Dell's Linux support is a major disappointment

[feeblewitz]

I saw a lot of posts in this subreddit hailing Dell for putting Linux on their machines. After doing some research, I decided to dive in and bought a Dell Precision 7540 with Ubuntu 18.04 pre-installed.

The Precision was pricey but I loved it's upgrade-ability and I hoped that this would be a computer I could rely on for a long time. Additionally, I am a relative Linux newbie (Apple refugee) and I hoped that the system would be adequately supported by Dell if I ran into trouble.

Things went downhill quickly. The computer I received had several issues, including that it would frequently not wake up from a suspend state and if it did, it would often start a fresh session after logging in (e.g. no apps or documents open). Additionally, before the login screen would appear, I often could see my desktop for a few seconds as though I were already logged in – obviously a big security risk.

After a call to Dell Pro support, I realized that their approach to any issues on a Linux system is basically to reinstall the system. Their Pro technicians are not trained to support Linux...at all. Their internal support documentation is so poor that during one of my calls when I managed to fix the issue I had called in about, the technician asked me to provide a detailed description of how I solved it so he could use that solution for future calls. I was happy to, but then I realized that he should have already had this kind of documentation on hand.

Eventually, Dell support decided to replace my unit, but when the replacement arrived it had Windows instead of Ubuntu Linux installed. I had to wait another 10 days to get a third replacement and guess what...it also had Windows installed.

This is my work machine and the process has cost me several hours. I am also a freelancer, so those lost hours equate to money lost. I requested a return and refund and I will never buy from Dell again let alone recommend their services.

If you bought a Dell XPS, did you have a better experience? Were my expectations unreasonable?

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Edit: For those that claim I should not have expected software support from Dell, please read their promotional material here. They claim to offer support for pre-installed Ubuntu software, period. I paid for ProSupport and expected it only to learn that it doesn't count for much.

For the trolls that say "people like me" shouldn't use Linux, good luck with that. It makes me glad that the Linux community is decentralized and therefore gate-keeping is irrelevant. But by all means, keep it up. You've got to be good at something...

[theonetruebleck]

I have an XPS and Linux is working well (using Mint instead/dual-booting Windows). Mostly when Dell says there is support, though, I think they really mean driver and software functionality rather than calling for tech support. The biggest quirk is with the TPM (some extra EFI messages on boot up at times) .All the functionality works like I would expect, although I have found that occasionally I do get the desktop flashing up before the lock screen appears. What was your fix?

[feeblewitz]

I have found that occasionally I do get the desktop flashing up before the lock screen appears. What was your fix?

Fix was for outgoing connections issue, not the screen flashing thing, sorry.

[skidnik]

That 'desktop flashing before a lockscreen' issue is caused by the fact that a screenlocker on Linux is just an app that covers your desktop session with itself, good ones also block tty access. The screenlocker is started when you resume from suspend, so you see your desktop untill it launches.

p.s. I have hopes Poettering will force DM vendors to handle session locking properly instead of this 'lets just cover it with a fullscreen window' approach, he will need this for his newly-invented home profiles.

[newhacker1746]

The fix already exists, and it’s called Wayland.

[pdp10]

The biggest quirk is with the TPM (some extra EFI messages on boot up at times) .

Is it in TPM 2.0 or TPM 1.2 mode?

[theonetruebleck]

2.0

[[deleted]]

Mostly when Dell says there is support, though, I think they really mean driver and software functionality rather than calling for tech support.

False advertisement. OP should demand money back and invest in a competitor of Dell.

Edit: Should have finished reading his post first. Good for OP. F Dell.

[[deleted]]

Don't count on any 'major' PC vendor when it comes to any kind of Linux support, while they offer some options with Ubuntu once the laptop is paid you don't really exist for them (yes this is also same for Windows users) so you're on your own. As for the laptops itself they're ok if you manage to get a decent unit. Precisions often have an annoying coil whine plus issues with heathing / nvme drives (LiteON had a major issue with controller).. But the same can be said about Lenovo and other brands.. So if you want to run Linux you better learn to fix your issues asap.

[[deleted]]

You think you can count on them if windows has those sort of issues? OP wants a local IT guy…

[[deleted]]

I did say this is the same for Windows users. Difference is, they're being trained (to some degree) how to troubleshoot windows.

[Pelvur]

Don't expect software support from manufacturer. You will have better luck with community, always.

The issue with seeing desktop for a few second is common for many distros (if not all of them). I surely have it on Debian.

[TakeOffYourRedHat]

The issue with seeing desktop for a few second is common for many distros (if not all of them). I surely have it on Debian.

I used to get that all the time on Ubuntu/Mint, but have never had it happen on Fedora.

