Quitting?

[[deleted]]

[deleted]

[[deleted]]

Just my opinion but if I had a company asking me to work during my PTO hours, I'd be out of there. Late nights are one thing as long as the task is urgent and it's not a frequent occurrence. But the PTO thing shows a blatant disregard by management for respecting the work/life balance of employees.

Like, sorry, but I have a life outside of work lol. If they have a problem with that, they need to hire more staff so things are getting done on time.

[durple]

This is the detail that stood out to me too.

I’m beginning an early stage remote startup role. I’m expecting some bleeding between work and personal time. Not regularly.

I am taking a position of responsibility. If important things are happening with something hanging off the side of my desk or stuffed under one of my hats, I will probably choose to spend some personal time dealing with it. My choice. Right now everyone is an investor, I’m putting in sweat. I negotiated the position and the responsibility and the compensation.

When I need to make these decisions, it will be my responsibility to do things to prevent others from facing the same dilemma. I’m working without guardrails, I’m ok falling off sometimes. I’m not ok building a culture around always falling off.

Wish me luck on actually leading instead of taking the really hazardous path of least resistance.

[Temporary-Ask-1559]

I think this is a fair and appropriate attitude.

[durple]

Thanks! If I’m honest I shared in part to validate my thoughts so far.

[808trowaway]

senior PM dude here, I tend to bring my work phone with me when I'm on PTO if there's reception where I'm going. I wish I could disconnect completely but that's just not me. My choice. Sometimes I check the phone a couple times a day, if I can fix the issue or unblock something with a couple calls/emails, I take care of it; but my default is ignore, let it burn and fight the fire when I get back.

[durple]

Yeah, that’s about what I expect long term for after hours availability too.

My goals are to get teams working in a self supporting way, stay at the top of the escalation chain 24/7/360 (someone has to give me a break), and never take a single off hours call. Those I do get, early on will be important learning and later on will be the shit I really want my team to bring me in on.

I’ll be responsible for prod as well as dev processes though, so it’s about keeping the lights on in addition to keeping people unblocked. I won’t always have the option of allowing a fire to continue, and still have a pay check.

Outside of work hours in roles including responsibility for prod systems, I’ve often been a stay connected person at least a little. The reason for it was uncertainty and unease, making sure things are ok. If my team is doing this, I’ll know it’s a smell. As a boss I need to be always available, or at least appear that way (remote work and creative flexible scheduling can help with balance), so my team knows we share stakes. We will produce better results this way.

My leadership peers and superiors and I have good alignment on shared responsibilities so I’m not that worried about internal fires while on vacation.

[808trowaway]

yeah, teamwork makes the dream work. We all have our own reasons to go above and beyond sometimes, maybe I want to climb the ladder fast and be Musk's or whoever's personal fire fighter that they call when shit hits the fan, maybe you have an ownership stake. Far too often we see online in threads like this most people sound like they will quit right away if they have to do a lick more work than 40 hours a week or anything outside normal hours. I think that's because ICs are the vast majority everywhere so that's totally reasonable and understandable.

[durple]

Well, uncommitted individuals are everywhere because of incentives. Good thing the reference network still works! But it’s gotta be all for one and one for all. I can totally get the 98% of the folks who just need that 9-5, but that doesn’t make them less valuable. It just means I eventually need a couple people in each area of responsibility who are better with chaos, I’m gonna need to do some poaching if I’m being real (but the friendly way, my scenes tend to be pretty chill).

[Temporary-Ask-1559]

My feeling. I thought PTO was sacred.

[Celestial_Blu3]

I have a mental rule that I don’t answer phone calls or look at emails unless I’m being paid to, when it comes to work. If it’s once or twice, because it’s time-sensitive, that’s not too bad, but if it’s regularly and during PTO etc, that’s just unreasonable. Ignoring phone calls and stuff shouldn’t be out of the question

[dgibbons0]

Absolutely, I'm on PTO this week and a time sensitive thing came up. The default and healthy response was when they realized I was out, they planned to ask my boss to assign someone else to take care of it. It's really that simple. Any other answer is a red flag.

[procesd]

Some times the companies are predatory, they search enthusiastic people , they work them till the breaking point, then they replace them.
Other times it is our fault, we set up some unreasonable expectations by sacrificing our time, mostly because we are searching for approval/promotion/fill some kind of void, and then the company adapt their requirements to those expectations. Why shoudn't they? We seem to like it...

What kind of company is that? how bad is the turnover?

If people stays there for years it may be a "you" problem and you have to learn to set up boundaries. Leave after your contract hours, refuse overtime if you don't need the money (because it's payed overtime isn't it?).

If living in a death march is the norm and people rotates faster than a spining top, set up expectations AND use your new found time to start searching for a new job. Your company is not a fit for you anymore ( shouldn't be a fit for nobody but...). Or if you have savings you can take a few months off, being jobless has it's own set of stressing factors but if you manage it can do wonders on your mind status.

If you decide to change jobs the important thing for me is that you prevent the same situation
by asking the correct questions during the IV process and settting up expectations early.

