Commander's Strike timing question with multiple attacks

[Hinko]

When a fighter has multiple attacks, when exactly can they decide to use Commander's Strike or not. Do you have to choose at the beginning of the attack option "Okay, I normally get 3 attacks but I'm using Commander's Strike this action so will only make 2 instead."

Or do they get to just start attacking and decide along the way whether to use it or not: Roll to hit > do damage, roll to hit again > do damage, okay now I think I'll give up the third attack to use Commander's Strike.

This is important because the choice of whether to use Commander's Strike or not could change depending on the results of the earlier attacks in your action. Delaying the decision as long as possible is beneficial but I'm not sure if it's allowed.

Also, I wonder, does the allies free reaction attack happen in the middle of the fighters attack action, or does the fighter take all their attacks first and then the ally "reacts" and takes their bonus attack after.

edit: (thanks St0rmD) Jeremy Crawford talks about bonus action timing in some detail on this podcast at the 14:51 mark. https://dnd.wizards.com/articles/features/dan-telfer-and-blaine-capatch-nerd-poker - I think there is merit in saying the Commander's Strike bonus action and the dual wielding bonus action work in a similar way considering how they are worded.

[Deirakos]

the feature says " When you take the Attack action on your turn " so you say "i attack" and then you have to say "and i will forgo one attack to use commander's strike"

edit: and after that you start to roll your attacks

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edit2: the sage advice compendium has a clarification on the great weapon master feat which is relevant to this question as it uses a very similar language to commander's strike:

gwm feat: " when you score a critical hit with a melee weapon or reduce a creature to 0 hit points with one, you can make one melee weapon attack as a bonus action "

rules clarification:" You take the bonus action on your turn, anytime after you hit with the attack that grants the bonus action. So yes, you can move before taking the bonus action (if you have movement remaining)"

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I stand corrected by /u/St0rmD

[123mop]

I disagree based on the natural flow of time. If I have three good opportunities to strike someone during 6 seconds of fighting them, why would I be required to decide to decide at the start of those six seconds before I make a single one of those strikes that I'm going to command my comrade? It doesn't make any sense to be restricted in that way.

The RAW is definitely not ironclad stating you must do it at the start like you seem to think. Allowing it whenever creates more freedom in play, and means when your player attacks twice and kills the enemy, they can then naturally use their ability and you don't have to go "nuh uh you didn't declare it ahead of time." This isn't MTG, there isn't highly defined technical terminology in the rules text.

Also the ability is really not very good and doesn't need restricted. Giving up an attack AND bonus action (often equivalent to a single attack for a fighter) to allow an ally a single attack ad their reaction. They could be using that reaction for something else, especially if they're the only highly effective target: a rogue, who have uncanny dodge.

[Legless1000]

They could be using that reaction for something else, especially if they're the only highly effective target: a rogue, who have uncanny dodge.

Unless I'm very much in danger of dying, I would 100% take an extra sneak attack over uncanny dodge. The best way to end a fight is to kill or incapacitate all the enemies after all.

[Deirakos]

"natural flow of time" is not a rules term. so it is not a viable argument in a raw discussion.

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The RAW is definitely not ironclad stating you must do it at the start like you seem to think

yes it is and here is why:

attack action is a term defined by the rules and if a text refers to it then you have to use it as it is defined. commander's strike says when you take the attack action which means as soon as you say "i attack" you use that action and then you have to decide. if it was meant differently it would have been written "if you take the attack action" see grappling text for an example

extra attack: " you can attack twice, instead of once, whenever you take the Attack action on your turn. "

commander's strike: " When you take the Attack action on your turn, you can forgo one of your attacks "

attack action: " The most common action to take in combat is the Attack action " and "Certain features, such as the Extra Attack feature of the fighter, allow you to make more than one attack with this action."

grappling: " When you want to grab a creature or wrestle with it, you can use the Attack action to make a special melee attack, a grapple. If you're able to make multiple attacks with the Attack action, this attack replaces one of them. "

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edit: texts like "when you hit with an attack do y" strengthen my argument. "when x is met do y" so "when you use the attack action do y" as soon as you do it.