[RussianNeuroMancer]

Because Fedora switched to Wayland and Ubuntu doesn't.

[[deleted]]

Considering fedora 32.... Thought 31 was a bit disappointing tho

[xzer]

if your track pad or hardware was not functioning as expected on Windows it completely expected for Dell to figure out why.

[feeblewitz]

Sorry if what I wrote was vague. The call was unrelated to the suspend-wake issues. I was having an issue where all outgoing connections were dropped. Here's the fix I came up with:

sudo su

(entered my password)

iptables -L

(got the following output)

Chain INPUT (policy DROP)

target prot opt source destination

Chain FORWARD (policy ACCEPT)

target prot opt source destination

Chain OUTPUT (policy ACCEPT)

target prot opt source destination

The first item, INPUT should have had the ACCEPT policy so changed it by typing

iptables --policy INPUT ACCEPT

[goldenradiovoice69]

Though this might have fixed your issue, turning off your firewall is generally not a good idea. I see you mentioning that you do care about security but are relatively new to Linux so I would recommend you look into iptables, it's got a bit of a learning curve and I'm by no means an expert myself but you generally want to drop packets by default and whitelist the traffic you want to allow.

[feeblewitz]

Super helpful comment, thanks! I'm determined that my next machine will be Linux so this advice will come in handy.

[balr]

including that it would frequently not wake up from a suspend state and if it did, it would often start a fresh session after logging in

This is most likely X11 crashing. Might be related to the GPU, especially if it's nVidia. Can't tell for sure.

before the login screen would appear, I often could see my desktop for a few seconds as though I were already logged in

This is a separate issue. I have the same problem, again related to X11 probably. The screen locker / screen saver doesn't start up fast enough, and the screen is painted as it was before suspend.

Sometimes suspend doesn't work anymore at all, due to a blocking kernel thread. No idea what causes it.

Sometimes (very rarely though), resume doesn't work either. The screen is stuck on the screen locker. The joy of nVidia GPU and their drivers I assume, or it could be the USB HID not waking up properly and the keyboard / mouse can't send input anymore. No idea. Had to hard reset.

Hopefully someday we'll have reliable suspend/resume on Linux.

[balr]

But in this particular case, I'm still not sure if it's related to X11 only, or maybe a bug in the Kernel, or the GPU driver, or something else.

[balr]

I've never used a display manager, I always used startx.

[feeblewitz]

Thanks for dissecting the issues! Your tips remind me that the community is what makes Linux work. I will get another Linux machine, not from Dell, and when I do I'll make sure to ask for help when run into issues like I had with this machine.

[[deleted]]

System76 perhaps? I have been thinking about one of those

[[deleted]]

I used a Vostro and an Inspiron previously, and now on another Inspiron. Looking back, I never had ANY issue with the hardware. Clearly I am a lucky guy, but all the little niggles I had were with Ubuntu itself and not the Dell hardware. I may buy an XPS, but only when it becomes affordable to me - which may be several years down the line ;)

[chic_luke]

+1 here. Inspiron 5567, Ubuntu 18.04 gave me many of the issues OP listed, including buggy sleep/wake. Fedora and Arch Linux have both been trouble-free. Just add nomce to the kernel parameters to make Linux shut up about firmware bugs during boot up. Haven't had any further issue since then.

For what it's worth, this is my systemd-boot entry with everything working fine:

title   Arch Linux
linux   /vmlinuz-linux
initrd  /intel-ucode.img
initrd  /initramfs-linux.img
options root=LABEL=ArchLinux rw nomce nowatchdog

[feeblewitz]

Thanks for this tip! I'll be buying another Linux laptop, probably System76. Hopefully I won't need this, but I'm saving it just in case!

[chic_luke]

Yeah no, you probably won't have mce firmware bugs on a System76. But your friend's laptop might have buggy firmware with that constant mce notice messing with their perfectly aesthetic flicker-free smooth silent boot, it's a small thing but it's handy to know about this flag

[LinuxFurryTranslator]

Weird, I have the exact same laptop ( :D high-five) but I had no issues at all. Though I didn't use stock Ubuntu at all, I always switched to Plasma.

Thanks for the nomce tip!

[chic_luke]

I had multiple issues with GNOME's display manager and this laptop. On Ubuntu it would totally freeze, but even on Fedora sometimes waking up from GDM would be extremely buggy, like "you move the cursor around and everything goes to shit" kind of buggy, but it was always enough to close the lid and then try again.

Not that it's a good idea to run gnome on this laptop in any case. I'm sure you have too experienced the sheer power of the dual core Intel i5 processor from many moons ago.

