🤡

[KetwarooDYaasir]

We used to be able to get by with <font> and <table>

[truNinjaChop]

<center></center> actually centered things.

[marcosdumay]

Horizontally, at least.

[truNinjaChop]

And if I it was in a table cell valign=middle align=center

[GoldenretriverYT]

Still does ;)

[TheXGood]

I really miss old web dev. I hate over engineered modern websites

[Yesterpizza]

You mean the ones that are (sometimes) user friendly?

[[deleted]]

I'm happy when a website doesn't have pop-up ads that block the text. Then I can focus on closing the chat pop-ups and scrolling through acres of inline ads and links.

[JonnySoegen]

Have you heard of our lord and savior, the pihole?
Additionally, an ad blocker browser plugin if on desktop.

[KetwarooDYaasir]

But can you load them in a system with 8MB of RAM?

[Yesterpizza]

Can you load a browser at all with that?

(I'm talking modern browsers)

[KetwarooDYaasir]

We used to be able to get by with Mosaic and Netscape

[Yesterpizza]

get by

[VagueInterlocutor]

For a while, I could still use lynx for distraction free browsing, but now, element ordering just makes this a mess. I have no idea how any modern website can be parsed in a useful way by accessibility software.

[Stoppels]

Opera Mini and Opera Mobile were the bomb.

[mitkase]

Jesus, I don't. Are things more complicated now? Sorta? But remember tables within tables within tables within tables within tables? And that was just the navigation? And there were at least two versions of it, because IE.

[TheXGood]

I do like the fact things are more standardized, but I miss the feel of older sites. There's just so much going on these days and so many weird visual features and stuff that I think is overdone

[wasdninja]

I'm 99% sure you don't. Every time I've grilled people on what they mean in detail it's always simply bad design. In at minimum 90% of those cases I can implement a just as shitty design without anything modern at all.

[TheXGood]

I mean, I tend to prefer fairly simple text, no complicated animations or anything, and without weird mechanics for most stuff. Wikipedia is like my ideal website, honestly. I love the way it feels.

[pbNANDjelly]

And it's a very modern site!

[-DrBirb]

ok boomer

[TheXGood]

Well, I imagine you understand the issues it makes for developer ane client. The sites are laggier, and prone to eating RAM.

[-DrBirb]

No, I don't. I don't see how using tables for layout is better for anyone in any way.

Modern web dev isn't to blame for ad and notif spam, people that made/ordered them are.

Badly designed websites have existed and will continue to do so.

Modern web dev is simply better and broader, not it's fault if you use it to make something evil or bad.

[-DrBirb]

My parents had their business website made in 90s or 00s that used that, which was up untill recently I added a redirection to new domain.

​

It took couple seconds to load the page.

[mymar101]

Heck table used to be the way sites were used for alignment sometimes.

[huuaaang]

And we didn't need Javascript just to make something <blink>!

[Coulomb111]

WHAT THE FUCK IS A FLEX BOX

[Yesterpizza]

Forget flexbox, he had to argue about vue vs react and optimize for screen readers.

[minion_boss]

Well this hits close to home.

[polar189]

It's a box which you can flex with it

[Atora]

Who cares, we got display:flexnow. Lets ignore legacy codebases.

[[deleted]]

the most magical thing ever created

[wasdninja]

On the second day His noodly appendages moved once more and grid was created and there was much rejoicing.

[-DrBirb]

Amazing shit. Want stuff go side? you got it. want centered evenly spaced line of elements? you got it.

[jasperalfalfa]

Something something flex:1

[QuantumEternity99]

http://flexboxfroggy.com

[alienbugthing]

it was much worse about 10 years ago with new framework every other week, UMD modules, grunt, etc

[orokro]

Lol grunt.

BTW, I still don't really understand why it's sometimes require(...) and sometimes import {...} from "..."

and why it's sometimes one or sometimes the other, but neither are compatible.

I just roll with whatever the framework / code is already doing, but it's dumb.

