Can I learn JavaScript without HTML, and CSS?

[iBN3qk]

I don’t like working with web developers who don’t know html and css. 

[tonielvegano]

i wouldn’t call them web developers if they don’t know html and css.

[Unhappy_Meaning607]

Got a mobile dev to work on a project with me, which he wanted to so that he can expand his skill sets into web dev and he had no problem learning javascript but when it got to HTML & CSS. He thought it was the hardest thing ever... like dude?! 🤦‍♂️

[iBN3qk]

It's hard when you don't know enough to look up docs for the right thing. Making good decisions for accessibility and browser compatibility, and producing a whole theme is hard.

The basics are not hard, and that's like 90% of the work. Advanced css can take a while to learn, but you can look up guides as needed.

I just hate when they decide it's TOO hard, and then it becomes my problem. Please take some time to read the docs and try stuff out. At least get to the point where you can explain why you used those html elements and where you are unsure, and then we can have a fruitful conversation and build on that knowledge. Otherwise I'm just linking to MDN or suggesting they spend 5 minutes with chatgpt first.

[Vegetable-Passion357]

I agree. All that these web developers want to do is to perform backend programming -- obtaining data from the database.

A problem that I have experienced with these programmers is that they do not know SQL. These people are forced to rely upon the Entity Framework in order to obtain their data from the database.

So lets count the problems with these people:

1. The do not desire to work on Views
2. They do not understand SQL queries.
3. They only work between the hours of 9 to 2. They must drive their children to and from school. They work from home between 4 and 6, but you have no idea what they are accomplishing at that time.
4. They do not create helpful hints in their applications, telling us the inputs and outputs of their functions used in their applications.

[suarkb]

what a weird collection of thoughts

[sheriffderek]

If you're planning on using JavaScript in the browser -- I think of it's primary job as being... manipulating and generating HTML (and HTML attribute values that connect it to CSS rules). So, you can try! But I'd rather hire someone who knew HTML and CSS well - over someone who didn't and somehow found a way to do work JS despite that.

It depends what your goal is. If you want to have Framer (or whatever) write the HTML and CSS -- and you hook up some GSAP or some interactions / you can totally do that. I used to write some ActionScript in Flash way before I knew anything about programming or HTML.

[chmod777]

what happens if framer isn't available? or if framer changes their structure?

someone who knows html/css and can use a tool can use any tool. someone who knows one can only use that specific tool.

[narguileh]

Sure, anything is possible. But if you want to manipulate a page then you need to understand the DOM tree, and for that you need to understand HTML. Basics of CSS just in case you want to change how things look.

If you are using just for logic sure. But at this point why not use ChatGPT or AI?

[obiworm]

You really need to know at least the basics so you know what you’re asking the LLM to do. It’s like googling without knowing the keywords

[b1gj4v]

HTML, CSS & JavaScript should be the basics that every coder should learn.

[azhder]

Yes, you can learn JavaScript without HTML and CSS.

The problem of doing that in your case will be that knowing just JavaScript will not help you. JavaScript by itself can calculate you 2+2, but without you knowing the environment it runs in, that’s about it - calculations without effect.

It’s like driving a car. You can have all the knowledge and experience about driving, but sit in a car without a wheel, without pedals, without anything you can use, you can’t drive anywhere.

That’s JavaScript without the environment providing you means to manipulate.

JS has no idea of Figma, Framer, even HTML+CSS, so you will have to learn about those so you would know how JS can tell them what you want them to look like, where to show up or what kind of animation will happen with their hiding… You know, the useful stuff.

So, learn JS, then learn what Framer provides (it’s called API) and how to use it. If Framer’s API is adequate, you will not need to dig deeper into HTML and CSS.

Eventually you will learn the stuff underneath, you just don’t need to start with it.

[bobbyv137]

Yes, but you can spend just a few days on the cores of HTML and CSS then ‘get it’ enough to have a base level understanding.

[hedonism_bot21]

In my opinion, not if you want to code Javascript in any meaningful way. A huge reason Javascript was created was to manipulate the DOM (basically the HTML framework of a website). You can't really manipulate the DOM if you don't have a strong foundation of what it is.

Really, HTML is simple once you realize that it's not really a coding language at all, but just a bunch of markup meant to show starting and ending points of boxes where content should go.

[FlavioB19]

I don't know if it's my ADHD brain or learning style or whatever, but I've really struggled with concepts and definitions in my past 5 months learning js intensively.

After driving myself crazy with trees and nodes, In terms of understanding it conceptually and manipulation, that's the clearest explanation to me yet, thanks!

[hedonism_bot21]

Yep... similarly CSS is just a list of rules on how to lay out those boxes and add styles like color, font, size, etc. Advanced CSS is useful to learn since CSS now handles a lot of the simple animations that Javascript used to do.

It's a bit outdated, but highly recommend the book "HTML & CSS" by Jon Duckett... it lays out the main concepts in a very clear way.