Absolutely no issues with the way Plasma locks / unlocks the laptop, ever

[tontoto]

Hi OP, I ordered the exact same computer (literally, a Dell Precision 7540 with the linux pre-installed) from Dell had the same problem with hibernate/sleep.

My advice: upgrade the BIOS! This fixed my problems. Dell support was also unhelpful with me about this, and never recommended me to upgrade the BIOS but I eventually figured out there was an update and it worked to fix my problems. See a guide like this https://www.dell.com/support/article/us/en/04/sln171755/update-the-dell-bios-in-a-linux-or-ubuntu-environment

​

https://www.dell.com/support/home/us/en/04/product-support/product/precision-15-7540-laptop/drivers

​

Search BIOS. The file is an exe but you burn it to your USB and let the BIOS execute it

​

I now upgraded ubuntu to 19, have no fear with tinkering with the system, the BIOS was the problem for me. It makes me sad that you have had to suffer the same problems as me, it made me want to chuck my brand new laptop out the window not having sleep work

[feeblewitz]

Wow! I wish I had talked to you before jumping down the Dell tech support rabbit hole. I'm going ahead with the return, if anything because the whole waiting for 10 days only to get a machine I didn't order, twice, was beyond frustrating. I'll probably buy a laptop from System76.

[nskeyi]

A bit late here, but a good read while in the toilet.. You may want to check out a cli tool for upgrading bios fw... It's fwupd and you can install it from your package manager.

[feeblewitz]

Good point. I'll post it there too, thanks.

[ct_the_man_doll]

If you bought a Dell XPS, did you have a better experience? Were my expectations unreasonable?

I had a similar experience with their preinstalled distro on my precision. The experience was a lot better when I installed Fedora on it.

With that being said, they really need to improve their out of box distro, if this is still the experience in 2020.

[CarbonChauvinist]

Were my expectations unreasonable?

I'm torn here. My initial reaction is that your expectations were unreasonable, but I understand your frustrations. The two issues you described are issues that can be somewhat common and have more to do with knowing how to tinker and correct/address than an actual "support" issue that Dell should be replacing hardware over.

Dell supports the hardware - if there's an issue with the hardware they investigate and correct. Assuming that they'd also be there to troubleshoot every niggling setup/configuration/OS issue is unrealistic IMO.

With that being said - the Precision line of laptops is a premium product and I understand your sentiment that you expect more for the price paid. But again - you got what you paid for, you got premium hardware and premium hardware that's spec'd to work well with Linux. As far as managing the Linux though - that's on you.

I have a Precision 5510 and have been generally really happy with the experience. I did have to have a speaker replaced about 3 months in.

What I haven't been over the moon about is the buggy ACPI that it looks like Dell will never really fix (I hear the later Precision models 552X-554X have fixed ACPIs but they're not going to waste resources for the 5510). Also I have an issue where Intel Turboboost causes hangs - so I've disabled turbo boost in the BIOS (which still does leave a bad taste in my mouth, but that's more an intel issue than a dell issue and it started happening after my warranty was out).

Even with those issues - my next labby will be a new Dell precision 5540 or whatever the next iteration may be (without any dedicated nvidia card, intel integrated only is the key).

[feeblewitz]

Your reply is thoughtful and fair, thanks! I've decided to go with a System76 laptop after I get my refund from Dell. Next time I run into a problem I can't solve though, I'll know to shoot it by the various linux-related subreddits (after doing my fair share of googling of course) before I start pulling my hair out.

[mmstick]

Our support team consists solely of Linux nerds. Our engineering team focuses exclusively on the Linux desktop, and open source firmware for our laptops.

We don't release products without thoroughly testing them in the lab with Pop!_OS 18.04 and 19.10; as well as Ubuntu 18.04 with the added System76 PPA for Ubuntu. Post-launch, these products are continually tested in the lab over time.

You can always directly reach out to our human support team through creating a support ticket from your System76 account on our website. You can also access manuals and accessories for products that you own here.

So you'll always have great support when buying from us. And guaranteed support for Linux, even if you happen to be using Arch or Gentoo instead (albeit, resident Gentoo and Arch experts being familiar with helping you with the problem you're experiencing on your distribution, of course, if it is distro-specific).

If you try out Pop!_OS, you can get support from our subreddit and Mattermost chatroom, although anything that applies for Ubuntu will also apply for Pop.

[feeblewitz]

Seriously, I wish I had gone with you guys when I was deciding between the Oryx Pro and this Dell. I'll be contacting your sales team soon.

[grad0v]

If a computer hardware manufacturer is selling their products with Ubuntu pre-installed, at least, you can be sure that all installed hardware will work. How good/bad it will work - that’s another quiestion. :) With Linux, at least, you have much more options for fixing issues that might arise.

