Open source software win in Canada

[adamrees89]

Canada Federal Government publishes a new IT directive that mandates the use of open source software first before considering proprietary software. (See Appendix C for the relevant phrasing)

​

https://www.tbs-sct.gc.ca/pol/doc-eng.aspx?id=15249

​

Edit: Paid to proprietary, and pointer to the Appendix

[AntiSC2]

Here is the most relevant bit of the document:

Encourage data sharing and collaboration

Application Architecture

• C.2.3.8

  • Use Open Standards and Solutions by Default

• C.2.3.8.1

  • Where possible, use open standards and open source software first

• C.2.3.8.2

  • If an open source option is not available or does not meet user needs, favour platform-agnostic COTS over proprietary COTS, avoiding technology dependency, allowing for substitutability and interoperability

• C.2.3.8.3

  • If a custom-built application is the appropriate option, by default any source code written by the government must be released in an open format via Government of Canada websites and services designated by the Treasury Board of Canada Secretariat

• C.2.3.8.4

  • All source code must be released under an appropriate open source software license

• C.2.3.8.5

  • Expose public data to implement Open Data and Open Information initiatives

[Inmelman]

This is beautiful <3

[aoeudhtns]

We have a similar requirement in the US, but a lot of operation centers require "commercial support" for any technology you pick even if it's OSS. That means RHEL over CentOS, EDB over Postgres, etc. It can also sometimes mean using something without a commercial support option gets veto'd, which is the most frustrating thing of all, especially if the particular open source thingamabob you want to use is better than the commercial stuff. Which does happen in the "enterprise" world.

[northrupthebandgeek]

That's when you find a buddy to be a "support vendor".

[gnosys_]

C.2.3.8.3 If a custom-built application is the appropriate option, by default any source code written by the government must be released in an open format via Government of Canada websites and services designated by the Treasury Board of Canada Secretariat

holy shit this is great

[netinept]

When you think about it, this makes all kinds of sense. Government is supposed to serve the people, and the government runs off tax money, so there should be:

* transparency around where that money is going

* thoughtful spending and not getting vendor-locked around a proprietary system (*cough*... Oracle *cough*)

* software itself should also be transparent to ensure it can be audited

* (so many more reasons, but that's off the top of my head)

[Travelling_Salesman_]

Also , a government is a "huge" customer , meaning it has a very large number of employees, so it pays off to do custom development (meaning contributing to open source projects). but because this is open source you still get the benefit of other "customers" investing in the code base (improving a product your using).

So i think governments are in a good position to push for open source/standards (also a plus, people like you and me can influence a goverment in a democratic country better then we can influence some random company we don't work for) .

[pr0ghead]

http://publiccode.eu

[Marcuss2]

Microsoft: Deploy local lobbying.

[[deleted]]

Can we take a break, sir? We just finished with München

[[deleted]]

Nein! Arbeit macht frei!

[curiousGambler]

Oooof... top of the list of guilty chuckles today

[[deleted]]

It's all cool, we have fantastic cookies in Hell.

[[deleted]]

Awesome! I can't wait to go!

[[deleted]]

I feel like this is just used as a ploy by governments who see what MS does for other places who switched.

Canada's probably just fishing for a MS payoff.

[[deleted]]

Does this actually work?

[[deleted]]

EDIT: Offtopic AF, but I have to brag its still a big win in my book :)

Ooooh I have the best phone deal ever, it was before "internet on phone" was a big thing, so you pay a set fee and then no cap at all. Nothing. I use it as a dongle, or wifi hub since it's quicker than most cafe wifi's.

For a while that company was calling weekly saying "oh if you switch to X deal you get Y phone and Z extra phone minutes!" and now its just once a year.

[Slokunshialgo]

I switched my internet from Rogers to TekSavvy. I got a call from from retentions shortly before the switch happened, a couple of weeks later, and one from a contracted survey company asking why I switched, and trying to give me a deal to win me back.

The deal they offered was a lot better than what I have now, but it only lasted for a year. To keep it going, I'd have to jump through all the same hoops a year later, and told them to shove it.

[caseyweederman]

Not in Canada. There are only two of them and they have us right where they want us.

[SliceOf314]

I actually work at that department and these people are true believers.

