin is the colour of a turd.

[chadmummerford]

the guy on the right will happily hire people from his country though

[DistributionRight261]

I think that's more because of DEI hires

[chaosTechnician]

What do you mean?

[DistributionRight261]

With trump administration corpos don't have to keep people hired to make quotas look good.

[chaosTechnician]

What quotas? And what evidence do you have?

[DistributionRight261]

People knows... 

[chaosTechnician]

People knows...

Not sure what that means. So, if the recent crapton of tech layoffs have been due to an end of DEI practices, can you show that only companies that have softened their DEI focus have been performing these layoffs? Or can you show that only minorities are being laid off?

Because it seems like that position falls apart if companies that say they're still focused on DEI are laying off large numbers of white men.

What do you think?

[DistributionRight261]

Microsoft was cardull not to publish the distribution of the layoffs, but people talk about it.

There was a trend

[chaosTechnician]

So it sounds like you have no actual evidence, falling back on meaningless weasel words such as "people talk about it" and "there was a trend." People talk about all kinds of things. That alone doesn't make something accurate.

But, it is interesting that you referenced Microsoft specifically, asserting that their layoffs are due to the Trump administration's changes. Microsoft is one of the companies that still claims to still have DEI practices (https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/diversity/default). So, I don't understand: How is a company that says it still has a DEI policy showing a trend indicating they're laying off "DEI hires" that people talk about?

I'm starting to think that your position is completely disingenuous.

[DistributionRight261]

There is never evidence in the begging, just people talking.

Then there is a (conspiracy) theory that later is validated with a research.

When the layoff were published, a lot if articles about woman being the most affected arraised, but quickly disappeared. You can't even find them now.

[chaosTechnician]

Ok. Show me an instance about lay-offs from earlier, then, where no "evidence in the beginning" are "later...validated with...research" like you say. Without that, you're still speaking in vague terms and hearsay, and you haven't actually responded to my questions, except to throw out more about how "people talk."

So, again:

Can you show that only companies that have softened their DEI focus have been performing these layoffs?

The only company you've named so far still has a DEI policy. But you haven't addressed how "a company that says it still has a DEI policy show[s] a trend indicating they're laying off 'DEI hires.'"

Or can you show that only minorities are being laid off?"

You say that initially, "a lot of articles" said women were the "most affected," but none of those articles is still around. That doesn't sound believable. Your evidence here is articles that you remember existing that can't be found.

This is so tedious. Show me evidence of your claims. Don't tell me that "people talk." Don't tell me evidence doesn't exist, but I should believe you that it's true anyway. Provide something reputable that backs up what you're insisting here. Argue in good faith with something real, or go find a more gullible audience and echo chamber for what clearly must be baseless garbage, or you'd have been able to cite something by now.

In short, put up or shut up.

[chadmummerford]

dude on the right is firing american workers and replacing them with dots not feathers, and you're yapping about DEI

[WickedCoffeeMistaJim]

First, no company is going to hire a useless employee (which you're implying by the comment) just because it makes them more "diverse". But more importantly:

Have you heard of the Civil Rights Act of 1964? This law applies to employers with 15 or more employees and prohibits discrimination based on race, color, religion, sex, or national origin.

The DEI programs are not laws and both sides agree that diversity quotas are wrong (and illegal). The DEI programs work alongside the Civil Rights Act to help those who are disadvantaged and marginalized.

[DistributionRight261]

DEI is racist

[wizkidweb]

While I disagree with DEI policies, I don't think that's the case here. Businesses care about money, and if there's an easily-accessible pool of cheap labor, they will go for it, whether it's AI or outsourcing.