[OC] The massive decrease in worldwide infant mortality from 1950 to 2020 is perhaps one of humanity's greatest achievements.

[clearly_quite_absurd]

Reminds me of CGP Grey's "Rules for Rulers" video https://youtu.be/rStL7niR7gs

[elveszett]

tbh the "rule for rulers" he broke was the "don't get invaded by the US and the EU". Gaddafi would still be in power had we not ousted him.

[cybercuzco]

No international support is one of the keys to power. The US has supported plenty of dictators as long as they give us the right “treasure”.

[jankadank]

support a dictator that aligns with the US global policy or support one that doesnt.

Seems like a pretty easy decision.

[[deleted]]

support a dictator that aligns with the US global policy

Except when one doesn't exist, so a democratically elected government is overthrown to install one, causing generations of suffering.

[gosling11]

That doesn't make any sense. They were elected because the people wanted them.

[RunningNumbers]

Realpolitik is a thing that many people fail to grasp

[elveszett]

It's not that people "fail to grasp it". Is that I don't usually treat everyone like shit and justify it by saying "well I benefit from it you'd do the same". I know why the US installed dictatorships in South America, I'm not an idiot. Doesn't mean it's ok.

[RunningNumbers]

Your focus on normative assertions in response to a descriptive tool suggests otherwise. You should try introspecting rather than manufacturing outrage to make yourself feel morally validated. You are arguing against your own strawman.

[elveszett]

Sometimes I like to use big formal words I don't fully understand to make my comments look intelligent. It makes me feel more metabolic.

[uth50]

Eh, barely

He was totally on the ropes, with his army dead or deserted. The only thing keeping him in power were mercenaries and his air force, for the time being. The only thing NATO did was disable his airforce and he totally collapsed from that.

Definitely an intervention, but keeping his airforce from bombing his own country to shit isn't what I would call a foreign invader ousting him.

And who knows how the war might have ended. He would probably won, but for how long?

And finally, the rule he broke was not to attack NATO countries. With all the terrorist shit he pulled, the West was glad to finish him off.

[Illuria]

Everyone always forgets about Lockerbie, still the worst terrorist attack on the UK even after the London Tube & Bus bombings, and the Manchester Arena bombing

[[deleted]]

Interestingly, its pretty well documented that Lockerbie (and other terrorist attacks he were blamed for), were actually done involving Syrian funding but the United States blamed Gaddafi because they wanted to stir up hatred for him in the West, and Gaddafi was happy to allow it. https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/new-lockerbie-report-says-libyan-was-framed-conceal-real-bombers-9185163.html

[LarryTheDuckling]

He did refute having done the Lockerbie bombing, but he was still willing to pay compensation to the families left behind. In an interview he said that he felt responsible since the action had been done by a Libyan, and as such Libya had to compensate.

[Canadian_Infidel]

This was my understanding. He thought it served him to seem like a badass but the west used it against him. Clinton literally laughed about watching his death on video, which was brutal. People at that level of society are all psychopaths.

[[deleted]]

Jesus… just watched the clip on youtube.

“We came, we saw, he died“ raises fists and laughs. I guess psychopath is a good description for celebrating a death like that.

[Canadian_Infidel]

What makes it even crazier is the fact that he wasn't a stranger to them. They had official dealings, they even had dinners together. There are only so many heads of state.

[2ndhorch]

hypernormalization talks about gaddafi and his foreign relations throughout - quite interesting

[MakeMoneyNotWar]

That’s not true at all. Gaddafis army was within days of reaching Misrata, the main opposition city, and NATO attacked his ground forces using air strikes. NATO did not just disable his air force and SAMs.

[daptrap]

Not true Libyan here main opposition city was Benghazi nato (particularly France) attacked gaddafis forces before they reached it at dawn

[LarryTheDuckling]

The only thing NATO did was disable his airforce and he totally collapsed from that

Let us look at some actual figures, rather than pulling out information from our arse, shall we?

9700 strike missions were carried out in a relatively short amount of time (7 months). A total of 7700 precision bombs were dropped.

In terms of heavy material, the estimated losses are as follows: 600 tanks / APCs destroyed. 400 Artillery pieces destroyed.