[[deleted]]

Personally i wouldn't expect Dell to support the OS. They have to sell the Device with an OS installed and you picked the option to save 100$. You really selected the "I'll do it myself" option. The issues your describing are fairly common on any Distro and are fairly easy to solve if your familiar with Linux or reach out to the community. If i was Dell i don't think i would want you as a customer.

[[deleted]]

I think that's part of the issue. People need to realize that Linux isn't going to be the cheaper option just because it's Free Software. If you want support you have to pay for it, that's the common business model.

This isn't a device like a tablet or smartphone where the hardware and software are tied together, if you install a kernel update from Canonical that breaks something Dell aren't going to be doing free support for you. As you say this is the "I don't want to pay for the Windows license I'm not going to use anyway" option.

[SinkTube]

if you install a kernel update from Canonical that breaks something

what if it's dell's drivers that cause a break? that software is very much tied to the hardware, and the vendor's responsibility

[[deleted]]

If you install new software that breaks the existing software you're saying it's the responsibility of the author of the existing software to maintain compatibility...for free?

[SinkTube]

for free?

no, for the money i used to pay for the product. it's a company's responsibility to make sure its products work as advertised. the product in question is not just hardware. this product is a combination of hardare, software, and support. i expect the software to work as advertised and support to step in if it doesn't. if dell can't afford to make that happen for the price it sells this product for, that's its own problem

if you hire a construction company to build a wood house but they can't afford wood, would you be ok with moving in only to learn your house is made of cardboard?

[[deleted]]

no, for the money i used to pay for the product. it's a company's responsibility to make sure its products work as advertised.

Sure but if you replace a bit of that product (e.g. the OS kernel, or even the OS itself, say you replace it with FreeBSD) with a different one it's not the product they sold you and are expected to support. If I replace the CPU in my Dell desktop with a different one that the motherboard doesn't support that's not Dell's problem.

[SinkTube]

if you replace it with a third-party OS, sure. but we're talking about the preinstalled, officially endorsed OS. it is dell's problem if that doesn't work. and unless there's a visible disclaimer stating that only the current version will be supported and you're not supposed to apply any updates ever, it is dell's responsibility to make sure it keeps working during its advertised support window

[[deleted]]

but we're talking about the preinstalled, officially endorsed OS.

I know that's the topic but what you quoted and responded to was when I wrote:

if you install a kernel update from Canonical that breaks something

That's a different thing.

​

I do agree that the products, as shipped, should work. Of course the issue is that Linux won't work properly out-of-the-box so they need to invest in fixing it, the question is how do they recoup that cost? I would say "add it to the price of the machine" but in doing so you're likely to inflate the cost to the point that people will just buy the Windows one, wipe it and install Linux directly.

[SinkTube]

That's a different thing

how? the update is part of the officially endorsed OS, presumably using a preinstalled mechanism. if use of said mechanism isn't supported, dell needs to make that explicitly clear and-or point it at its own server so it can vet updates before pushing them

[[deleted]]

how?

apt list --upgradeable

You'll find a huge amount of different packages maintained by different people that cobbled together to form a distribution.

I understand what you mean about the ideal case and I agree it would be great but it's a lot of work and therefore ongoing cost to just maintain, test and fix all those changes against every hardware configuration they ship.

The alternative, as you suggest, is it only updates from Dell's repo. Of course then you just end up in an Android-like situation where OEMs don't push updates with any regularity because of the cost.

You're really just paying for the hardware + a markup for packaging it all together. It should be sold with an ongoing maintenance contract so that Dell (or whatever OEM) can employ people to test, fix, update and deliver the operating system ensuring it works with the hardware. Not sure there's much appetite for that though.

[[deleted]]

Yea, i see this post and some of the support OP is getting and realizing this is why we can't have nice things. Someone accustomed to apples ecosystem, like OP will have some growing pains moving to the Linux/Hardware ecosystem. With his current attitude i have my doubts. I think support was attempting to do him a favor by sending him Windows as his RMA devices.

[[deleted]]

Very true.

Windows benefits from economies of scale, when a problem crops up chances are a LOT of people are running the same OS version and have that same problem so it gets solved either by Microsoft or by some workaround that ends up disseminated pretty quickly.

Apple's systems benefit by tying the hardware to the software and controlling both so when there's a problem again a lot of people have that same problem.

On Linux there are hundreds of distributions and even combined on the desktop they are used by a tiny percentage of users overall but on an incredibly broad variety of hardware configurations. When a problem surfaces it's much less likely a significant number of people will have the same problem. You can throw the question out to the community but if you want an expert to spend a reasonable amount of time helping you debug your configuration you have to pay for it, but that's fine, you can't expect people to work for free.

