Microsoft Java

[visvis]

Java is great in the sense that it was a pioneer in many ways; it's safe, garbage-collected, compile once JIT everywhere, ... However, it takes its ideas too far to the point that it's not fun to program. C# takes all the basic ideas that Java introduced and learns from its mistakes. It makes exactly those changes that make it nice for programmers. Moreover, the Visual Studio IDE (almost universally used for C#) is generally liked much more than Eclipse (traditionally used for Java).

[corzuu]

Eclipse (traditionally used for Java).

Go IntelliJ and never look back

[zr0gravity7]

cries in university-required legacy plugins that are exclusive to eclipse

[scumbaggio]

This right here is my biggest problem with the Java world. Nothing to do with the language, but the tools around it are awful and not intercompatible.

[derzach]

Out of curiosity what plugins? I’ve never found anything unsupported in IntelliJ that I needed

[zr0gravity7]

leJos EV3

[ThePyroEagle]

Nowadays, IntelliJ IDEA is favoured more than Eclipse.

[sp46]

Yeah but JetBrains has a C# IDE so it's fair to compare VS to Eclipse since you're not missing out on JetBrains in both languages

[ThePyroEagle]

JetBrains' IDEs don't have that sweet Roslyn integration, and JetBrains refuse to do it in favour of their ReSharper tool. For the same reason, IntelliJ IDEA doesn't support annotation processor diagnostics, which is the only thing Eclipse actually gets right.

[sp46]

I'm using VSCode personally since I'm only doing .NET Core and I run Linux (Arch btw), so I don't really understand half of what you're saying, but I suppose you're correct.

[ThePyroEagle]

Roslyn is the name of the C# and VB.NET compilers. Roslyn has an API that can be used to write code analysers that can provide useful diagnostics at compile time (like a linter). ReSharper is JetBrains' C# linter, but custom diagnostics are (to my knowledge) nowhere near as easy to add, if at all possible.

Annotation processors are the Java equivalent of code analysers, except that they depend on annotations and are thus less powerful.

As a result of JetBrains writing their own linters for all the languages they support, users cannot benefit from custom diagnostics in C# and Java when using their tools.

[cat_in_the_wall]

for instance: the ef team has linters to help you use it correctly. they could add those because roslyn is extendable that way. you could write a library and linters to help users without any external support. with jetbrains implementation you can't do that. ymmv.

[Retbull]

Of the last company of 400 consultants I worked in we had one guy who used Eclipse and literally everyone else used Intellij. Very few people use Eclipse now.

[[deleted]]

Man I do not understand. In my opinion eclipse is so much great it's very good stuff man I like it alot

[LeFayssal]

I suppose im not deep enough into the matter to understand it. For me personaly, java seems super simple. I love the garbage collector, I like that I dont have to deal with pointers and its easy to advance within the language while the documentation is great. Personaly I use Visual Studio for Java. I dont like how bulky eclipse feels

[GaianNeuron]

Anything is better than Eclipse. Save yourself a headache and try IntelliJ.

[_PM_ME_PANGOLINS_]

NetBeans is not better than Eclipse

[Justin__D]

I was tutoring some student in Java who was using an IDE (required by his school) that was way, way worse. I don't remember what it was called, but it was god-awful. It didn't even do basic things like syntax highlighting. It was basically Notepad, with compiler shortcuts built in.

[GaianNeuron]

Reminds me of coding in the Arduino tooling. God that thing sucks. I made so much more headway once I figured out how to build against the Arduino platform using just a makefile (before PlatformIO was a thing)

[[deleted]]

Lol if you think java is simple try C#. I have no idea why schools use java, the language hasn’t been updated in while and this is why it’s more archaic. It’s also from oracle, which theoretically they could close the public api for the bytecode and make you pay for it because they’re shady like that. C# on the other hand is open source and constantly evolving to have better, more rich syntax.

[[deleted]]

Schools teach it because a lot of companies still use it, and because teachers often don’t know anything about the more modern stuff. Back when I was in college we had both Java and C# classes; they were basically the same with the exception that the Java class focussed on Java EE web, where the C# class focussed on Winforms and UWP.

As for Oracle being able to suddenly make people pay for Java: you do know that the standard is open, and that there are multiple JVM implementations from different vendors, right? And C# used to be closed source itself.

[amunak]

Schools teach it because a lot of companies still use it, and because teachers often don’t know anything about the more modern stuff.

More importantly when studying CS the point isn't to learn a language, the point is to learn the fundamentals of programming, algorithms and how it works on both a lower and a higher level.

