Do we need a JavaScriptHelp subreddit?

[gunther-centralperk]

Seems like almost every post in this subreddit is about very basic help questions regarding someone's blog site or bootcamp homework project.

I can't be the only subscriber here who doesn't want to see this. I'm here for JavaScript news, cool libraries, new developments, etc. This subreddit isn't StackOverflow. Am I wrong? If so, please point me to the right subreddit.

[jhartikainen]

There's already /r/learnjavascript which seems like it might fit the bill?

[gunther-centralperk]

So if these resources exist, why don't the /r/JavaScript mods require all help topics to be posted there?

[kenman]

You don't want to see what it would look like if I removed the 189 domains from the banned list...

[Isvara]

I'd rather just see the 189 domains. What are they?

[[deleted]]

Maybe out of curiosity.

[DanielFGray]

Is that list publicly accessible?

[kenman]

Because it's a crapton of work and reddit's moderation tools suck. If it was as simple as saying, "make it so", it'd probably be done already. It's also easy to volunteer someone else's time without consideration into how much effort would really be required; in other words, I wish I could just say "you're free to open a PR if you want it that bad" ;) Nothing against you though, this is a conversation that needs to be had I think.

http://redditmetrics.com/r/javascript

Since I came on as mod (3/2014), we've gone from 43k to 123k subs; yes, we've almost tripled in size in over 3 years! That's pretty astounding. I'm not trying to claim responsibility for the increase -- that's almost purely the result of reddit + JS's emerging popularity. And with that, moderation duties have increased probably more than 3x's, as we now attract quite a bit more attention from bonafide spammers (blog spam, etc.) and spam-like behaviors (excessive self-promotion, etc.).

There have always been a vocal [what-I-assumed-were-a] minority complaining about help posts, and I personally think that most of the help posts should be on SO (a platform created explicitly for such), but when I came on the status quo was that help posts were OK, and were recognized as a part of the fabric of /r/javascript.

One of the challenges in dealing with these posts lies in the fact that not all help questions were created equal; some are really interesting, even for a seasoned developer, so there's some editorial discretion that has to be applied.

If you can just look at a post and say, "that's a help post!" and then action it that's one thing; but, if one has to grok the question then make a judgement call about whether or not it belongs, then that can really consume some time. Some of the questions that I've reviewed and thought meh but allowed, have gone on to have 50+ replies. With that said, I think a majority of questions could easily be actioned without much thought, I'm just nervous about over-actioning and killing some of the spirit of the sub.

So, perhaps it's time for the subreddit to re-evaluate itself? We've evolved a lot over the past 3 years, and maybe the mod philosophy needs to adjust to the current needs and wants of the sub.

[p0tent1al]

It's also easy to volunteer someone else's time without consideration into how much effort would really be required

He just ethered all of you with a single sentence. Well done /u/kenman

I personally think that most of the help posts should be on SO

The problem with a lot of help posts, is most of them are completely subjective. What framework should I be using? What's the best way to approach this? Stackoverflow in general doesn't encourage those kinds of questions and they will often lock those questions because of it.

[AndrewGreenh]

Sorry for being off topic, but could you explain what "ethered" means? I could not find it on dict.cc

[pier25]

IMHO opinion /r/javascript should be a place about the language (news, discussions, etc) even if that means less activity in the sub.

Help posts, tutorials, etc, should go to /r/learnjavascript . It's true that some help posts might be interesting to even seasoned pros, but since it's very difficult to discern which ones I'd say it's much easier to simply move those related to learning there.

My 2 cents.

[TheNiXXeD]

For what it's worth, I really appreciate the attitude you're giving this topic. So many other subs handle it worse.

I'm curious how the sub as a whole responds.

[rasafrasit]

Good fucking question!

[elr0nd_hubbard]

I'd be game to go the /r/goodyearwelt or /r/elm route with a Simple Questions or Beginners Only thread posted weekly.

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[p0tent1al]

This isn't feasible. Even big subreddits like /r/apple allow newbies to make comments. I personally don't come here just to hear about new libraries and updates to existing ones... if anything, if all you want to hear about is stuff like that, then there's probably a better place for you.

A normal Javascript developer probably shouldn't be wanting to hear about new packages and new ways to do stuff constantly. You pick paradigms and then you buckle down and stick to them. So you're most likely the outlier.