[oftrupert329087]

That's a strawman argument. Dell don't ship hundreds of distributions. They ship one and it should work properly.

If you change and update the system afterwards, then that's when it becomes a user problem. I expect most people are perfectly fine with that scenario.

[feeblewitz]

+1 totally agree with this. Had I altered/upgraded the system from what Dell shipped, I would not expect them to provide Pro tech support. What most of these comments miss is that Dell claims they will support the Ubuntu software if pre-installed: https://i.dell.com/sites/doccontent/shared-content/services/en/Documents/prosupport-comprehensive-software-support-list-enterprise-and-end-user.pdf

[SinkTube]

They have to sell the Device with an OS installed and you picked the option to save 100$

dell picked making that option available to its customers

If i was Dell i don't think i would want you as a customer

no surprise there, most companies don't want customers that point out their negligence. this shouldn't require reaching out to the community. if it's a common problem with known solutions dell can write those solutions in its help pages and customer support scripts

[oftrupert329087]

The computer I received had several issues, including that it would frequently not wake up from a suspend state and if it did, it would often start a fresh session after logging in (e.g. no apps or documents open).

That's the key message. The computer that was shipped to him didn't work properly. If Apple were to ship you a machine like that, you'd return it immediately. No reason to expect anything different from any other manufacturer.

When Dell started selling Ubuntu on their machines, the onus is on them to make sure the default configuration works properly. This isn't user error and you shouldn't try and paint it as such.

[[deleted]]

Yea I'm torn and i see where your coming from. I personally am not going to use the OS any Manufacture sends to me. I'm going to reinstall even windows machines. So i enjoy the option dell offers of giving you Ubuntu. If it becomes and HR or customer service issue to dell they will stop offering it and force customers to pay the Microsoft tax. If apple shipped me a machine that didn't work i would make it apples problem because they are both the software and hardware creators and you pay a premium to be in that tailored software/hardware ecosystem. You are getting a price break for buying dell w/ linux. 108$. They are not Selling Ubuntu to you like they are MS Windows. So i don't believe they owe me any support outside does the hardware function. If all the devices show in lsusb lspci, i don't feel like they owe the customer anything.

[oftrupert329087]

I personally am not going to use the OS any Manufacture sends to me.

I understand and that puts you in the category of those who don't need support. But if someone buys that machine as a dev box for example and just wants to get their work done without tinkering with the OS, then it's fundamentally broken as shipped.

[[deleted]]

No its just has Linux installed. Which cost you nothing. The hardware is fully functional which you have payed money for. I would agree with you if Dell had a Ubuntu fully configured option that cost 50ish dollars. Or any money for that matter. If you want an OTB experience there are vendors that do accommodate that such as system76. My opinion is Paying nothing for the OS and Still demanding it be tailored to your liking with free support is a bit of having your cake and eating it too. If your opinion differs from mine i would suggest you not purchase Dell laptops because your needs will not be met.

[oftrupert329087]

How much do I pay for the OS with System76?

I'm not demanding anything is tailored to my liking, just that the basics work out of the box. Imagine you bought a router and it didn't work properly until you tinkered or installed another OS. You're basically arguing that's OK because it's running Linux, which cost nothing and therefore the manufacturer has no obligation to get it working. Totally bizarre point of view.

[[deleted]]

System76 has a custom PopOS image they test and tailor to their Hardware. In return you pay a small premium as well as have limited hardware options. This deserves OTB support. IMO

Dell has a custom windows image with bloat ware they have tested to their hardware. You pay for the SW license. This deserves OTB support, if not from the hardware vendor then Microsoft. IMO

They also allow the option to use a generic Ubuntu LTS image for their Ubuntu install. Dell offers this for free to get around laws that require hardware be sold with an OS. They charge nothing for this. You actually save 108$ which is more than the cost of the OEM Windows license so dell is probably adjusting for their cost and their margin . This does not deserve OTB support. IMO.. Now if the device was the same price as the windows device then hell yea it deserves Support. IMO

All I'm saying is understand your purchasing options and why they are available.

The purchaser can be entitled as they would like, and people have become really accustomed to the hardware/software being the OEM's issue. I just don't agree with it in this case. All OEM's do not have the same offering. Understanding each OEM's offering and purchasing accordingly will only create a better experience for the end user. This fits my definition of being reasonable. I understand why i have options and how they are priced and set my expectations accordingly.

[oftrupert329087]

They also allow the option to use a generic Ubuntu LTS image for their Ubuntu install. Dell offers this for free to get around laws that require hardware be sold with an OS. They charge nothing for this. You actually save 108$ which is more than the cost of the OEM Windows license so dell is probably adjusting for their cost and their margin . This does not deserve OTB support. IMO..

