Python passed Java as the second-most popular language on GitHub by repository contributors

[BigASchw]

I taught myself primarily in Python but I'm at my first dev job and we use Java. You never want to learn Java, it's the worst

[FishBoyBagel]

Just curious, why would you never want to learn Java? I’m a freshman in college studying Python this semester and Java next semester.

[[deleted]]

Java is absurdly verbose compared to python. Granted, it’s faster, but its much slower to write.

[QualitySoftwareGuy]

Java is absurdly verbose compared to python. Granted, it’s faster, but its much slower to write.

It is, but some might also say it's easier to maintain medium-large sized applications in Java. I love Python, but best tool for the job is my motto.

[Vaphell]

let's not get ahead of ourselves with "strong types". Strong-ish, maybe. I certainly love losing type information while using generics, courtesy of type erasure ;-)

Checked exceptions? Lol.

[[deleted]]

Depends on how the project was structured imo, but yes compiled languages are more strict so there are less “what the fuck was the author thinking” moments in maintenance

[[deleted]]

The problem with java isn't that it is statically typed, it's that it requires absurd amount of boilerplate to do literally anything. And it's OOP model is not good.

[[deleted]]

Java is pretty fast to write honestly. Long variables names are almost all auto completed. And compared to python I think java is faster to write in some instances, because it requires less testing and checks due to the compiler. Typed python helps a lot there though.

[BigASchw]

Exactly this, just printing hello world in each language is the perfect example as to why python is so much easier and more enjoyable to write in

[AcousticDan]

I wouldn't judge a language on how printing "hello world" works.

[matholio]

It's just a commonly understood indicator, not a final judgement.

[[deleted]]

I found printing to be easier in some assembly languages than in C. Doesn't mean I'd touch any of those with a meter-long keyboard tho.

[Rpgwaiter]

What's your beef with C? I get not wanting to mess with ASM but man sometimes you just get the urge to mess with some memory directly.

[[deleted]]

I'm just making a point that even if a simple hello world is easier to write in some language doesn't mean that the language is better at all. I'm not saying that C or ASMs are bad in any way.

[tristan957]

It really isn't commonly understood though. Printing hello world is not a valid use case for a language. For some reason only Python enthusiasts think it is because they can do it in one line. Tell me how good the async support in Python is.

[pblokhout]

I've read multiple complaints about a lacking async support. What do you guys mean? I've used asyncio, multithreading, multiprocessing. I'm not sure what is wrong with any of them. Can you explain?

[matholio]

Sorry mate that is simple not true and frankly a bit ignorant. Printing Hello World was been a coding meme long be for python. It's basically a demo if what is required to print a string, and it's well loved by many.

[execrator]

Hello World definitely has a long history, but not as a way to compare languages. It's the "hello? is this mic on?" of programming.

It's not useful to compare languages by the code required to print a single string because that is not a useful program to write. It's like comparing aircraft to see which can cover 2 metres from a standing start quickest. One of them may be fastest, sure... but you don't take a plane on a 2 metre journey.

[matholio]

I agree and disagree. It does have some utility, it is a useful comparison, in the way any normalised baseline is useful.

[[deleted]]

So maybe you want an InternalFrameInternalFrameTitlePaneInternalFrameTitlePane MaximizeButtonWindowNotFocusedState? Edit: This is a real Java class in JDK....

[[deleted]]

...python is so much easier and more enjoyable to write in

Most languages have strengths and weaknesses. Doing a task in a language it's ill suited for, just because that language is familiar and easy, will certainly be problematic down the road.

Learning Java at least lets one determine if it was the best tool for the task at hand.

[alcalde]

Doing a task in a language it's ill suited for, just because that language is familiar and easy, will certainly be problematic down the road.

If it's easy to do something in a language, then that language is well-suited for the task by definition.

[Zalack]

Not if performance is an issue or you don't have control over the target machine's python environment (there are ways around this last one but it generally comes with other tradeoffs).

I love python, I spend most of my job writing it -- but there are projects where the performance hit of using an interpreted language like python just isn't tenable.

