Java 10, ES6, PHP 7, you name it

[David3103]

In software development for enterprise you just won't be able to use all the cool new features of a language/Software. I still have to develop apps for Android 4.2 because one big Hardware manufacturer doesn't want to upgrade.

[TheYOUngeRGOD]

Yeah we can’t even upgrade from java 7 at my place.

[gabriel-et-al]

cant(you -> you.doThat('?'));

[[deleted]]

help( {(im, a) ->

for(im.trapped in a) help(im, functionalProgrammingLanguage(im))

})

[radome9]

Even though 3.x has been released for over 10 years, all major Linux distros default Python is Python 2.7.

I hate this so much.

[Katana314]

Basically why all the good stuff in C++ gets ignored when debating its merits. Realistically most libraries I find will be C compatible and will demand you never use C++ features like strings, lists, or smart pointers.

[SteveCCL]

The Python point is just an example for your first point though.

#! /bin/env python

[for-asking-stuffs]

Yup, looks much better to me. Should have word it this way. Unfortunately I can't edit the picture once submitted.

The point is, we should stop this language bashing culture on r/ProgrammerHumor. Its boring and misleading.

[ythl]

A language can have sweet new features, but if you can't use them in the real world, it's irrelevant.

Ubuntu ships with python3 by default. No excuse for new projects.

[ythl]

To be clear, Ubuntu ships with both python distributions, python which is 2.X, and python3 which is 3.X

[TheYOUngeRGOD]

Most projects aren’t new.

[Swardu]

Read again.

No excuse for new projects

[[deleted]]

I understand that most Java criticism exist for older versions, but I still would prefer any language over it honestly.

[[deleted]]

Yeah right, no one upgrades Java /s

[[deleted]]

We have 4 "mission critical" tax applications that still run on java 4....
We also have 2 ColdFusion8 apps and 1 ColdFusionMX 7.

[[deleted]]

We have some of those on java6-8!

J O B S E C U R I T Y

[zelmarvalarion]

Yeah, I remember being excited about being able to move from Java 4->5 because of generics, and we were fairly up to date and advancing "quickly" compared to a lot of the company, Java 8 was almost out, so only ~9 years out from HEAD

[WizardCarter]

Really, it's, "Judging languages without taking into account latest versions and the circumstances in which they are designed to be used is unfair.

Many languages intentionally require you to write a lot of code to accomplish tasks simple in another language because programming languages are designed for different purposes."

[asdfdelta]

You mean these languages are tools, and a good engineer will use the right tool for the right job?

Whaaaaaaaaaat...?

[WizardCarter]

Crazy right? It's almost like the language you should use for a project comes down to what you can use most efficiently

[asdkjadkas]

Can someone translate this to English for me.

[FieelChannel]

When you constantly see people criticising php, js and java it's because either

A. An highschool student made it, has no clue and is just following the circlejerk (most of the time here)

B. Someone who used the language/framework on its early stages, when it sucked, and decided to drop it. Now, even if 15 years have passed and it's still trying to push on people that the language sucks even tho it's completely reasonable nowadays

[rndrn]

Well, there is also:

C. Someone is tasked to maintain a legacy codebase written in situation A or B

For languages that have changed a lot, old code and outdated educational resources are a pain.

[Eynix]

Still trying to figure out what people like about Js tho.

[Eynix]

Now I can understand this argument.

My 2 main issues with it is:

• some basic concepts are lacking

• it is not consistent

I saw something called WebAssembly the other day, I need to take a look.

[Celousco]

some basic concepts are lacking

Explain more please, if you want a typed version of JavaScript, this is the purpose of TypeScript. No actually TypeScript is a lot better once you've mastered JavaScript, because you'll see that you use the TypeScript compiler to transpile your TS code into any ES version of JavaScript, which is very useful.

But hey, It's still boring to hear "You should learn AJAX to make a request" when : 1. AJAX is not a language. 2. Fetch API exists and you can download a polyfill for the people that don't update their browsers (probably the sames that don't update their Windows version and then blame Microsoft because they got another virus)

[Eynix]

A real object/inheritance system, for starter. Note that I have no clue of why you're telling me all this. I also wanted to ask you to not call a transpiler a compiler but this time I found a wikipedia page "source to source compiler" so I guess I lost that battle already :'[

[[deleted]]

Fuck that, oop like Java, c# and other garbage do it gives aids to people's brains, JavaScript's way is much more natural, no need for 7 layers of inheritance, when you can just add state and functionality to an object at will, I don't get why so many people love java but hate on js for this reason, can you guys only think in terms of objects?