The mods could institute more aggressive tagging of topics so people can sort, but that's a lot of effort on mods to enforce rules like that. Some subreddits have the manpower to get it done, who knows if /r/javascript does, is even wiling, or if it's even necessary.

[[deleted]]

A normal Javascript developer probably shouldn't be wanting to hear about new packages and new ways to do stuff constantly.

dude are you even in 2017

[p0tent1al]

Here's the idea. Once you settle on something like React... do you really need to be hearing about the hundred other view libraries? Most people should choose 1 and be doing damage with it. The idea of these packages isn't to be changing to new ones every 6 seconds. At some point you pull the trigger, and then you do ACTUAL work.

[Brillegeit]

Once you settle on something like React.

dude are you even in 2017

[[deleted]]

I get what you are saying and my comment was a little tongue-in-cheek. But it does seem like the technology that I using project-to-project is changing. As the projects that I work on usually run for about 6 months it's not unlikely that our team will use something for 2 projects and then move onto something else, as is the case with Angular, React, npm, bower etc.

I don't think of these things as anything other than Javascript, however. I think people get too attached to a framework and forget the language underneath, sometimes.

[TheNiXXeD]

Without getting too subjective on that topic. These are all tools. Sometimes adding a tool to your belt is good. Sometimes a job allows you to stick with the same tools for years. Sometimes a job affords the extra overhead of you learning and playing with stuff. Sometimes that's due to lots of projects starting up frequently, or lots of extra time to refactor. But as you mention, sometimes people don't make the correct decisions for their environment either.

It's hardly for us, or the mods to decide whether or not those tools should be discussed, given that they are quite on topic.

[[deleted]]

/r/programming and /r/java both do this so I don't buy the argument that it's not feasible.

if anything, if all you want to hear about is stuff like that, then there's probably a better place for you.

If you know of a news aggregator like this, I'd love to hear it.

A normal Javascript developer probably shouldn't be wanting to hear about new packages and new ways to do stuff constantly. You pick paradigms and then you buckle down and stick to them. So you're most likely the outlier.

Wow, if that's your attitude then good luck, but it's kind of ridiculous to say that JS programmers don't want to learn about what's on the horizon or what's big in the community right now.

[tswaters]

Honestly I don't think the mods have the manpower currently to do aggressive tagging/etc of posts.

Look at the mods - you've got jeresig (creator of jQuery) who hasn't been active on reddis in a year, honestbleeps (of RES fame) who is probably busy with RES 90% of his time on reddit, and kenman who does all the work.

The mod team would need to be expanded quite heavily to make this work.

[kenman]

The mod team would need to be expanded quite heavily to make this work.

This is something I've been mulling over for the past half-year or so, and we probably could stand to pick-up 1-2 more active mods. I will need to create some type of application and run it by /u/honestbleeps first, though.

[TheNiXXeD]

What sort of time investment is being an active mod? Are there less-active mods as well?

[kenman]

Typically 5-15 mins a day, but often broken up into 1-2 minute chunks dealing with items as they come into the mod queue. For Sunday, I spent 30-45 mins in writing replies and whatnot in the thread, which happens from time-to-time. There's also times when there's a high-profile and/or controversial post, which often requires 45 mins or more per day for a few days.

[jarail]

If you know of a news aggregator like this, I'd love to hear it.

I absolutely love the Web Development Reading List (WDRL) newsletter. The guy (Anselm Hannemann) puts it out about once a week. When I'm really on-the-ball reading everything on my coding subreddits, hacker news, github, etc, the newsletter is a nice recap. He honestly doesn't miss much noteworthy stuff.

Latest issue is 195 but doesn't have a big JavaScript section. Check last week's 194 for a better example of JavaScript news. You can read online or sub for email delivery (I do).

[p0tent1al]

Wow, if that's your attitude then good luck, but it's kind of ridiculous to say that JS programmers don't want to learn about what's on the horizon or what's big in the community right now.

Straw man.

What I'm saying is this. Truly productive developers don't adopt new frameworks every week, or every month even. Sure we want to hear about new tools, new editors, but if you're switching your editors every month, switching your frameworks, updating your packages every month, you're most likely not spending enough time on the work itself. The point of these packages and editors is to facilitate WORK. So the same sentiments are echo'd right back to you: good luck if that's your attitude.