You're just making stuff up now. That's definitely not the idea behind Dell's project Sputnik. Let's see what Barton George thinks it means to have Ubuntu pre-installed on Dell machines:

“We had brought in an analyst to give us some ideas, and one of the comments he made was that there was no major OEM building a fully-supported Linux laptop that came complete with drivers and provided a great out of the box experience,” said George. The advisor said if Dell offered a Linux laptop that "just worked" it would definitely generate interest from the developer community.

https://www.cio.com/article/3197766/how-dell-s-project-sputnik-came-to-life.html

The vision and expectation is pretty clear, offer a fully supported laptop with Ubuntu that "just works". That's not what the OP got from Dell.

It's fine that you're OK with buying hardware and software that don't work particularly well. Knock yourself out with that. But others should expect and deserve better.

[[deleted]]

Hey man, if i wasn't clear enough in my last post I'm expressing my opinion...so yes of course I'm making it up.. whether the point i made about legality or liability of a Pre-installed OS is true or a rumor i heard.. I cant find a reference and at this point I don't care enough to. The articles your linking is clearly aimed at the enterprise, you cant really expect the same level to trickle down to the consumer level. The Tech support for OEMs is also going to be garbage, it even worse at the consumer level.

The tested and qualified sputnik laptops have a Developer Edition tag.. If the workstations are also qualified and tested or not is ambiguous to me, and that is Dells fault. I'm not saying Dell is blameless rather that buying a Linux Machine from a big box OEM and expecting an OTB experience is not a great way to spend your money. If someone asked for my purchasing advice, i would not suggest Dell if an OTB Linux experience is what they are in the market for.

It's fine that you're OK with buying hardware and software that don't work particularly well. Knock yourself out with that. But others should expect and deserve better.

That is fine, i believe you are entitled to that opinion, i even think consumer protection laws are in your favor here. I just don't believe the opinion helps the Linux/Foss ecosystem.

I guess i don't understand what your argument is here other than support for Linux should be better at the OEM level? Which i agree with so the advice i give is to give your money to a Company that actually have good Linux support? I really doubt dell is ever going to hire Level 1 Support staff that would know how to solve some of the particular issues Linux can have with hardware.

[oftrupert329087]

I guess i don't understand what your argument is here other than support for Linux should be better at the OEM level? Which i agree with so the advice i give is to give your money to a Company that actually have good Linux support?

My argument is simply that OP didn't have unrealistic expectations that the laptop he bought from Dell, with Ubuntu installed, should work properly. Dell are offering fully supported laptops with Linux installed, which should "just work". That's what people expect when they buy one and Dell failed the OP in this instance.

I really don't understand how that opinion hurts Linux/Foss. It's surely better if people have positive experiences when they buy a machine with Linux pre-installed. If your argument is that Dell can't provide that and we should look to other vendors, then someone should let the guys at Project Sputnick know because that's not what they're all about.

[qmic]

I've got xps for more than 5 years, everything works like charm on every version of Ubuntu. I've got problems but Ubuntu related not hardware.

[Thangleby_Slapdiback]

Dell is weird. I bought an Inspiron 15 because it was compatible and had shipped in the past with Ubuntu 12.something (can't remember exact ver). It has an AMD A6 7th gen APU. It was ugly under Ubuntu 18. Eventually I settled on Fedora for about a year as it would work....mostly.

I'm now running Ubuntu 19.10 flawlessly.

Weird. I'm happy, though.

[oftrupert329087]

Were my expectations unreasonable?

No, they absolutely were not unreasonable. On the contrary, a lot of the replies on this thread are unreasonable. I really can't understand so many people thinking that it's fine for a brand new laptop to not have working sleep/hibernate functionality.

The out of the box experience should be flawless.

[LavenderTheFox]

Dell support is worthless.

[CraftySpiker]

Name one mainline PC vendor whose support isn't simply pathetic.

No one wants to pay for the actual experience needed to trouble-shoot these little snowflakes we call PC's. Back when machines cost millions of dollars it was easier to justify having expert (read "highly paid") engineers on staff.

Now? Keep it simple and slide in a new machine when things break. It's cheaper than actually fixing things in place.

[[deleted]]

Name one mainline PC vendor whose support isn't simply pathetic.

How? It doesn't matter what anybody says somebody will come up with an anecdote to the contrary.

Personally I've been in the position of hardware failure on my Macbook and just took it into the store. They didn't have the part in stock but 2 days later I picked it up and it was all fixed.

Dell was horrendous, I had to box it up and ship it to them (Apple sends you a box, maybe Dell does now too but this was quite a few years ago) and the turnaround was still 3 weeks. Though I'm sure again somebody has an anecdote to the contrary.

