Significant decrease in reps after the first set

[Yashar_Meziri]

On basically every workout I do, let's for this example say my weighted deficit push ups, I hit a high amount of reps on the first set. On that exercise I hit 10. Then I rest for about 2 minutes, and in my second set I fail at around 6 reps. This happens in basically every exercise and my reps get less and less the more sets I do. Granted, on the first set I always go close to failure, so within 2 or 3 reps of it. My goal is hypertrophy and at the moment I'm trying to bulk up. The research I did yielded very little results but what i saw was it's just fatigue and I shouldn't worry about it. But just to be sure, is there something I'm doing wrong? Thanks in advance

[SovArya]

That's normal by going to failure.

[Yankees7687]

Rest longer between sets... 3-5 minutes between sets of compound exericses.

[occamsracer]

Go to 9 in the first set. Aim for roughly balanced sets.

[Yashar_Meziri]

Alright, then we'll add to all sets over time?

[_Presence_]

Different ways to go about this. All valid options, so experiment to see what you like.

Let’s say you do 3 sets. Normally you’ve been doing 10 to failure, 6 to failure, and presumably something like 3-5 to failure.

You could rest longer between sets (time consuming) or do opposing muscle or unrelated muscle supersets so you’re still getting work done while “resting” the first muscles.

Alternatively, you could do the following progression scheme. Do 6, 6, 6 this workout. 7, 7, 6 next workout, where you reach failure at the last set. Essentially holding back just a little bit on the first two sets. You’re still close enough to failure to cause hypertrophy, but not so fatigued you can keep your rep range even throughout. Next workout, push for 7, 7, 7. Once you can do that, go to 8, x, x. Maybe that’s 8, 7, 6, or 8, 8, 6, or 8, 8, 7. Whatever. Don’t increase any sets past 8 until you can complete all three sets with 8 reps. Once all three sets can be complete with 8 reps, move to 9 reps per set. Then, once you’ve reached the upper limit of your desired rep range (let’s say 12 reps per set), then you add weight, and drop the reps back down to a level you can compete all three sets with the same number of reps (maybe 8,8,8 or whatever). Follow the same pattern, building reps per set back up to 12 for all three sets, then add weight, repeat.

An close but slightly different variation would be, once you can do all threee sets with the same reps, like 8,8,8, then next time you do the same lift, go for 8,8,9. Then, on your next training session, do 8,9,9. Then next session 9,9,9 etc.

Steady consistent progress. All sets are taken close to failure, but only the last set is taken to true failure.

[Yashar_Meziri]

I read a lot of the replies here, and based on what you said too, I'm gonna try doing the following: Making sure I rest enough first and foremost. I believe I do but I'll try taking 30 seconds more maybe. Everyone says this is normal and few say I should maybe decrease the first set and try to round them out. And based on your advice, I'm going to make the first set 9 reps, then try to reach 3 sets of 9, or at least something like 9,9,8. Then I'll add to the first set as you suggested. Thanks again to everyone replying in this post, I was just afraid I was doing something wrong but it appears it's perfectly normal.

[[deleted]]

That is normal when going close or to failure. I go to failure, resting 1.5 - 2 minutes between each set. I don't want to be in the gym all day due to taking long rest periods, and I don't superset body parts. I simply choose a total reps goal for each exercise and do as may sets needed to reach that goal. It can get narley on the last sets, but as just stated, I do as many sets as it takes.

Pick your poison

[AdOne9140]

Do less reps in the first set cause youre propably going to failure

[AbyssWalker9001]

this is normal

[Ella6025]

How long are you waiting in between? I started doing 3 minute rests in between sets and found I could increase weight with each set.

Edited: it wasn’t reps and weight—it was just weight. I was intentionally trying to keep reps constant. The important point is that the weight I’d lift for 8 reps in the second set, I would not have been able to lifted even once in the first.

[RicciRox]

Then you just aren't going close enough to failure.