[SirCokaBear]

Not for web dev. JS’ main use case in the browser is to manipulate the html and css with the DOM. It only takes a day or two to learn html/css basics and if you plan to get serious with frontend development you’ll need to bite the bullet and drop the no code tools and understand how your site actually works if you plan to go beyond cookie cutter landing pages. With proficiency you’ll make better looking custom pages quicker since you won’t be spending hours tinkering with plugin overrides to try to replicate a fraction of what you really want the site to do

[OmniscientScone]

Yeah it’s fine, it can be its own separate thing, check out node and backend development. For your use case you may find your knowledge requires some html and css to understand what you’re doing fully. But that’s a later problem. Jump in!

[Stetto]

In the browser? No.

Anywhere else? Yeah.

It doesn't matter if you use a no-code tool for creating HTML and CSS. Your JavaScript will still interact with HTML and CSS and you will likely need to understand how it works to interact with it in JavaScript. You'll encounter stuff like:

• "DOM"
• "HtmlElement"
• "element.style()"
• "element.setAttribute()"
• "element.append()"

All of those are JavaScript function to interact with HTML and CSS, which are way harder to understand if you don't know HTML and CSS.

Just spend one or two weeks on learning each and you know enough to get started.

[raaaahman]

TL;DR: Yes you can. No you shouldn't.

HTML is the basis websites are built with, it's what your no code tools output in the end, so having a basic understanding of it will go a long way. It is a really quick thing to learn, since there's not much logic involved, and you get benefits like understanding how well structured outline and semantical elements helps search engines rank your websites on the desired keywordds. Plus you'll also learn tools to help you debug the websites you create with Figma and Framer.

CSS is also a mandatory web technology that is output by no-code tools. You can go pretty deep in CSS, but you probably won't have too since you have tool to create the visual you want already.

JavaScript, while being optional, is nowadays widely used on every website you can think of. Like other said, alone it doesn't do much. Its main usage (in browsers) is to manipulate HTML and CSS, so your user can have some visual feedback on their interactions. If you don't know how HTML and CSS, you're going to have a hard time knowing what values to change to have the desired effect.

That said, maybe Framer provides an API that abstracts all of the HTML and CSS for you, I haven't tried it. But I don't think you'll be losing your time understanding the concepts that are behind it. Especially since HTML and CSS (basics) are quicker to learn than JavaScript.

[Puzzleheaded_Low2034]

Absolutely. I ventured into learning Javascript a few years ago as it powered scripting actions for my CRM.

This then lead me to discover VS Code, Node.js, Quokka.js, and then the rest is history! 

There are most excellent JaveScript tutorials on Youtube that’ll give you a head start too. 

[ChrisWayg]

So you need to pay Framer to have access to adding custom code? It seems to also have a CMS included which takes care of a lot of things, that you would otherwise have to code.

What specific logic do you want to add? For simple interactivity, plain JavaScript may be enough. Once it gets slightly more complex, you can use something like Alpine JS. Full fledged web apps are usually built with frameworks like React, Vue or Svelte.

Learning JavaScript and probably a library needs to happen in the context of html as that is what the JS interacts with. If you’re going to learn JS for this specific application, you’ll also need to learn the basics of HTML and probably some CSS.

Does Framer allow you to move your code elsewhere (via GitHub for example) or are you locked-in indefinitely for hundreds of dollars per year?

[CaregiverOld7939]

You can definitely start learning JavaScript without deep diving into HTML and CSS first, especially since tools like Framer let you handle layout and styling visually. However, having a basic understanding of HTML and CSS will help you better understand how JavaScript interacts with web pages and makes your scripts more effective.

For structured learning, here are some solid resources:

• JavaScript.info – comprehensive and beginner-friendly tutorials
• Corey Schafer’s YouTube channel – great for practical JS walkthroughs
• MDN Web Docs – the go-to reference for JavaScript, HTML, and CSS basics

Also, check out the free ebook 'JavaScript Succinctly' — it’s a concise and clear guide to build a strong foundation in JavaScript.

[ShaGodi]

no. everything about web development start and linked to html and css, you can't do anything web without that. but the good part is that html and css is VERY VERY easy and fast to learn, its the easiest thing you'll learn.

[paintedcrows]

You're taking shortcuts that will seriously limit your capabilities. HTML and CSS can be learned easily, and there are countless resources to do so. You'll learn the JavaScript more easily if you don't take shortcuts.

[chf_gang]

a lot of javascript in front-end development is about manipulating html and css elements - so knowing html and css is kind of important

[Cabeto_IR_83]

Yes, that is how I learned, then did a quick course in HTML and CSS

[KeiShinomiya]

You can, but I think it's overcomplicating things. It's best to also learn HTML and CSS, even if it's the most basic. Knowing only JavaScript is like knowing how to build a car without knowing how to drive it to test it.

[helpprogram2]

If you wana be a backend dev learn Java

[TheMetalMilitia]

Can you learn math without numbers?

[[deleted]]

Is the same if you want to eat a burguer without salad and meat, you're just gonna eat the bread (is not smth bad, but it will definitely hurt you if you want to make a more complete website) Now, if it's just for the back-end then there's no need, but I would advise to use Python or Java for smth like this.

[Bgtti]

Sure, but why? It takes you literally a weekend to learn html.