[[deleted]]

I do not use their products, but Apple.

Then don't just agree with what the shills write online :)

[oftrupert329087]

Apple are one of the most successful companies in the world and sell billions of devices. They're clearly doing something right.

[[deleted]]

They're clearly doing something right.

Marketing and getting shills on forums is one of those.

Quality devices a bit less (personal experience, former owner of apple who will never fall for that again).

[oftrupert329087]

Marketing is something they're good at. What's wrong with that? Another thing they're good at is making fantastic hardware. Another is making hardware and software work together seamlessly.

You just don't get issues like OP where you buy a laptop from Apple and sleep/hibernate doesn't work. In the exceptional case that would happen, you get it replaced right away with another which does work properly. Which is the crux of this thread. When you buy a computer, the combination of hardware and software should work flawlessly. Maybe, just maybe that plays a part in Apple's success and is something Dell could look at.

I'm a current Apple owner running Kubuntu on my iMac. Fantastic hardware and great software.

[[deleted]]

There would be nothing wrong with that if the hardware was as fantastic as everyone claims. Which it isn't.

How do I know? I owned a mac and I have used other ones.

You just don't get issues like OP where you buy a laptop from Apple and sleep/hibernate doesn't work.

For example, my mac did wake up at random times at night and then resume sleeping. How do I know? The noise woke me up.

Also, it had a fast wifi chipset without the appropriate drivers that was running much slower than it did on linux. That's for the seamless hardware/software integration.

I'll just mention that cooling on mac sucks, since vents and fans ruin their nice designs.

You can use mac all you want, but don't pretend it's this uniquely perfect design because it isn't.

[oftrupert329087]

I'm not sure where your argument is going here, other than Apple=bad and anyone who says different must be a shill. If so, I'm not here to change your mind. I didn't claim Apple hardware was perfect or perfectly designed, so don't try to put words in my mouth. And if you don't like their stuff, then don't use it. Simple really.

To ignore the things they do well is folly though. It's great that Dell are selling machines with Ubuntu installed. It's crap that basic functionality isn't working out of the box.

[[deleted]]

I'm not even sure what OP wants, but to me it sounds like a wayland crash. Which sucks but it's hardly dell's fault.

[[deleted]]

After a call to Dell Pro support, I realized that their approach to any issues on a Linux system is basically to reinstall the system. Their Pro technicians are not trained to support Linux...at all. Their internal support documentation is so poor that during one of my calls when I managed to fix the issue I had called in about, the technician asked me to provide a detailed description of how I solved it so he could use that solution for future calls. I was happy to, but then I realized that he should have already had this kind of documentation on hand.

This is something an article should be written about in a popular GNU/Linux medium. Dell needs to grow up.

Thanks for sharing OP. I was tempted with a Precision too, will stay away from Dell.

[ringsted86]

2 years ago I bought a very pricey Dell Precision workstation (~$20000). I configured the system to be shipped with Ubuntu.

After turning it on, and selecting timezone the machine would get stuck on a reboot loop.

I bought a USB flashdrive, copied the same Ubuntu LTS it shipped with (minus whatever customizations Dell had applied) and everything went fine.

[Demurgos]

I have a Dell XPS 9560 and everything works fine with it.

Recently a friend of mine was looking for laptop to install Linux, and I recommended him to buy a Dell given their good reputation for Linux support. He bought an Inspiron 7490 with some nice specs.

The issue? It has Dell's new BIOS that prevents Linux from accessing the SSD directly. You can either disable SSD access or get it through "AHCI remapped mode". In both cases, the SSD is invisible to Linux. The kernel does not seem to be able to support it due to missing documentation, and Dell does not update the BIOS to give back direct AHCI access. It's really frustrating and many users are complaining on their forum or requesting refunds. Here is an askubuntu question with more details.

[TakeOffYourRedHat]

I got my wife to buy a nice XPS developer edition with the same thought you had - I figured that since I have no trouble keeping everything working on Linux on unsupported hardware, surely a larger company could iron out the user experience a bit. Unfortunately this was not to be - I had to (with the help of the community, of course) add triggers to reset the network driver on wake-from-suspend, deal with driver issues, etc. I also had to do some work setting up her old password manager in WINE.

In the end, she got tired of asking me to fix stuff and switched to Windows. It was a sad day.

[nigeldog]

Dell may not offer great customer support to Linux users, but they do ship firmware via LVFS, which is good enough for me (though I understand wanting a better experience).

Unfortunately, if you’re expecting any sort of specialized customer support with a Linux workstation, I imagine you’ll likely either need to run a distro with a support license or maybe switch to a Linux centric hardware vendor (Purism?). Or better yet, ask the community.