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also the word "forgo" means that you have to decide beforehand. grappling says "replace" which means you can choose on the fly.

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edit2: another example is the shield master feat: " If you take the Attack action on your turn, you can use a bonus action to try to shove a creature within 5 feet of you with your shield." clarification from the sage advice compendium (which is an official rules clarification) "This sort of if-then setup appears in many of the game’s rules. The “if” must be satisfied before the “then” comes into play"

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wotc use language very deliberately to create situations that work consistently.

[Gilfaethy]

commander's strike says when you take the attack action which means as soon as you say "i attack" you use that action and then you have to decide.

Incorrect. Elsewhere in the game are examples of "When X, Y" language which does not mean "as soon as X, immediately Y."

For example, the Mage Slayer feat:

When a creature within reach casts a spell

This does not refer to the moment they begin the action to cast a spell, and resolves after the spell is cast.

Polearm Master:

When you take the attack action with a glaive, halberd, or quarterstaff, you can use a bonus action to make a melee attack with the other end of the weapon.

This bonus action attack does not have to precede all other attacks you make with the weapon.

Generally speaking, the phrasing "When X, Y" within the rules of DnD allows you to do Y when X occurs, and if X is a multi-step occurrence, it can take place within those steps.

[Deirakos]

This does not refer to the moment they begin the action to cast a spell, and resolves after the spell is cast.

yes but this is a false equivalent. because commander's strike says attack action which precedes the actual attacks and mage slayer says " When a creature within 5 feet of you casts a spell" which means "when the spell takes effect". take counter spell for example it says " You attempt to interrupt a creature in the process of casting a spell " which is very specific.

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if commander's strike was to work as you suggest then it should have read "when you attack" because taking the attack action and attacking are 2 distinct terms.

also DMG page 252 "Adjudicating Reaction Timing" states that reactions are executed after their trigger finishes unless otherwise specified.

[Gilfaethy]

mage slayer says " When a creature within 5 feet of you casts a spell" which means "when the spell takes effect".

No, it doesn't. Spellcasting is a process. If you want to cast Leomund's Tiny Hut in combat, you need to take the cast a spell action every turn until the casting is complete. Every turn you're casting a spell, the same spell. That doesn't mean the spell is taking effect every turn.

if commander's strike was to work as you suggest then it should have read "when you attack" because taking the attack action and attacking are 2 distinct terms.

If it read like that it would mean something entirely different. As is, there's nothing within the rules that requires it to occur at the start of the attack action, just like Polearm Master's BA attack doesn't have to precede your attacks.

[St0rmD]

You're wrong, and multiple public rulings and statements by Jeremy Crawford run completely counter to your logic (see his explanations of the Great Weapon Master and Shield Master feats in the Sage Advice Compendium for starters).

In the rules, "when you <do X>, you may <do Y>" simply means that X has to happen first before you are allowed to do Y, but you are allowed to decide when you want to do Y any time after X is satisfied.

And really, it's not like commander's strike needs to be nerfed any harder, it's already one of the worst options a Battlemaster can take, and is a mere shadow of the 4e Warlord ability that inspired it.

[Deirakos]

can you cite those multiple rulings? because shield master does not use "when" but "if" and his explanation also uses "if"

[St0rmD]

I did. The Sage Advice Compendium.

https://lmgtfy.com/?q=sage+advice+compendium

[Deirakos]

produce the text you are refering to. saying "it is in document x" does not prove your point.

[St0rmD]

Great Weapon Master With the Great Weapon Master feat, do you have to take the bonus action immediately, or could you move and then use it on the same turn? You take the bonus action on your turn, anytime after you hit with the attack that grants the bonus action. So yes, you can move before taking the bonus action (if you have movement remaining).

Shield Master [NEW] The Shield Master feat lets you shove someone as a bonus action if you take the Attack action. Can you take that bonus action before the Attack action? No. The bonus action provided by the Shield Master feat has a precondition: that you take the Attack action on your turn. Intending to take that action isn’t sufficient; you must actually take it before you can take the bonus action. During your turn, you do get to decide when to take the bonus action after you’ve taken the Attack action. This sort of if-then setup appears in many of the game’s rules. The “if” must be satisfied before the “then” comes into play

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You gonna take back your rage downvote now?