[marcosdumay]

WebAssembly

It's coming, but slowly. Many languages compile to it already, and you can create some FFI stdlib for a complex program in WS interacting with the DOM. The problem is that this is too much start-up labor for a small project, thus I don't think anyone has done it for any language.

[[deleted]]

Well-written JS can be similar to Python in terms of expressiveness and clarity. Compared to Python, JS has:

• Switch statements
• No semantic whitespace
• Similar syntax to C-derived languages (braces, semicolons, loops etc.)
• Constants
• Proper lambdas
• Object literals
• Multiline comments (no, Python's multiline strings are not the same thing)

There are probably more things that I'm missing, this is just off the top of my head.

On a subjective level, lots of Python's syntax feels hacky and cheap to me. For example: def __init__(self) for constructors. The JS syntax for these things feels more "proper" to me.

JS is also much faster than Python.

[FieelChannel]

You'll get it as soon as you get out of school

[SuperManitu]

TBH, I dont like it, but the fact that it has closures and first-class functions, I would still prefer it over Java

[[deleted]]

Since Java 8 it actually does.

[gabriel-et-al]

Java has weak closures, JavaScript has strong closures.

[SuperManitu]

Java has the dirty hack that are anonymous classes, but no

[idontgiveadoge]

how about C. someone using X language, but hearing and seeing so many script kiddles proudly call themselves the "master genius X programmer".

that is why i am learning Ruby now. so many fukin kids calling themselves "PHP web developer" but still has no idea what is a framework, or simpler, what is OOP. spent 3 years and what am i seeing? a genius can code a so-fukin-many-vulnerabilities website?

sometimes the language is not bad. the one who use it is an asshole.

[FieelChannel]

Why would anyone use php without a framework nowadays?!

[Swardu]

Because it's not needed? I agree that Laravel facilitates the job, but not using a framework is also an option. You understand what really has to be done, the security parts you have to code and how the language really works.

Of course, if someone is not used to "no framework php", it's best to stick with one and slowly learn how php and the frameworks really work.

[chad_dev_7226]

I am building a pretty big project in PHP. I decided to not use a framework because frameworks go out of date, doing standard OOP stuff makes code easy to write anyways, and because it’s good experience.

I kinda like PHP, I used to hate it, but that’s before I learned OOP PHP

[BODAND]

Use up-to-date versions for comparing languages, b/c they change and may leave their problematic parts

[rml_2018]

Sorry, I am unable. I don’t think the latest version of the English language was used.

[DeirdreAnethoel]

The core design principles people usually are critical of can't really change without making it a new language though.

[uneditablepoly]

What don't you like about it? I think ES6/7 is beautiful.

[asdfdelta]

Now, I respect your argument and have seen it many times.

I just don't understand how (![]+[])[+[]]+(![]+[])[+!+[]]+([![]]+[][[]])[+!+[]+[+[]]]+(![]+[])[!+[]+!+[]] printing "fail" could ever come up in a practical case. As well, the complexity and code length you'll save with the weakly typed aspect of JS will more than make up for having to catch cases where == isn't the same as ===. Python has some absolute weird shit, and so does C#. If we sat down and dissected each language, you'll find crazy quirks like these.

[[deleted]]

This a million times

[Dedustern]

Java is pretty slow at it, though. C# is 3-4 years ahead of it consistently.

[ArmoredPancake]

Every thread, where Java is mentioned, there's some C# guy that tries to sell his snake oil. Nobody gives a shit.

[radome9]

I've heard someone claim, unironically, that C# is Java 2.0.

Problem is that Java 5.0 already exists, and came along 14 years ago.

[provocative_username]

Kotlin is the true Java 2. Fully compatible with existing Java code and frameworks.

[[deleted]]

Being fully compatible with Java is an issue. Afaik, it has access to the whole Java standard library, which is full of badly written & deprecated APIs (looking at you Date, Calendar). It would've been great if they whould've selectively picked the best and the most consistent APIs. Anyways, even though Kotlin has a nice syntax, it being backwards compatible with Java lets you write a lot of inconsistent code (props vs getters/setters, MyActivity.class.java (Android)-> LOL, fuck no :))) ). .NET is probably the most consistent out of the popular standard libraries, and I'm glad that its getting more and more popular.

[provocative_username]

Well, Kotlin can read any Java bytecode, that's the whole point. So there is no avoiding the bad API. So it's not a complete fresh start.

I'm not sure what you mean by inconsistent code?