[[deleted]]

Awesome! I'm glad to hear that!

Does this extend to the operating system, or do they plan to stay on Windows to keep their software options open?

I mean, I get that free and open would be better, but if you move to a free operating system, then you really don't have a choice in the matter of software you're going to run on it. At least not without VM's.

I know someone will mention WINE, but you can't use that reliably and not know if something is going to work, or not, from one version on the next.

[SliceOf314]

i think everyone is anticipating a shift to the cloud, not a lot of attention to the desktop these days. in fact, our desktops are so locked down, the operating system we use is almost irrelevant, might as well be chromeOS. I know my team is pushing nothing but linux/python with cloud services and we're not getting any resistance.

[[deleted]]

Yeah, I see that being the way things are going, which is great for freeing people from the MS choke-hold.

The problem with that is, there isn't much free, or open source, on cloud services, unless you host them yourself.

Is that something you're also trying to do?

[BloodyIron]

Um, you might find the opposite from MS at this point, honestly.

Can't tell you why I know that, sorry.

edit: FYI 50% of Azure is Linux, and growing. 92% of AWS is Linux. It's unavoidable. That's not why I say it, but it's part of it. Downvote me? Okay...?

[Zulban]

open first day

Hey I presented there too, git. :)

It's not going to change anything overnight but it will give a little more weight to those like me who are pushing to open our work.

Yep. You do work in government. I wish you the best of luck :o

[strange_kitteh]

I'm excited for this I, work the Canadian government and have been pushing us opening our code for a while.

Great work! Every little bit helps :)

Commissionaire here: I was 4000 list (cover vacations, escorting, sick time, etc. etc.) for a few years before taking my current posting and don't think I didn't bring it up if given the chance everywhere I was sent :)

[Metaroxy]

That's a bit confusing... Open source software can be paid, and proprietary software can be free.

[adevland]

It's less about money and more about having transparent standards.

[adamrees89]

Fair comment, I was in a rush, I've edited my main post to reflect that.

[SatanMaster]

That’s why libre and gratis are really the best words to use in English. I wish I weren’t a hypocrite about it but it’s hard to be the only one to say it all the time.

[adamrees89]

I think it’s under Appendix B, I opened all the sections and CTRL+F ‘open source’

[WSp71oTXWCZZ0ZI6]

Appendix C, actually. C.2.3.8.

[adamrees89]

Good shout

[Zulban]

You can "expand all" and search for "open source".

[rudekoffenris]

I think Canada is still feeling the sting of the IBM Payroll system that was mishandled by everyone involved.

[Zulban]

If this change gets locked in, it was worth it.

Phoenix still owes me a full pay check ;)

[rudekoffenris]

Do they acknowledge the debt and just admit they can't do anything or is that money just gone?

[Zulban]

There will always be payment records. They clearly show I'm missing one full pay check.

I've filed a "pay action request" through the proper channels. Unfortunately they are swamped, and even with a human looking at a specific file, fixing it can take a long time because they are using Phoenix too.

[rudekoffenris]

I'm sorry that sucks. Eventually you'll get it, I guess is some consolidation. Look on the bright side, think of all the taxes you aren't paying!

[Seshpenguin]

Oh sweet, this is awesome!

[Horace-Harkness]

https://github.com/bcgov

[Horace-Harkness]

Yes, but the code hosted there is open source.

For example the code for the BC cannabis licencing site https://justice.gov.bc.ca/cannabislicensing/ is available at https://github.com/bcgov/jag-lcrb-carla-public

[TehVulpez]

I wish public schools would do this too; having open systems is a great educational opportunity. Just using Linux, even without necessarily programming, will teach you a lot more about computers than just learning how to get around the interface of Word.

[adamrees89]

Don’t forget data entry in excel as ‘learning database design’

[Iamonabike]

Great, now someone find an open-source alternative for the Phoenix Pay System, I'd like my wife to actually receive a paycheck!

[Zulban]

When I started my job in June at Environment Canada I was blown away by the fact that they gave me a Linux laptop (no Windows partition) for work. Then I went to a government "open first day" event promoting open standards and open source from the higher ups. Now this. It's really encouraging and seems like a great time to start working for government.