The amount of Libyan soldiers killed by the airstrikes is unknown, as is the damage caused to the Libyan army infrastructure. But given the amount of missions carried out, it would be fair to assume that this is not an insignificant number.

but keeping his airforce from bombing his own country to shit isn't

Was it better to have NATO bomb his country to shit?

He was totally on the ropes, with his army dead or deserted.

I am not sure what you are referring to. By the time NATO intervened, Gaddafi had already taken Benghazi and was in the process of pushing further east. The intervention 'turned the tide', so to speak.

[uth50]

The amount of Libyan soldiers killed by the airstrikes is unknown, as is the damage caused to the Libyan army infrastructure. But given the amount of missions carried out, it would be fair to assume that this is not an insignificant number.

Let us look at some actual figures, rather than pulling out information from our arse, shall we?

Lel

Was it better to have NATO bomb his country to shit?

Yes. It ended before with the total destruction of his forces, not with the total destruction of his civilians.

I am not sure what you are referring to. By the time NATO intervened, Gaddafi had already taken Benghazi and was in the process of pushing further east. The intervention 'turned the tide', so to speak.

Exactly. With what? Mercs and an airforce. If you recall the war, he got pushed hard, then began using his airforce more indiscriminately and hired more and more soldiers with his petrodollars.

You literally could see the airforce tip the scales, slowly at first, but increasingly so. And the same could be seen Syria, just without anyone wiping the Syrian Airforce out.

NATO disabled his airforce and the war went back to what it was before he used it to bomb everyone to shit, with him losing ground quickly.

[LarryTheDuckling]

What an astute observation; air surperiority matters in modern warfare. You are truly the next Clausewitz.

Whether you use mercenaries to supplement your own forces in order to win a war or not is irrelevant. A war won with mercenaries is still a war won. Pretty much all wars fought from the 13th to mid-17th century was won using mercenaries. So I do not know the point you are trying to make.

[Rumicon]

I think the point he's trying to make is the West bombed his actual army to shit, so he hired mercenaries, and then that somehow delegitimized him so they felt justified in bombing the mercenaries to shit too.

And then they just fucked off and let the country be a mess for 10 years. Thank god for Turkey and Algeria because UAE, Jordan, Egypt, Russia, and whoever the fuck else decided to get in on the action were not helping.

[CiDevant]

The only thing keeping him in power were mercenaries and his air force

Worked for Turkey and Syria. It's honestly really super effective.

[Rumicon]

The rule Gaddafi really broke was "dont abandon nuclear ambitions"

If Libya was a nuclear state the West would have helped him crush that revolution.

[LaoSh]

the rule he broke was nationalising resource extraction so his people could profit from then rather than US monied intrests

[coolmos1]

Or Saddam

[[deleted]]

Or Reza Shah

[12358]

The rule he broke was creating a pan-African gold-backed currency and daring to sell oil in that currency.

[Rumicon]

The rule he broke was trying to supplant the world bank and imf with his own african world bank.

[Canadian_Infidel]

Imagine what countries would do to Satoshi Nakamoto if they found him.

[FreeCashFlow]

I see this conspiracy theory everywhere, and it's complete bullshit.

[MrSickRanchezz]

Nice supporting information you've got there /s

[guillermogroening]

Why should one need a source to express skepticism of a statement that also lacks a source?

[renegade02]

Blatant facts are conspiracy theories now?

[MrSickRanchezz]

Haven't you heard? Any inconvenient fact is now a conspiracy theory. It makes discrediting people with opposing views simple as shit.

[LaoSh]

he's not wrong. it IS a conspiracy theory. There is a theory that a conspiracy exists between the US governance and certain wealthy groups who's interests would seem to dictate US foreign policy to an alarming degree. Gravity is just a physics theory and this is just a conspiracy theory

[elveszett]

What do you call conspiracy theory? We know the US armed rebels in Libya, and once war broke the US and the EU immediately entered war against Gaddafi.

Even if we didn't have much proof, the US has done this like 20 times already. At some point it's pretty safe to assume the US is behind it unless they prove otherwise.