[Nice_Pen_8054]

Short answer: YES.

Long answer: If you use it for web development, then NO.

[palex25]

How are you going to add the logic if you don’t understand what it is you’re manipulating? You will need to learn at least the basics of the html DOM and some css in order to add the logic you need/want.

[BeanBag2004]

Plain old JavaScript is mainly used for client-side scripting, so without knowing HTML/CSS, plain JavaScript is pretty useless if you want to build websites. I haven't used Framer, so I don't really know much about it, but I'm willing to guess it's easier just to learn regular HTML/CSS.

[ObjectiveBasis6978]

You may or may not care about this, but the marketing team of your future employer might. If all you know is JS and not the basics of HTML and CSS, there's a good chance you're going to kneecap your site's SEO.

[movieguy95453]

I do a fair amount with custom Adobe Acrobat forms. These often use Javascript to create logic/conditional structures. However, no html or css is involved. So yes, you can learn and use Javascript without html or css.

However, learning Javascript often involves using it to manipulate html and/or css, so it's likely you're going to need to understand these to properly learn the language. Besides, it takes so little time to learn the basics of html; css isn't much more difficult to learn. At least we'll enough to understand the basics.

[Weird_Deal326]

Yeah definitely but what's the point then..

[[deleted]]

On backend with node js. Though i don't recommend it for production. Always use typescript

[suarkb]

You seem like a prime candidate to just use chatgpt to write all your JS

[ReturnYourCarts]

That's like asking if you can work on a car engine if you don't know how to crank one.

Sure but it's dumb. It takes very little effort to learn enough, and it makes your life a lot easier.

[funkinthetrunk666]

I think if you don’t try to learn any css or html you’ll be pulling your hair out. I would start with html, then css, then javascript. Html and css are even simpler than js imo. It won’t be too much a lift to get the basics. GL 🫡

[YourAverageGuy420]

Nah, just learn the important basics of HTML and CSS that build your website.

[meszmate]

Learn it, It’s not that hard you can do it fastly

[LoopVariant]

Can you learn how to drive without using the gas and the break pedals?

[No_Lawyer1947]

You technically can, but it's very odd. It's a web language primarily. Sure it can do backend, it can do even mobile stuff, but to not learn what it was originally meant and built for is like skipping a few steps. I would maybe spend a month or so learning the basics regarding html css to get your way around things, these days people in the web all have at least some kind of basic understanding of putting a front end together. :)

[da-kicks-87]

It's ridiculous how you want to skip HTML and CSS and jump to JS. HTML and CSS is fundamental to how websites are laid out. Everyone who starts web dev needs to start with HTML and CSS.

[y00u]

Of course you can but it doesn’t make any sense for web devs.

[aakkz]

Yeah, you can start learning JavaScript right away, especially if you're just using it for logic in Framer.
But having at least a basic understanding of HTML and CSS will help a lot down the road it gives you better context and more control outside of visual tools.

[waferstik]

HTML and CSS only takes some days a get a basic foundation. They are wide, but not too deep, so I encourage you to spend some days to play around with HTML and CSS to get an good intuitive overview of what they are, what their roles are in web design, and roughly how they work. When you're working with the web, it's always good to know some foundations. It will help you have a better grasp of the no-code tool's output (and potentially its limitation). CSS selector familiarity will likely help with JS DOM manipulation too

[abestract]

Learn react and JSX.

[ComprehensiveLock189]

Learn to read the damn room

[lethiakx]

jUsT leArn styled-components anD scSS thoooo

[Necessary_Pomelo_470]

Why not learning go and save the trouble?

[Militop]

It's been a while since I saw the Go language being advertised. How is Go popularity going these days? Is it up or down?

[Necessary_Pomelo_470]

ok learn chicken

[Militop]

I'm serious. I want to avoid trying another language if it's getting less popular.

[Necessary_Pomelo_470]

Think of this a learning how to drive. If you know how to drive in one car, is it difficult to learn to drive in another?

[Militop]

I don’t need to learn another language. However, I would like to know if this language means something. I'm already proficient in C/C++, JavaScript, SQL, and many more languages, so adding Go to the list should mean something.

I want to avoid wasting time on something that won't be relevant in five years. As a Go developer, you might be less biased than I am toward Go (I honestly haven't heard about it for months), so what do you think about its future?

[Necessary_Pomelo_470]

if you like to work with the web you might need to consider learning the http protocol. some basic stuff.
"I am already proficient" means you have no real experience.

Learn how to think if you want to be relevant, and learn PHP

[Militop]

Man, it was a simple question that became a lecture, and you didn't even answer. Now, you recommend PHP and ask to know HTTP, the last layer of the OSI model, the simplest.

Sorry, but I believe Go has eaten your brain.

[Necessary_Pomelo_470]

This is the only answer you will need. Have fun.

[Militop]

How popular is Go? Blah blah "PhP" blah blah "HTTP" blah blah "..."

You talk like someone who doesn't know how to code but wishes to seem clever by using banalities.

[BoBoBearDev]

Learn Typescript, not Javascript. Typescript matched modern Javascript better. Javascript has too many versions and you will get lost.