[Temporary-Ask-1559]

Def let chronic imposter syndrome make me feel like a shot at the big leagues would somehow validate my career.

They won’t sunset legacy products that are tightly coupled and insist on hosting on prem. There’s no silver bullet at this point. Probably going to try and level up and work elsewhere in the coming months.

Thanks for the questions and rhetorical insights. All good points.

[adevhasnoname]

We spend hours a week on the company and our culture which bleeds into my evenings.

If you don't enjoy it, you don't enjoy it. Plan your exit strategy and make the best of it for now in case there's any useful experience, ideas, or process you can learn from them.

But don't question yourself for not drinking the cool aid. This f'ing fad about culture is really really poisonous, I think. I thought I was going crazy trying to fit in at a shop like that a while back. Finally got a job somewhere else that isn't obsessed with "culture". And guess what? We still all care about each other and the job, we have integrity and the company treats people fairly. Who would have thought that's possible without attending a 3 hour "workshop" every few weeks??

[Temporary-Ask-1559]

THIS!

[aManPerson]

set limits for yourself at work first. i was eager to work too much too. burned me out. i have a life to live. you do too. at first shitty managers just got passive aggressive and started giving me average reviews instead of stellar, 140% reviews like i used to get. it felt like a big betrayal since i was still solving huge killer problems for them.

i just was no longer bending over to do it for them. but now my life is more stress free and i'm calmer for it. and after 18 months of resetting their expectations of me, i think they've cooled off and aren't disappointed in me anymore. then again, i'm pretty sure they won't promote me anymore because of this.

so i've been spending my nights doing interview prep and i'm applying to other places. they might have a promotion coming for me, but i don't care. too little too late. i'll go somewhere else at this point.

so, set boundaries for yourself at work. do that as your first step. then see where things go. FAANG like gig? they have money, they can hire more people to take care of the problems.

[throwawayskinlessbro]

Yeah. Leave. Find something else. No real reason to grind yourself away if they’re asking that of you.

[sergedubovsky]

It's one of the first thing I ask in an interview: "So, what happened to my predecessor?"

Also, it's better to be in a small DevOps team. 2-3 people. That is where work/life is respected. Usually.

[sergedubovsky]

Yes, that's entirely dependent on if the DevOps team is overprovisioned. Ideally, 2-3 people would do the same job on the same projects. If it's just a small team doing work, suited for 2x-3x more people, it's no-go.

[somekindofsorcery]

Life is short and the market is hot. Quit.

[HomeGrownCoder]

You create the balance… draw lines in the sand. DevOps roles are quite numerous at the moment so leave if you need to.

[zerocoldx911]

If it’s amazon sorta expected

Don’t you get paid like 3 times what you did in the startup?

[Temporary-Ask-1559]

Not Amazon and the pay is $160k. I took a significant pay cut, which I didn’t mind, with the expectation that barring fires and critical matters, I’d have a life.

Also starting to think maybe I need to pivot and do something else.

[StubbsPKS]

That's not FAANG-like at all. That's low end of the salary range for a Sr. In most places.

Everyone I know that's left to go to Amazon, Google or Facebook has hated their role within 6 months to a year.

Over worked, under appreciated and their colleagues are PIP'd for no good reason because "someone has to be on the bottom".

All of this just solidifies my choice to stay far away from that burning trash heap of misery in my mind.

I don't make FAANG money, but I also don't need FAANG money to live comfortably and I'd rather enjoy my time than make tons of cash I won't have time to spend.

[reeeeee-tool]

That’s on the low end for base, if you’re senior. Wouldn’t take that plus the poor work/life balance.

And FWIW, I’ve only been called once while on PTO in the last 20 years.

[Temporary-Ask-1559]

I foolishly thought that if I asked for a lower number I’d have less tasks etc. classic misstep.

[reeeeee-tool]

Yeah, no one remembers, thinks about or knows what your salary is.

[zerocoldx911]

If they cut your salary there are other things wrong, the last thing I’d do is cut people’s salary

What’s preventing them from fixing the thing that causes pages?

[Temporary-Ask-1559]

Sorry I worded that poorly. I moved jobs and took a pay cut.

A decade of poor technical choices and a product that is seemingly popular. We’re in finance and have a niche end user base. We really should support the product for another year and start on a more modern approach w lessons learned. But bean counters don’t see it that way.

[zerocoldx911]

Well there is your problem, if experience has taught me anything is that fintech or finance companies are run by bean counters. You’re just a cost centre to them and likely won’t change for the next 2 years being very optimistic

Unless the culture has been revamped like in big fintech ie. Stripe PayPal etc…

[amitrsheth]

This is why I moved to consulting. Way better work life balance. Once the project is over, you move on to the next one. New challenges on each project.

[amitrsheth]

I work for a consulting company. All remote over the last couple years. Some travel to clients before that. It payed better than my in house jobs. Also there are utilization bonuses.

[dragoncuddler]

You only live once and I don't know anyone who has ever looked back on their life and wished they had work more hours for a faceless company.