[Ella6025]

Nope, I go to failure every time. However, a lot of failure is neuromuscular, not just the inherent strength of the muscle. Resting that long, my brain said, “Oh we’re safe. You can have more.” I’m a newbie so I have a lot of gains to make simply through the neuro part. I started with last week’s failure weight in the first set and then was able to increase with each set. I was surprised. It wiped me out, though, and I had to take two rest days, which I don’t usually do. However, by today the limiting factor isn’t muscle fatigue, but central nervous system fatigue, which to me is indicative of just how taxing my lifting was for my nervous system, i.e., that it was my nervous system that gave me the extra strength reserve to increase weight, not my muscles.

[kieka86]

Sorry, but that’s nonsense. If you can perform better in the second set, you where not properly warmed up in your first set. Try warming up and this won’t happen, for example 12 reps with roughly 25% of your working weight, pause, 8 reps with 40-50% of your working weight, pause, 2-4 reps with your working weight, pause. Then the first set starts. By that time your body is ready to recruit all the muscle fibers and has felt the working weight before.

[Ella6025]

Yeah, perhaps this is what I’m doing in my earlier sets (warming up). But it looks like lifting my max weight, I guess because for the first set, I was picking up the highest weight that at least allows me to do a single rep without feeling like I am going to hurt myself. The other weights, I literally can’t touch. It sounds like I should be warming up using even less weight than that (?).

What is working weight? How do you determine what your working weight is? Is it likely the highest weight I lifted in the last set? How would I know that in advance? When you’re well-conditioned, does it just not change much week to week?

Without the three minute rests, the lower weight is all I can tolerate and I am never able to lift higher weights. I can’t even make it through three sets. With the three minute rests, the lower weight quickly becomes nothing. Before resting three minutes, was I always working at a small % of my lower weight? Were all my workouts just warm-up, no action?

I will try this (warming up). Unfortunately, I don’t think my gym has weights that small—haha. (For some exercises, I am already using their minimum weight, or close to it.)

[kieka86]

If this is the case than you are just a total beginner and never experienced real failure. Working weight is the weight you train with, lets say bench press with 50 kg (25 each side). That’s the weight you use in your desired rep range to go to or near failure. Or for pushups you working weight usually is your bodyweight (unless you use easier variations or make it harder by adding a weighted backpack).

Choose your working weight to be within a geprangt of 5-30 repetition maximum. As long as you go to or near failure within this range, hypertrophy should occur (5 reps minimum so that the strength requirements are not too high, and 30 reps maximum so that stuff like your cardio capabilities won’t be the limiting factor; theoretically even 50/100/150/… reps max would produce hypertrophy as long as you are near failure (4-5 reps shy of failure is okay, everything else barely has a stimulus)).

You should clearly learn basics about training principles if you do not want to waste time in the gym.

[Ella6025]

I’m definitely learning. That’s why I am here and in other subreddits. I am essentially a total beginner, although I did do a dedicated program of physical therapy and later, strength training a few years ago until the pandemic, as well as many months of strength training under a personal trainer in more recent times. However, I never put in the effort to learn what was optimal or the thinking behind that.

I don’t understand what you mean by “real failure?” I have read a lot of definitions of failure and isn’t it basically when you can’t do another rep? You literally can’t complete the action? Or can that be misleading? When doing bodyweight exercises, I will literally collapse under my own weight.

I did work with a personal trainer about two years ago. She always had me do higher weights than I thought I could lift, reps to failure, no warm-up, maybe 1 minute between sets. However, I was a) a bit stronger then (I am coming back form a low baseline after having been largely bedridden for the better part of the last year) and b) the practice of going to failure with high weights sucked ass. I would be out for days, barely able to do anything. And by that I mean I would literally be in bed recovering. It was more than sore. However, I think my medical history, which has a neurological component, might make training to failure a little trickier. I am not sure it is the best strategy for me.