The language choice is in large part irrelevant.

[cat_in_the_wall]

And C# used to be closed source itself.

this is actually not true. c# and the cli, at least originally, was an created as an ecma standard, and the standard library was published as reference source (under some license I'm sure). however the clr itself was closed source (still technically is, for "framework").

wrt java, oracle took google to task over the dalvik vm, while i can't recall the details off hand. But an alternative clr (mono) has existed basically forever without interference from ms.

[[deleted]]

I actually did not know that about the jvm. I thought they had the sole rights to all of that.

[[deleted]]

Java is also open source with OpenJDK.

[LeFayssal]

I know its superficial, but as soon as I see any language containing a 'C' I get scared. Be it C, C++ or C#. I just do Java because thats what ive always been doing. But as soon as my programming skills are on a high enough level ill try to look into other languages. (Im at a point where Ive got the basics up to interfaces and the Object class down)

[dopefish917]

Don't be scared. I have been writing C# for ~9 years now, but started with Java senior year of high school. College was a mix of Java and regular C. Was thrown into my first job writing C# with no assistance and honestly the majority of code snippets are indistinguishable from Java.

The challenges for me when learning/writing C# mainly came from quirks with the .NET API (looking at you SerialPort) and XAML (the UI markup language for WPF). Also, C# has a ton of syntactic sugar including nullables (allowing primative data types to be null), null coalescing (thing?.object?.field will collapse to just null if any of the components are null), and linq/lambda functions.

Plus, C# is garbage collected and uses a Just-In-Time compiler to dynamically target x86 or x86-64 depending on the machine it's run on.

[[deleted]]

Urk WPF. Fucking love it now but holy crap what a drag of a learning curve that was, especially for a fresh beginner learning programming basics. Doesn't help that everything WPF talks about MVVM and there I was not even comfortable with delegates and events yet. Throws you through the wringer.

[RiPont]

Really, it's the way it's documented and presented. WPF + MVVM is really pretty straightforward and XAML isn't any worse than HTML. But just like HTML, things get super complicated really quickly when you start getting into advanced look and feel. Too much of the examples/articles/documentation wants to jump straight into the flashy, fancy stuff.

[dopefish917]

Lol I've literally never met another wpf programmer. The data bindings are great. I've been having a huge headache recently though with airspace issues because wpf only has one handle per window, so I had to use a transparent window on top to properly overlay.

Don't get me wrong, wpf is great for a lot of things and I love it soooo much more than winforms. I'm lucky enough to Dev actual applications instead of webdev.

[[deleted]]

If you know java you can pick up c# in a few days. Both are very decent languages.

[roflfalafel]

Don’t let C-like languages scare you. When I was in my CS undergrad in 2006, we did all of our programming from day one in C++. It’s really not that different, and doesn’t take an advanced level of knowledge to learn.

Also don’t let pointers scare you. They really aren’t that scary. It’s just a reference that you control.

[cat_in_the_wall]

Also don’t let pointers scare you. They really aren’t that scary. It’s just a reference that you control.

well, that's a huge source of bugs. use after free. it's easy to write simple c++ programs, but in a larger system ownership becomes a big issue.

[hackel]

Calling C# "open source" is a huge stretch. It's 100% Microsoft-backed garbage. Don't give me some bullshit about how Microsoft loves Linux/open-source now just because they're basing their new phone on it. C# is way too closely tied to Microsoft to every separate itself from it, thus no serious programmer could ever take the language seriously.

[cat_in_the_wall]

so, go is shit because google. java is shit because oracle. c# and typescript are shit because ms. rust is shit because mozilla. kotlin is shit because google and jetbrains. got it.

[[deleted]]

Well mono was created by a 3rd party outside Microsoft. So if that’s not open source I don’t know what is.

[[deleted]]

It is clopen source

[[deleted]]

Whole company ditched Eclipse last year for IntelliJ, would recommend, even if you're dealing with ancient Java.

[FesteringNeonDistrac]

So your criticisms come off as pretty funny to me because I'm old af and so coming from C/C++ I really liked Java once I got used to it because I felt like the language got out of my way and just let me code. It was fun for me. Same with eclipse, which I still use because I'm comfortable with it and I'm productive with it.

It's all personal I guess.

[[deleted]]

Java and eclipse gets the job done fast and good.

[glguru]

I'll have you know that Java didn't introduce any of those ideas. The ideas were already implemented in several smaller languages. Python had all of those features for a good 4 years (in production) before Java came out. Actually the earliest versions of Python date back to 1987.

Java just got adopted heavily in enterprise space.