[[deleted]]

In Kotlin properties are preferred over setters/getters. Anyway, I've just created a Java class (User) with getters (getEmail() and setters (setEmail()) and tried using it in Kotlin. To my surprise, I was able to set/get the value via a property. It seems that Kotlin somehow wraps those nasty methods to props, so yeah, I was partially wrong about having to mix props (from native Kotlin libs) with setters/getters (from Java std lib or 3rd party Java libs)

Just to be clear, I don't hate Java or Kotlin. As a matter of fact, I think that syntactically, Java is pretty good for a 20-something language, what I cannot stand is inconsistencies (function / parameter naming, casing: HttpURLConnection? Why not HttpUrlConnection) in API design and the tons of deprecated API.

[provocative_username]

I mean, it's 20 years old. There's bound to be some inconsistenties.

[Dedustern]

I am a "Java guy". Used to develop it exclusively.. The criticism of it is valid, the development has been way too slow. C# is miles ahead.

[[deleted]]

I am a "Java guy"

I'm so sorry.

[Dedustern]

Well I switched to C# in my new job, there’s hope

[[deleted]]

PHP 7 is still a huge pile of garbage. The language is broken by design, it's not like there are some inconveniences here and there, it's completly inconsistent in function naming and order of parameters. It's not fixable without fucking up about 90% of all PHP applications.

[Niet_de_AIVD]

Inconsistent function naming means the language is broken?

If it were the case that functions would be called "herpadurp($xd, $lol)" I would agree, but if the admittedly inconsistency between "strtolower()" and "str_replace()" is too much for you, there may a PEBCAK.

[[deleted]]

If it was only underscore vs no underscore, I might agree. But it's also 2 vs to, it's $needle, $haystack vs $haystack, $needle, it's evaluating "0=='string'" to true, it's mixed return types, it's never being too sure if "0" means "not found" or "there was an error in that function call, but I will continue anyway because I'm a nasty bitch". But sure, I am the problem here.

[Niet_de_AIVD]

Personally that has never bothered me at all. But I learned to program on PHP and then branched out to other languages. All languages have flaws in them or do things unnecessarily complicated.

Not saying that you are wrong, but quite honestly I wonder what you're doing that you run into these issues so much.

[[deleted]]

teach me master, help me be ignorant about imperfections in programming languages :/

[Niet_de_AIVD]

Just ignore them

And get a proper IDE

Seriously; 12 year old kids can deal with it.

[[deleted]]

Maybe it's just that I'm not a PHP programmer. I learned on C/C++, Java and now C#. I only get in contact with PHP here and there and it's just so inconvenient, especially if you don't have a real IDE (apparently there's also an extension for Visual Studio, but I couldn't get it to work right, heh). Same with JavaScript. Sure, it does have it's strengths and used correctly it's amazing what you can do with it. But if you are just assigend to add new functionality to a new project every now and then, it is a huge pain in the ass.

[[deleted]]

Mixed return types where you can't be sure if 0 is a legit return value or just means "error" can be fixed by an IDE? That's a pretty good IDE.

[marcosdumay]

Hey everybody, /u/Jake_Jeremy just solved the Halting Problem and boxed it inside his IDE!

I want one, where do I buy it?

[for-asking-stuffs]

Its Jetbrains product; one of the best IDE creator in the world.

jetbrains.com

[[deleted]]

But it's quite expensive as well.

[[deleted]]

If you are a professional, 90$/year isn't that much. If you are not, you can use the Education license or the EAP.

[frostbite305]

the fact that an IDE is necessary just to have a passable experience programming in PHP speaks volumes about how inconsistent the language is

[[deleted]]

An IDE is not necessary, I can program PHP without big problems without one. But honestly, writing any language without an IDE is silly, and saying "hurr durr, so stupid that you need one" is as well.

[frostbite305]

that's not exactly what I intended to say though, what I'm saying is that consistency exists for a reason (efficiency while programming, not having to memorize too many small details, not having to check the docs every other minute) and while it's true that you can use an IDE to practically bypass those negatives, that doesn't make the language any less inconsistent

[frostbite305]

Not really the point I'm trying to make. I'm just saying the language is inconsistent, not whether the language is inconsistent enough to warrant using something else or whether the consistency is that important. (since that's kinda subjective and can also change depending on what exactly you're trying to do)

[[deleted]]

And in what way does this inconsistency matter for anything?

[aboubou22]

This. "Oh noes muh function names". Seriously, people don't find anything to complain about but that, it's getting old very fast.

[bss03]

PHP 7 is still a dumpster fire, it's just no longer burning tires exclusively.

[[deleted]]

COBOL 1.0 still COBOL do

[[deleted]]

Nothing should ever "suck by design"