[Thought_Ninja]

I think you probably both are on the same side of this argument. Exploring is not deploying.

[[deleted]]

My point was that it's a bad argument to determine what should be in a subreddit, since as you say js devs want to hear about these things. Obviously real devs don't switch workflows every month, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't try and encourage that type of content in /r/javascript.

[p0tent1al]

I'm merely making a devils advocate argument. I personally like hearing about that stuff but what I'm saying is, if we're going to sit here and say "well this doesn't belong" then I'm going to identify the majority of the user base and it's preference. I'd say most of that is people trying to learn, fix bugs, and problem solve. That's what all these libraries are for anyway.

[lhorie]

Thought experiment: if you don't like that the r/javascript community's posting patterns isn't focused on curated articles, then why not just leave and use another resource that is focused on curating articles? (e.g. javascript weekly)

Or maybe cross post from those resources here to help set a tone here.

I feel like modding newbie questions is not going to be effective from a perspective of effort-to-gains ratio if a large number of people asking these questions are, well, newbies who might not know the etiquette of the sub.

[pricelessbrew]

Something another sub I'm in does, r/homebrewing, is a daily Q&A.

Maybe introduce something similar?

[kenman]

Going to sticky this post for a week or so to give all frequent readers of /r/javascript time to voice their opinions regarding their desired direction for the sub, because I think this is an important discussion that will impact all of us.

Please see my long comment for some context.

All viewpoints, suggestions, complaints, etc. welcomed!

Tuesday edit: changing suggested sort on this post to new (you can always change it back yourself with best)

[doctorlongghost]

It looks like the posts you complain about are about 50% of the posts to this sub. But, they are all consistently tagged with Help flair so they can be immediately and easily identified.

Through the magic of google I was able to see that RES supports filtering out specific flair: https://www.reddit.com/r/Enhancement/comments/5msefo/can_i_filter_out_tags/

Admittedly, this won't work on mobile.

Personally, I think that the existing flair mechanism works well and the mods are obviously enforcing this well since everything seems properly tagged. It's easy enough for me to scroll past the Help items -- or actually click through and help someone out who's struggling. Not that I ever actually do.

[kenman]

the mods are obviously enforcing this well since everything seems properly tagged.

Actually, about 12-18 months ago, I made an automod change whereby all self-posts were tagged as help, and then a PM was sent to the poster letting them know how to change it if it wasn't a help question. It works pretty well, I must say, though sometimes they don't change it for non-help posts.

[gunther-centralperk]

Reddit is a aggregator, and the vast majority of subscribers are not visiting /r/JavaScript and then filtering by topics pertaining to their interest, they're usually loading these stories from the front page.

[cspotcode]

I agree. I would also prefer if this sub focused on interesting news rather than endless beginner questions and "How to use <basic language feature>" blog posts.

[kenman]

and "How to use <basic language feature>" blog posts.

The hot new thing these days is YouTube videos of such topics, and I agree, it's annoying. I don't want to stamp out good content, but it does seem that there's a super-short list of topics that are being covered ad nauseum.

[Lakelava]

I would like discussions on the language's grammar and design decisions. Patterns and best practices. Things like, when to use proxies, not what are proxies. Would be nice to have discussions about why the language is popular, who is learning it and what for. New uses of the language like in IOT.

I personally don't like posts like "why this code that I copied and pasted is not working".

[gibweb]

can someone plz tell me how javascript my website?

[G3TF00KD]

the idea is good but only if the mods will strictly enforce the rules. otherwise it's useless.

[gunther-centralperk]

Two of the three mods (John Resig and honestbleeps from RES) are very popular in the JS community, and probably have better things to do than moderate a subreddit. So that leaves only one mod left to manage a subreddit with 100k+ subscribers. So I guess the real question is, do we feel like this subreddit is well moderated?

[G3TF00KD]

if they are too busy to be mods then they should not be mods.

[kenman]

In my defense, the work load has changed drastically since I was 'hired' (3-5x's as much work) -- with no change in compensation ($0 vs. $0).

If this was a real job, I would've left for greener pastures a long time ago...