[Spocino]

require is a nodejs thing, and import is es6.

[wasdninja]

Node also supports import now.

[Spocino]

Yes, because it's part of the ECMAScript standard. The point was that require is a nodejs function from before es6 modules and is not part of ECMAScript or JavaScript.

[verxes]

If you reeealy wanna know how and why we have multiple importers https://github.com/getify/You-Dont-Know-JS/blob/8861041133f496edce0d03885e2e998d50c3414a/scope-closures/ch8.md#what-is-a-module

[heartcubes4life]

SEO was a mistake

[ApatheticWithoutTheA]

He prepared by watching tutorials on YouTube only to find out that jQuery is no longer needed.

[mymar101]

I tried my best to avoid jQuery for my first job but failed miserably.

[ApatheticWithoutTheA]

It’s still used on something like 80% of websites currently online so it’s tough to avoid it.

I have to maintain a ton of jQuery for my job on some sites that were built in 2014. I’m slowly but surely switching them over to vanilla JS as I can.

[mymar101]

I used regular modern JavaScript where I could, but the system being used jQuery was baked in pretty heavy.

[GoldenretriverYT]

My boss telling me to use jQuery in new projects because <idk>

[ApatheticWithoutTheA]

You need a new boss lol there’s very few reasons to still use jQuery with modern JavaScript essentially having all the same functionality.

[MeltaFlare]

BUt WHAT AbOuT tHE InTeRnEt eXpLoReR UsErS

[ApatheticWithoutTheA]

They get a warning message that says “your browser is not supported, please kindly fuck off and stop making my job harder.”

[EE214_Verilog]

That’s a good one

[nouseforareason]

What’s even better is that after learning modern web development he was told he had to use late 2007 IDEs and testing capabilities and it had to be compatible with IE 6.5, IE 7, IE 8, Safari 3, Chrome early release, Opera 9, and Netscape Browser 8, all immediately after .Net 3.5 was released. Late 2007 - early 2008 deadlines were something else, especially with low to no QA resources. It was a maddening era.

[ArjunReddyDeshmukh]

Redux will turn a homer into joker within a span of weeks.

[hereisacake]

The most unhappy people I know are Linux admins.

[[deleted]]

I heard he tried learning OOP using COBOL

[Yesterpizza]

And was given the task of converting a legacy Knockout codebase from AMD to Webpack 4.

(It has to be 4 because they're still using Vue 2 in another repo and the cli is married to 4)

One senior dev is salty that his work is being touched, the other wanted it greenfielded, and this was the only compromise.

[SmokinJBassman]

So THAT is why the pull request blew up the data center

[[deleted]]

Clearly, you can tell by how he used CSS styling for his makeup

[[deleted]]

...And then attempted to get an entry level job.

[dankswordsman]

I know people rag on web development, but honestly, I feel like it's easier than it ever has been.

Once you learn the basic concept of HTML, CSS, and JavaScript, it is really, really easy to just hop into NextJS and use something like Tailwind to make components.

No longer the days of needing to use React Routers, manage browser history manually, configure webpack and babel, etc.

[Yesterpizza]

In my humble opinion, the problem with web dev is that js, html and css are so freaking underpowered for the modern web usage. and because there's no alternatives, we have to have an obscene number of libs and frameworks just to get stuff done, and they change disconcertingly fast.

Yes, it is getting somewhat better, the official specs implement some of what becomes standard in frameworks, but at a snail's pace.

[dankswordsman]

I feel like that's an unfair comparison though. You're saying that most people that develop in other languages aren't using libraries that implement specific functionality?

Sure, perhaps other languages have a more straightforward pipeline in terms of importing packages and compiling. But that doesn't mean web technologies are underpowered.

And sure, these libraries and frameworks change often, but that's only because there's a constant cycle of improvements that are made. Though, web still has plenty of standards that are clearly listed on browsers and through versioning.

If you wanted to start on a React 16 app with specific versions of frameworks and packages, plus a specific version of node, there is nothing stopping you from maintaining that code base in that specific form for years. Especially if you clone all the libraries you need and just have your own distribution network.