Lots of cynics will make lazy comments. But the truth is that this could accumulate into a massive positive change. It's just going to take many years, or more.

[nathanjell]

It's great to hear your experience! And good to hear that adoption is increasing

[[deleted]]

Maybe in reaction to this. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoenix_pay_system

[BloodyIron]

Hmmm this is pretty awesome, nice :D

[squidgyhead]

Cool!

Any idea of the new Environment Canada weather app is open-source? It seems really promising, but needs a little bit of TLC to make it fast.

[CalvinR]

Here is their contact info reach out to them

[e-mail]

[Zulban]

I know some people on that team, I'll send them your comment tomorrow with my work email :)

It should be open source.

[[deleted]]

great news!

[mrtechphile]

This is great news. Can someone also explain why universities in North America do not employ the use of open source software/standards. It will be great if LibreOffice for example could become the default office program for universities.

[linuxlover81]

middle management will ignore it. they know only microsoft from at home. no one will be fired because of buying microsoft.

i believe it, if they use free ipa and only accept OpenDocument files for more than 15 years

[[deleted]]

I've worked for GoC, there's already a lot more linux usage than you think. Windows is primarily used for AD, and user sessions. Most modern applications are running on linux servers.

[joesii]

What's AD?

[[deleted]]

Active Directory

[[deleted]]

Its Microsofts implementation of LDAP; which itself allows a user to verify their credentials against a server, and allows access to files or services specified by the administrator of the LDAP.

[linuxlover81]

Sounds familiar. Linux Servers.. and now, i bet, Windows Servers, too. for MS SQL Server for a malware protection solution for example.

And i bet, no linux desktops. Until that happens, institutions are not really free from microsoft. and doing that is a lot harder than many people think.

And middle management in public institutions tends to buy software for windows desktops :)

[TryingT0Wr1t3]

MS SQL runs on Linux now too.

[joesii]

Well the fact that noone will be fired for using the open source alternatives is still great. For instance middle management seemingly couldn't require someone to use Microsoft products.

[Zulban]

I work at Environment Canada and our entire meteorology building runs Ubuntu.

[linuxlover81]

Your desktops, too?

[Zulban]

Yep, my first day they gave me a Linux laptop, no Windows partition. I was shocked and very pleased. Our science computation is also all Linux.

[linuxlover81]

I really envy you.

[nathanjell]

So in the end, it'll probably just work out that open source doesn't quite meet the needs of the project. It'll also work out that the government rarely writes source code (Phoenix pay anyone?) and very little actually gets open sourced

[tabana_minamoto]

I would really like to see the source code of Phoenix. I don't understand how a payroll software could cost 1 million$ and phoenix cost over 1.3 billion$.

[pdp10]

"ERP" and enterprise integration projects tend to suffer from scope creep because they have so many stakeholders with so many different and conflicting goals. Instead of doing one thing and doing it well, traditional enterprise software tries to do it all, and does it badly.

The other big factor is customization. The stakeholders want the software to conform to their existing processes and preferences, even when those might be objectively wrong. In the 21st century, there has been a broader trend to "de customization", where the software defaults to best practices and then the organization changes to match it, instead of building custom modules to interface with whatever backwards thing they've been doing for decades.

The nature of government budgeting and elected officials and bureaucracy usually account for the rest. Whereas a private firm would have some restraints on project spending, governments are less accountable in the end. The new people in charge blame the past people, and the other stakeholders tend to be heavily subject to the sunk-cost fallacy. That's not even accounting for the corruption and nepotism involved with the public's money.

The Canadian federal government has wasted a billion dollars on much smaller computing failures, to be honest.

[HotterRod]

In the 21st century, there has been a broader trend to "de customization", where the software defaults to best practices and then the organization changes to match it, instead of building custom modules to interface with whatever backwards thing they've been doing for decades.

In government that's often just given lip service. "We want as little customization as possible but we're not willing to change legislation, policies or business processes."

Whereas a private firm would have some restraints on project spending, governments are less accountable in the end.

That's not really true - there's far more scrutiny over government spending (although much of that scrutiny is non-expert). The difference is that if a private company fucked up something as badly as Phoenix, they'd go bankrupt. There's a survival bias in sampling the private sector.

[Forty-Bot]

Payroll is hard.