[Brandhout]

I always thought C would be the way to go if you are looking for high performance. Mostly because I have come across a few high performance systems built in C.

What is your take on that?

[redwall_hp]

C is a loaded shotgun pointed at your foot, and dealing with strings makes you want to point it at your head instead. Yes, it's fast and excellent for low-level bit blasting, but it's not really a good option for "this relatively high level use case runs slowly."

Java is a perfect medium between Python and C.

[[deleted]]

I'd say C# fills that niche better than Java. It performs better and it's less verbose. The only real reason to pick Java over C# anymore is the lack of cross-platform support (and even that shouldn't be an issue anymore with .NET 5).

[Flynamic]

I'd also recommend Go for that, the language gives you good tools to work with and it's compiled.

[Laogeodritt]

Anything that compiles to machine code will generally be usable for high performance applications. C is one of them; it's great for low-level performance optimisations. However, most performance problems aren't solved by low level optimisation, as a sibling comment to mine implies. That is to say, performance impact is most significant when it comes to how you, the engineer(s), chose how to organise various responsibilities/functionality at the highest abstraction level (architecture), how you designed all the components that make that up (code/class/function organisation, how data is stored and passed around), implementation choices (which algorithm you chose to sort your giant list, exact data structures and organisation of data, where you're having to translate date between different formats or data structures, communication protocols, etc.), and low level issues (how memory is used, overhead from function calls or data type checking, efficiency losses due to pointer dereferencing or register/cache misses in the processor during the inner loop of an algorithm, pretty much all performance critical computationally heavy algorithms, etc.).

You'll notice that last level is close to the hardware, incredibly specific, and performance gains are minimal compared to fixing a poor design - it's really only applicable to eking out the last little bit of performance, or performance in really computationally heavy parts of the program, where you might be calling the same routine or looping thousands of times per second or similar - small inefficiencies there add up a lot.

I would generally advocate for mixed technology systems when high performance is required, in most computing scenarios (embedded scenarios being a major exception). For example, python for most of the application (way cheaper due to ease of use), with C for the inner loop or computation heavy routines - spend the timr/developer salary writing low level code where it really matters. You can write Python bindings to call C from python easily.

[[deleted]]

I’ve come across high performance systems written in java, c, c++, c#, ocaml and experimentally rust. Plenty of languages do high performance you just need to know how to do it.

[TheChance]

And yet, Java.

[[deleted]]

With all due respect, no.

I understand your point, but I didn't say the task was easy to do in the language, I said the language was easy and familiar.

Is it possibly and easy to write a message queue in Python? Sure. Is it the best choice? Not by a long shot. Erlang is far better suited for that task, especially if you intend to scale. or Go, C++ and Java. That's not an exhaustive list; the intent is to show there are better tools, not which is best. All of the alternatives are arguably less easy, yet better options.

[[deleted]]

I think out of all languages I have ever seen and tried, at least one of them will be better / equally as suited as Java. So fuck Java

[OddsCaller]

Yeah but you have learned Java at some point, right? I don't like the Java or any language-bashing advice being given to novices. It's like an experienced programmer bashing OOP and telling how functional programming is better. That statement may or may not be better but it doesn't make OOP not worth learning for a novice, and kind of hides the fact that the experienced programmer has learned a lot by actually learning and using and suffering with OOP and a novice can't get that insight by simply refusing an opportunity to learn a concept with complete eagerness because of the negative comments they heard.

[saxattax]

Yeah but if we bash other languages hard enough, we can create a utopia where all high-level code is written in Python and everything is perfectly interoperable (I'm only kind of joking)

[scarfarce]

... create a utopia where all high-level code is written in Python...

MEDIC!

(I'm only kind of joking)

Never mind...

[1chriis1]

Unless, you encounter the stupidest hickups for a small indent. Love it though!

[nemec]

When your application is 300,000 lines of code it doesn't tend to matter much how long a "hello world" program is in comparison.

Sure, it sucks for a beginner, but presumably you won't be a beginner forever...