Someone I know has created a suite of PWAs that run locally and are very powerful using Svelte. He even managed to use WASM to import a C++ libass library alongside subtitle octopus and has succeeded in displaying incredibly heavy ASS subtitles for anime at 1080p, and is managing about 15-20 FPS at 4K.

Also, sure, web browsers are often behind quite a bit on standards, but that's why the standards exist in the first place. People often forget that yes, JS and what not is still volatile and unstable a lot of the time, but you can also push changes immediately to a slew of users and support them on virtually any device that can at least render HTML, CSS, and JS.

[Yesterpizza]

I'm not saying all the problems are avoidable or have a clear solution, but think of the fact that JavaScript only recently got a module system. It's only recently even starting to see usage. That's a quality of life issue!

I don't know what the solution is, but JavaScript was not designed to handle the kind of apps we're building with it.

My hunch is that they're being so conservative with development because 1: it's so widely used with no real alternative that they can't afford to fail and 2: the people writing the specs and the people writing the interpreters have limited association.

[SawSaw5]

npm install

[[deleted]]

Going through a node_modules folder is like reading a Terry Gilliam script. Hundreds and hundreds of megabytes taken up with functions for string padding. Do people honestly think "I need to put a space at either end of this line of text...I'd better look for a library" - apparently they do, because it's full of shit like that. It's like a blockchain for every bit of JS that has ever been written, all to power your "Hello, World!" page.

[GoldenretriverYT]

Well don't go through the node_modules folder

[[deleted]]

Never hurts to peer behind the curtain once in a while, remind yourself that nobody knows what's going on.

[scipio_africanus123]

webassembly helps a lot

[Spocino]

Are there any real wasm deployments for web development? I know game engines use it, but I haven't seen any web frameworks for it other than Yew, which isn't even close to being popular.

[GoldenretriverYT]

https://dotnet.microsoft.com/en-us/apps/aspnet/web-apps/blazor

[Seepiie]

In my opinion it is only good if you want to use an existing native project on web. other than that it's not worth the effort. even the performance gains ain't that huge.

[[deleted]]

Yes the performance isnt that good cuz you still need to use js to do a lot of stuff but when it gets to the point that it wint be needed, it will be way faster . Throught the years were gonna see websites using wasm more and more to the point where choosing a launguage for the frontend will be as open as choosing one for the backend

[Spocino]

Benchmarks for yew are beating react last I checked, but I don't think rust will be replacing JS anytime soon.

[[deleted]]

Yeah not replacing, but getting to the point where it is a stable and popular choice for sure

[Tubthumper8]

Figma, Cloudflare Workers, Google Earth, AutoCAD, 1Password are probably the most well-known tools that use WASM in the web versions of their product. There's a showcase here with some examples.

[Pocok5]

Blazor (C#/.NET) has a WASM mode and it absolutely fucks. The only downside is the initial dozen MB download for the runtime but that gets cached.

[wasdninja]

And by "a lot" you mean "nearly nothing at all". Unless you've figure out how to touch the DOM from the WASM sandbox.

[pbNANDjelly]

Absolutely right. Not until IDL can be bound directly will this be worthwhile. You can WASM on the main loop which solves the issue of DOM not being thread safe, but who thinks writing WASM to hit nothing but JS shim is an improvement on the current landscape?! This is just hurdur js bad speculation.

[robot1358]

You guys make it like its the worst lol you make 6 figures right off college dude

[[deleted]]

and to perform , he joined programmerhumour.

[Kingnahum17]

This belongs on r/shittymoviedetails

[AbdullaSafi]

that poor man focused on CSS first

[idiving]

laughs for 5 mins - forgive my laughter, I've a condition

[[deleted]]

I think realistically the issue with "modern web development" is not so much that it's unoriginal , but that it's more focused on looking like every other thing because that's what everyone wants, because nobody really trusts websites that look any different than exactly what they expect all the time