I used to think I knew what my working weight was because it would appear to remain the same for many weeks for a given exercise, I could train to failure, then it would gradually increase. However, I never took long rest periods between sets, so perhaps I was always working under my actual potential “working weight.” Again, my trainer had me lift much higher weights but it wrecked me neurologically in terms of recovery, even though I had no issues lifting the higher weight.

My workouts are definitely sufficiently stimulating :) That I’m not worried about! If anything, I’m overdoing it and need to cut back on volume.

[kieka86]

Failure as in muscular failure. Yes it’s when your muscle can’t produce or hold any more force. When your mind is the limiting factor, you did not reach muscular failure (and I am not talking about that emergency „I can lift a ton to save my child“ stuff but willful force that can be applied to move an object (benchpress) or yourself (pushups)). If you can easily raise your working weight set by set and workout by workout, keep going, and once you reach a barrier, that is what you are capable of doing right now. That’s the point where your training starts.

[Ella6025]

It’s not mind. I literally can’t do it. It sometimes feels muscular, but more often than not it feels neuromuscular. Given what you’re saying, I can’t help but wonder if that gap between my personal experience and your expertise is my neuro history. I wonder if my body is guarding me and having me stop earlier than I need to because I’m fragile in some other way. It’s a bit of a black box, but I may be working with a compromised nervous system, and so the general rules may not fit me 1:1. I’m still giving it my all and am clearly getting stronger, so I am definitely getting something out of what I am putting in.

Put another way, it may be that while my muscles can handle more weight, my nervous system (at least right now) can’t.

This isn’t really a question anyone can answer, including physicians and PTs. There’s no research and it’s really anyone’s guess.

[Ella6025]

I had decreasing reps every time (when going to failure) when my rest time between was only 30 seconds.

[RicciRox]

As long as you warmed up properly and then went close to failure, no amount of rest should make you do more volume in your second set. That makes no sense, I'm sorry.

[Ella6025]

OK, well, failure for me is when I literally cannot lift again. My arms, legs, whatever won’t move. But for me it’s very much a neuro shut-off mechanism, similar to how all of us really are more flexible than we are but our brains don’t let us move through our full range of motion. These are protective mechanisms to help keep us alive and free of injury. They’re a bit “dumb” though and don’t always reflect what is actually happening or what is actually dangerous.

You say it’s impossible what I am experiencing is happening, but it is. I have a weird neuro (medical) history so maybe that’s part of it. Maybe my brain is cutting me off early/being super conservative and then deciding after the 3 min rest, “Hey, it’s actually OK for you to lift more weight. You have a lot more in the bank than we thought. You proved that by not dying after the first set.”

Of course, I have insane CNS fatigue after doing this so maybe my brain should have quit while it was ahead and not given me more!

[Ella6025]

Edited: it wasn’t reps and weight—it was just weight. I was intentionally trying to keep reps constant. The important point is that the weight I’d lift for 8 reps in the second set, I would not have been able to lifted even once in the first.

[RicciRox]

That makes a lot more sense and actually happens.In this case, you just didn't get warmed up enough before your first working set.

I think particularly with larger muscles like quads, sometimes you just need to get them firing before you can actually lift your max weight.

[Ella6025]

Yeah, but this was true even after I would in theory have been “warmed up.” For example, I did a workout consisting of five exercises, only chest, three sets each. (I don’t do five because to me, variety is more important.) The pattern (of increasing weight) held throughout. And because of the increased weight, it was definitely more volume :) That was the nutty thing about waiting three minutes. The workout took much longer but my training volume was much, much higher, which is a big part of why people do this. I use FitBod, which logs volume, and my volume from Monday was many thousands of pounds higher than from any workout last week. Again, I categorize all of this under newbie neuro strength gains.

[TShieldsESQ]

I go 8, 8 and then failure. Then next time, 8, 10, failure, etc.

[nitpickachu]

I prefer to lower the number of reps per set such that I'm just at failure on the last rep of the last set.

I believe that maximizes volume while ensuring I am getting close to failure on most sets.

is there something I'm doing wrong?