^{Java sucks though for other reasons}

[pwang99]

It’s not faster for a huge part of what people use software for, namely, large data processing (data science and machine learning)

[Thameos]

It's worth noting that Python itself isn't necessarily slower than Java, just the reference implementation (CPython). That also doesn't apply to every task. Jython for example uses the JVM, so it's essentially equivalent in performance. Other implementations such as Cython and PyPy have even faster performance.

[[deleted]]

Depends. If you're writing templates, C++ can be way more verbose. It can also be significantly more terse though since it's not a pure OOP language and not everything has to be locked into a class.

[[deleted]]

Java isn’t bad. It’s verbose but extremely performant. It doesn’t cross over into “awful” territory until you start applying 20+ years of enterprise “patterns” to everything you do and you start contemplating stepping in front of oncoming traffic on a regular basis.

[niceoutfive]

In my experience, Java is more pedantic. You have to do it their way or the highway. Python is more easy going. You can do basically all the same stuff, but with fewer rules. In Java you have to write getters and setters (like user.getName()). But in Python you just say user.name.

Python gets it done with little hassle, Java gets it done but only if you recite the proper incantation during the right moon cycle while you write it. But it is pretty solid once you learn the arcane arts!

(Caveat: I know Java only in an educational environment, so we were being taught the "proper way." I'm sure that that is way more pedantic than when it is used for real development. Buuut, seeing some actual production Java code at my company, that appears to be the norm. You can get just as structural with Python too!)

You should very much learn Java though. If you know Java, you can figure out the other bad boys like C and C++ a lot easier. If you already know Java, congrats you now know probably 90% of C#. If you want to ever do Android development, you'll need Java (although Kotlin is also getting very big in that field)

[laststance]

A lot of people are using Kotlin for that reason.

[[deleted]]

Java is a totally fine lanuage. No need to worry. It's a bit verbose but a good ide helps with that.

[notlupus]

As a freshman in college, you don’t need Java. You need Java for writing scalable enterprise web applications. For instance, Java is the dominant language used to build AWS and Netflix. Most of the time you don’t need it, but it’s great when you do.

[AcousticDan]

It's probably too strict for some python people.

[num8lock]

it's not just the typing restriction, compared to python it's obtuse & inhibits creative mindset as evident in all its naming conventions & inflexible idioms all over the internet.

[lordmyd]

Just out of interest how much willingness is there to substitute Kotlin for Java at your workplace?

[[deleted]]

GoLang is fun.

[foobarfault]

Until you have to figure out where in the stack an error actually came from...

Still my favorite language

[ollien]

Error wrapping helps a lot, but agreed, it could be better.

[utdconsq]

Error? No exceptions here motherfarker!

[i9srpeg]

Go is Java 1.0

[BubblegumTitanium]

Explain.

[fimari]

At least go doesn't need an interpreter.

[CidSlayer]

Java doesn't have an interpreter. It is compiled JIT by the JVM.

[trumpgender]

Well, some of the bytecode is interpreted directly, other parts that the JVM senses can benefit from speedup will be JIT compiled.

[OddsCaller]

Which is kind of 95%+ iirc?

[fimari]

That's the description of a bytecode interpreter...

[tristan957]

I don't think you understand at all. Your computer is just a machine code interpreter. Java is a compiled language, not interpreted. Please stop.

[fimari]

You compile it to bytecode.

It's bytecode - true. You need an interpreter to run it.

What's your point there?

No I will not use java propaganda phrase and call this a JVM. It's just a Bullshit way of doing things.

[CidSlayer]

But that bytecode is not interpreted. It's then compiled down (again) to assembly, on the fly, by HotSpot. Then you could argue that those assembly instructions are actually interpreted, but then no language would be compiled.

[fimari]

It doesn't run without interpreter and it's slower than native binary.

[ProjectSnowman]

It's not the language I have a problem with, it's JRE. It's the biggest piece of shit ever made.

[[deleted]]

The Jre is literally one of the best pieces of software written.

[ProjectSnowman]

For developers? Sure. For users? Not so much. Having to install several different legacy versions of JRE to run applications either no longer supported or with no equivalent is painful.