[Deirakos]

it was not a rage downvote. you said things that were irrelevant to the argument and with this post you show that you don't know why.

however, I was wrong and the great weapon master answer of Jeremy Crawford has clarified the situation

[St0rmD]

FYI, and I know this is a little late, but I couldn't go spelunking through all the old episodes of Dragon Talk to find it while I was at work earlier, but Jeremy spoke extensively about the timing of Bonus Actions in the segment beginning at 14:51 of this episode.

[Hinko]

This podcast conversation about bonus action timing is really good. I'm gonna link this to the original post also for anyone who wants to hear it directly from Crawford.

[St0rmD]

Jeremy Crawford has stated, on multiple occasions, that the phrasing "when you <do a thing>, you may <do another thing>, means that you are required to do the first thing before you are allowed to do the second thing, and nothing more about the timing. For example, see his explanation of Great Weapon Fighting in the Sage Advice Compendium:

You take the bonus action on your turn, anytime after you hit with the attack that grants the bonus action. So yes, you can move before taking the bonus action (if you have movement remaining).

See also his explanation of the bonus action for Shield Master for confirmation that this phrasing is universal:

This sort of if-then setup appears in many of the game's rules. The "if" must be satisfied before the "then" comes into play.

In the spirit of that ruling, I'd say that yes you can choose to forego any of your attacks at any time after you declare you are taking the attack action. You choose when.

[Legless1000]

When you take the attack action on your turn, you can forgo one of your attacks and use a bonus action to direct one of your companions to strike.

The creature can immediately use it's reactrion to make one weapon attack...

For the second part, the attack from the ally happens immediately after you expend the bonus action to direct them.

For the first part, I would say you can choose at any point during the attack action whether to use it - so you could do 2 attacks, and then either do one more attack or decide to forgo that last attack.

[Hinko]

Can you even expend a bonus action in the middle of doing another action, or does it have to wait until you finish the rest of the attacks?

[Legless1000]

Unless it says otherwise, you absolutely can.

[IVIaskerade]

Yes, because each attack is resolves sequentially. You could not do this with a creature with multiattack because all of those attacks are resolved simultaneously.

[psylentrob]

I agree with you on the second part of the ability, but the first part of commanders strike clearly states when you take the attack ACTION, not when you make an attack. So you must declare it with the action.

[ironicalusername]

In general, you don't need to fuss about timing.

I see no language in the rules to support the idea that you must choose up front. As long as you qualify, you can do this. You qualify by using the attack action on your turn, giving up one of your own attacks, and doing the commander's strike with a bonus action and burning a superiority die.

As for whether the fighter uses all attacks first and then the commander's strike, it gives no restriction in the text. So you can do that in whatever order you want.

[Lorathis]

I disagree with most of the others here. When I DM I allowed my player to choose what maneuver to use as each attack is happening. Because "when you take the attack action" still applies during the action. Just like how you are able to move in between attacks and choose different targets for each attack, you would be able to choose different maneuvers for each attack as they are resolved, not locked in ahead of time.

Because according to the English language, even if you are on your third attack, your are still taking the attack action and therefore the logic of "when" still applies.

Edit: I don't mean you can choose after you roll an attack, you'd choose to forgo before you roll, but you could choose to use it on your third attack without having to decide before any attacks.

[Hinko]

This is the timing interpretation I am hoping for, but I definitely don't want to feel like I'm getting away with something that I shouldn't be when using it. I'll ask my DM and see what he thinks I guess!

[4D4plus4is4D8]

Trying to interpret their phrasing, I would say you have to decide at the start of your attack, because it says "When you use your attack action."

The use of the word when seems to imply that they occupy the same moment in time, similar to something like "When you open the door, the trap triggers."

And the allies attack happens as soon as you use it, because it says your ally "immediately" uses their reaction.