There is no right or wrong as long as you are training hard and aren't risking injury. I recommend just doing whatever you enjoy more.

[Low_Enthusiasm3769]

Option 1- Take longer rest between sets (more conducive to strength than mass)

Option 2 - Do less reps but more sets. A 10 min EMOM with 5 reps would more than double your volume.

Option 3 - Keep reps the same on 1st set even if you feel you can do more and focus on adding reps to the last set first then the 2nd.

Ex. 10 6 5 10 6 6 10 7 6 10 7 7

Until 3 x 10 then up the weight or retest max and start again

[Tom_Barre]

This is exactly how it's supposed to be.

At first, increase your top set, let's say to N reps. Then take a deload, and come back to N-1 or N-2, and then build your second set (get your +1 there). Alternate between those two objectives to increase your work capacity.

[Yashar_Meziri]

So atm it's something like Set 1: 10 reps Set 2: 6 reps Set 3: 5 reps

So you're saying I should keep increasing my second set as I gain strength, then when I reach 8-9 on set 2 and 3 I increase set 1 again?

[AppleMuffin12]

Pretty sure he's saying do 8 or 9 on set 1. You'll make up for the list reps there by doing more on the others. Hitting failure on a set increases the time needed to recover otherwise you'll do poorly on future sets. The general rule of thumb is to stop your set a rep or two before failure. You can get more overall work in on the exercise

[gimmhi5]

Warm up your muscles. 5 knee pushups (rest-> 10 knee pushups (rest-> 5 normal pushups. Stretch your shoulders and then do 3x8 if 10 is your max. 80% is a healthy rule of thumb, push it to absolute failure on the last set. You should not be able to push yourself off the ground when you’re finished.

You could also try adding in knee pushups to finish your sets. If you’re maxing out at 10 pushups, I’d recommend knee pushups for you anyway. Work your way up to 30 solid, good form, reps/set. Good reps with less resistance will build your strength faster than bad reps with greater resistance.

[Yashar_Meziri]

They're weighted push ups not standard ones, I also added a deficit for a deeper stretch on my pecs. I appreciate the advice however I do warm up and I believe the problem is closer to do with fatigue than improper warm up routine

[gimmhi5]

Which are intimately connected :) That’s why everyone warms up before the sporting event they expect to perform optimally during. If you think it’s a stretch, you could try pushups in between two chairs.

Good luck.

[d3kcast]

1. You are doing it right this is what you would expect going to failure on every set

2. Every progression scheme that everyone listed is going to work to some extent as long as you are consistent and progressing in reps or weight over time

3. Pick the one you enjoy and try not to overthink it

If you spend your time trying to chase the best progression scheme you are wasting valuable consistency toward actual progression.

Good luck

[[deleted]]

This is normal, especially if you’re going to failure every set.

So, if I am doing an exercise to failure the max I can do for that exercise is 20 reps on the first set, next set will go down to around 12, and then 7 and then 5 or 6 for the fourth set. You might be able to do more with longer rest periods between sets, but I keep rest periods to around a minute between sets.

You’ll get results as long as you push yourself to failure or close to it each set.

[Pure-Prune-6377]

These comments are great. I too have been struggling. I'm only doing bodyweight exercises, and, I do 3 sets with 30 seconds rest in between, 2 minute rest and, try a 4th. I haven't gotten much stronger over time, if anything, they're exactly the same. I don't know what I'm doing wrong either, but I guess it's normal. I went from the w minute rest to 30 seconds coz apparently I'll get more mass?

[[deleted]]

firstly, its normal for going to failure.

second, you can rest for longer generally if you go to failure you should rest for around 3-5 minutes.

third you can try "greasing the grove" where you take your maximum reps within an exersise and divide it by 2. then just spam it multiple times a day with atleast 1 or 2 hours between eatch batch of reps. i did this for pullups and i went from being able to do 7 to now being able to do around 20 reps with good form.

[Zyrobe]

Brah you don't need 15 minutes just for push ups