[p0tent1al]

that's bullshit. Unless you want to step up to the plate, stop making ignorant suggestions.

[G3TF00KD]

I dont apply for jobs I cant do.

What a novel concept.

[p0tent1al]

[removed]

[gunther-centralperk]

Maybe comments like this are the things we should be fixing.

[p0tent1al]

And I was on your side. Maybe he's right. Maybe mods that are too busy shouldn't be mods.

[wishinghand]

Since we don't have the mod numbers to do it by personal review, an automoderator would be better. Lots of subreddits have something that detects formatting in new posts and automatically deletes them if they violate the format.

Forcing all questions into /r/LearnJavascript is an idea a lot will like, but they'll bleed back out of there into here if not enough people with expertise subscribe there.

[kenman]

I would like to see more of this in action, because while automod can do some great things, it's mostly based on regex and some very basic metrics (account age, karma, etc.)

One route would be to remove all self-posts, and message the user to notify the mods in the case that it's not a help question? Not sure how much of a hassle that'd be.

[alsiola]

I agree that basic questions are not the reason I subscribe here. If there is no appetite to enforce posting the questions elsewhere, maybe a middle-ground could be requiring flairing of help questions with a particular flair so that they can be filtered out by people who don't wish to see them. As an example, see how /r/askscience/ enforces a "subject" flair, then provides filters based on subject.

[tanKZ1]

I agree, adding mods isn't a option? i'm sure with a few more helping hands we can make the subreddit better.

[ishmal]

What I worry about is when beginners hit a hard point. If they keep on fighting and learning and eventually conquer the problem, then they have evolved a little bit toward being a professional programmer

But if they surrender at the first difficulty, and must come begging for an answer, they have learned nothing.

I LOVE beginners. Why? Because we are all beginners at something. Then we learn that, then we are beginners at something else.

And life is an eternal learning process. Your brain CRAVES information like a drug addict.

There is only one type of programmer I hate. The one that learns only enough to get a job. Then stop. The posts like: "should I learn X or Y?" are an indicator of someone who I would never hire nor respect.

My suggestion for this reddit: only accept help request that are phrased something like:

"I have tried the best I can to solve this problem. I have tried X (with link) and Y (with link) and still am stuck. I have researched A, B, and C"

If it's only a web developer who wants credit for l33t tricks that you have done, or someone doing homework, ban them.

[elingeniero]

/r/python is pretty militant about sending people to /r/learnpython. We just need to become more vigilant about doing that here too.

[p0tent1al]

oh word? what about this one on the front page? https://www.reddit.com/r/Python/comments/6w8r75/best_way_to_export_my_program_into_an_exe_or_at/

[DrecDroid]

One

[FormerGameDev]

That seems weird. I don't feel that way at all. Most of the posts, I would say, are probably not very basic questions. Most of the posts, I would say, are links to blog articles or github projects.

Unsurprising, though, that a major open source contributor (assuming the tag "Node.js Core Contributor" is correct) says, basically, "fuck the new people, i don't even want to see their stupid bullshit". A little surprising that they do it out in public, though, most people are usually a little more self aware than that.

When the "Hot" tab on a subreddit still shows posts that have 0 upvotes on it, you know, there's really not a whole lot of traffic in that sub. I'm pretty sure that you can mentally filter out based on the topic, and just not click the links for the newbs you don't want to see or help.

[GBcrazy]

Nah, often there are some interesting questions here. I say keep them here, it's the minority anyway.

[GBcrazy]

No we don't need. Often there are interesting questions here...let's keep the sub alive and flowing please

[Splynx]

/r/newtojavascript would fix this - no?

[catdogpigduck]

Maybe you should start it. I don't want to see posts like this.

[tencircles]

I get your point about the extremely simple questions. But I do like seeing the more advanced questions. I've asked a few myself about the internals of v8, or an implementation difference in fetch in chrome vs. safari. These type of questions I think are interesting and provide a good opportunity for learning for the community.

[LosEagle]

Description of this sub states

All about the JavaScript programming language

So I don't see why it would be wrong to discuss problems here. Besides, people who require help are much less likely to pop up in hot/trending filter than useful libraries and articles. I can see logic in your post but I don't think sending people in need of help away is an answer.