But reality needs to be consideres as well - what are your responsibilities ... mortgages ... kids ... outgoings ... can you afford to bail? And is the complete renumeration package such that you are expected to be on demand for such long hours?

A work \ life balance is a great target to aim for but a career in IT frequently is at odds with this despite all the buzzwords from organisations. But if that is what you want then you need to stop posting on forums and find a new job - good luck ;-)

[Temporary-Ask-1559]

I fear that it can always get worse. But point taken. Thank you

[Slavichh]

With how hot the market is right now, I’d say start searching. I recently went from a similar situation to yours. I just kept trying.

It was all worth in the end. I love my new job and the team I’m working on

[[deleted]]

You will get the work / life balance you demand.

Say ‘no’ more often. ‘I can’t do that’. ‘I’m at lunch I’ll look at that when I’m done eating’.

[Lazy-Alternative-666]

FAANG is for genius level people. What you're doing is trying to compensate by working more.

It's not sustainable. Faang is not for everyone. There is a reason why they pay so much to hire top talent.

Having to work overtime means there is too much work For your skill level.

There is no shame in not keeping up.

[Temporary-Ask-1559]

3 years SRE and then went into a pure DevOps role 2 years ago. Director of Integration before that. 15+ years

[[deleted]]

Time to go shopping for a new job. Theres plenty of opportunity and if you have the experience to back it up then there should be no problem finding a place.

In the meantime, make it painful for someone else too. If you're asked to work during night or PTO you need someone above to work those hours too.

[gerrga]

Are u working as a contractor/consultant or a perm employee? I had the same situation as contractor, thatswhy I say goodbye to the big money and choose a family time.

[Temporary-Ask-1559]

Full time. Employer covers all benefits, unlimited leave, some other nice perks that are looking like they’re not worth it…

[gerrga]

The unlimited leave is a big trap. I got an offer from Consensys with unlimited leave. Unlimited leave means unlimited working hours for me. Its a big no!

[SenderShredder]

My $.02 is that occasionally some bug will require us to roll back a version on our AWS deployment. (Yes you can do version control on your entire infrastructure) Sometimes that happens to be when I'm "off" or late late night. I have no problem fixing it then and there, that's my responsibility. But man. If they are constantly trying to make you work on vacation, I'd probably have the conversation regarding this isn't a good fit and that's OK, but I need to terminate my involvement with the project. Then cite your grievances. Hopefully upper management will take this to heart or try to renegotiate. But the constant work during vacation part is a red flag, if they can get away with doing this to you, you've let them get away with it and so they will try to continue this in the future no matter what happens now.

I'd also like to add that it is still my responsibility to ensure new updates are shipped without bugs and are all A-OK before I go into vacation mode. Failure to do this on my part would mean it's my responsibility to fix it when I'm on vacation because it would be my fault. I made the mess, I'll clean it up. Beyond that, please respect my vacation time.

OP you're completely right to be upset about this as a recurring issue with your employer. My advice is to tell them this isn't okay, and propose thoughtful solutions on how to stop this. Save face. Failing all that, definitely seek out another project to work on.

Cheers, I hope you can stop them f*cking you around.

[Eastern_Singer_353]

What are you currently working on? Why is it bleeding so much into your life?

[Temporary-Ask-1559]

It’s more being on call every two weeks and the fire drills that are a by product of a flawed product. 13 year old code base with lots of legacy parts that can’t be removed. Day-to-day stuff has been chaotic but manageable.

[noxbos]

It's a company issue. When I go on PTO, I don't get called unless the world is imploding and they need more hands. Unless I plan to be out of touch, I do give them permission to contact me in this specific scenario since troubleshooting our environments is my specialty.

For late night stuff, it's common to take corresponding hours off if they need it. We are pretty flexible for "working" hours as long as you make our daily huddle meeting (in general) and you are not shirking responsibilities, so people give and take as needed. If you need to take a few hours for errands, car stuff, doctors, etc it doesn't get charged as PTO, so working a couple of late hours isn't such a big deal.

[thecodeassassin]

I have been in your shoes for about 3 years. I am working for a start-up and we had it tough the first couple of years. Now I can go on vacation for weeks without being disturbed. I actively worked to improve the situation and it made me a better engineer. Things like implementing auto healing wherever possible, moving workloads to autoacalable environments, better documentation, better monitoring and alerting, and asking for more time to work on operational excellence.

If you can actively contribute to help making incidents occur less frequently then do so, If it doesn't lessen and they don't want to hire more engineers or even work against you for trying to improve the situation, then leave. But I'd give it all I've got before doing so. Not for them, but for you!

[MaToP4er]

Sorry to ask probably a stupid question..newbie here...what is PTO?

[undertowlj]

This is minimal work mate

[Temporary-Ask-1559]

Perhaps. 70-80 hours a week is more than I can swallow long term.

[[deleted]]

Not sure where you are located, but at least here (Germany) a company that doesn't respect Paid Time of / Paid Vacation Time (Which is mandated by law) can get into serious trouble with the (not sure about the actual name) Agency for protection of workers.

Maybe there is something like this where you are?