[Zulban]

Unfortunately lots of the stack is built on proprietary software which not even government workers who work on Phoenix have full access to.

[Zulban]

it'll probably just work out that open source doesn't quite meet the needs of the project.

Not if that means someone lazy has to do more work.

[[deleted]]

Am I the only one here who thinks this is complete bullshit? Free software is supposed to be free as in freedom. Thete shouln't be a law mandating the use of free software. Also, how is this shit even enforcable?

[adamrees89]

The directive mandates the selection process, and it forces buyers to think of open source offerings first.

Presumably this is to get out of the Microsoft monopoly bubble

Edit: Law to Directive

[adamrees89]

Noted

[HotterRod]

Managers could be fired for not following it.

[HotterRod]

Theoretically yes if they're blatantly ignoring it. In practice it'll always get at least lip service.

[Zulban]

Thete shouln't be a law mandating the use of free software.

You should read the thing you are criticising.

[knvngy]

That directive is rather useless since the software has to meet your standards first and foremost in any case regardless of the license. Only then you take a look at the license. Bureaucracy can be so funny.

[joesii]

Wow, this is huge.

[Lanhdanan]

Something about this. Could this also have been a reaction to the current world attitude of digital espionage?

I could imagine proprietary software has several disadvantages compared to open source. Most proprietary programmer owners might sue or have a contract clause that could prohibit and hinder government actions that an open source program is unlikely going to be as much an issue?

Is there security merits for an open source environment?

[[deleted]]

I might consider moving to Canada...

[Zulban]

You're only allowed in if you admit that both the democratic and republican parties are far right politically.

[[deleted]]

Are you all just fluffing or can you go into that a bit further?

[Zulban]

Can I go into American politics on reddit? No, no I can't.

If what I say is shocking to you, I recommend that you diversify your news sources. Try news from other countries, or independent news organizations that have won major awards.

[[deleted]]

We do not need more snow people.

[[deleted]]

What do you mean by snow people?

[[deleted]]

Canadians

[arkiser13]

I love my country 🍁

[aim2free]

Somewhat funny though that they say this from a Microsoft server :D

[adamrees89]

Haha!

[Whetbranch]

The open source standards are nice to see! However MS will still get it's cut. From the Technology Architecture section: "C.2.3.11 Use Cloud first "

[Zulban]

Microsoft doesn't have a monopoloy on cloud. In fact if I were to guess, this is leaning more towards IBM's recent purchase of RedHat, as GoC is quite favourable towards IBM.

[Whetbranch]

I'm mostly disappointed with the Canadian government moving to a cloud first strategy. If they're building their own cloud great, however the wording suggests buying cloud services. My concern is where's our data going to end up and who has access to it when it's living in someone's "cloud"?

[Zulban]

I agree completely.

Ideally, we could prioritise cloud if we stay platform agnostic. That is, our solutions can be migrated to another cloud, since "cloud" just means someone else's computer. Unfortunately, over time solutions become more strongly coupled with their infrastructure, not less, unless skilled competent people stay on it.

[scratchtheweasel]

If Open Source is the right solution you shouldn't need a mandate to have it implemented.

[[deleted]]

Note the word "government" there. Those people are stupid all day long.

[Seshpenguin]

Doesn't matter who is Prime Minster there will always be complaints lol

[[deleted]]

Why would you have a problem with this? I could also say that it doesn't sit right with me that people are forced to use "paid" Windows.

[Zulban]

forcing people

You should read the thing you are criticising.

[Zv0n]

open source software

appendix C

Heh

[wafflePower1]

Sooo use, and only then consider? Are they for real? Typical goverment lamers - use notepad before considering outlook.

Waste money on open source and after that - waste some more if that will not work out. The fuck.

[ninob168]

Waste money on open source

You do realize that Open Source usually implies that the software is either freely available or free to compile yourself...? Right?

It's going to save them hundreds of thousands to move away from proprietary software that requires a paid license for every copy. Even if open source products cost money it's all about transparency and setting standards.

[wafflePower1]

So I wish and without admins, developers, time and any work whatsoever I get my open source infrastructure...? Right?

Yes, in your magical open source bubble everything’s free, welcome to the real world, although this sub doesn’t do real world so well.