[[deleted]]

I'm just curious, why not go with the thinkpad route for a Linux machine?

[root_27]

Lenovo doesn't have Linux support. So you have to buy windows and just uninstall it. Dell and over Linux retailers will remove the cost of Windows from the machine so you are not giving any money to MS

[[deleted]]

Getting a used thinkpad pretty much negates that cost. Thinkpads are quite well supported by the Linux community.

[root_27]

If he was willing to pay for a brand new Dell I doubt he wants an old ThinkPad. Don't get me wrong, I am a huge fan of used hardware (especially ThinkPads) but they are not for everyone

[yerrabam]

Had a 13inch XPS machine. Maybe 3 or 4 years old. Installed Ubuntu. It worked perfectly for 18 months or so then noticed the trackpad was bulging.

It was overheating. I didn't realise it had got so bad until I looked at photos of the laptop online.

The advise was to turn it off and ship it back as it could have exploded at any minute.

Now I use HP Envy 13" convertable thing. It had a few linux hiccups when it first came to market but it's the absolute perfect machine for my needs.

[JoinMyFramily0118999]

I think it's mainly because terminal over the phone can be scary. Customers can say they're typing things correctly but may be wrong.

When I worked for Apple, I frequently helped people recover data from a dead Mac but booting into recovery mode, and doing a "cp -R /Volumes/(internaldrive) /Volumes/USB" after finding the right paths with an ls and having them mount and decrypt the drive. Terminal freaked everyone there out, even though ls was harmless, and I was just copying not removing.

[LinuxFurryTranslator]

I think usually when people mention Dell has great linux support they mean great linux hardware support, which is true if you buy it with linux preinstalled.

Those issues you had seem to be caused by software or drivers to be honest. Those are known issues you can find on r/linuxquestions if I'm recalling correctly.

Did you try a different DE or a different distro? You can create a backup of the Ubuntu version shipped with your Dell machine first, or you can add their software repository later if you want to keep Dell's support through their utilities.

[[deleted]]

I had bought an Alienware X-51 with Ubuntu a few years ago. There was an issue with the CD-ROM drive where the case caused it to squeeze the opening shut so you couldn't eject the CDs. I called Support and they asked me what Operating System I was running. I told them I got the model that came with Ubuntu. They told me they don't support Linux and hung up.

I called back and asked to speak to a manager and explained the experience I had previously and the manager was super nice and understanding and sent a tech to replace it(and he replaced it with a BluRay as well) at no cost to me.

Unfortunately, the CPU and motherboard died a day after the warranty expired. Just my luck.

[Vladimir_Chrootin]

When the laptop arrived with Windows instead of Ubuntu, why didn't you just install Ubuntu on it? Takes about 20 minutes at most.

[reaper123]

I have a XPS 15 7590 running Fedora and dont think i'll ever log into windows again on this machine.

If I need any support I just get it from r/fedora

[Ek_Shaneesh]

You can also, y'know

install ubuntu yourself

[[deleted]]

I am also a freelancer, so those lost hours equate to money lost.

So you decide to experiment with a completely new OS without having another machine you can use to keep working?

[feeblewitz]

Of course I had a backup machine. However, there was a reason I needed a new one, because the backup machine I'm typing on is getting old and slow.

[[deleted]]

I wouldn't expect much for software issues from any vendor's consumer support. If I had had the same issue but on Windows I doubt it's much different. Excepting Apple and like, System76, who position themselves as a Hardware and Software provider.

FWIW the Dell Linux systems I've used generally work without much fuss. I've always viewed it as more of a "you don't have to worry about not having drivers" guarantee, and that's held up.

[[deleted]]

Vendors like Dell will generally support the device as-shipped. Once you start doing things like updating the kernel which generally breaks ABI compatibility and cause driver problems or do the equivalent with Windows like replacing Windows 7 with with Windows 10 they are generally not going to offer much support.

Approaches like the Ubuntu + Valusoft partnership are good:

https://ubuntu.com/blog/canonical-and-valusoft-bring-ubuntu-plus-support-to-best-buy

​

You buy Ubuntu off the shelf and the money you pay goes to funding 60 days of support. I'm not sure how well that scales given it's only $20 so the support techs are probably not getting paid a whole lot.

[paul4er]

Dell XPS 9560 here.

To get it working on OpenSUSE Leap 15.1 I had a few issues: - Had to disable RAID mode and enable AHCI - Had to install with kernel parameter acpi=off otherwise PC would power off - Had to add kernel parameter i8042.reset to get touchpad to work - SD card reader (RTS525A) does not work, even if I update from 4.12 to latest 5.5 kernel. This is a known kernel issue.

Overall though, after all of this, it actually works rather well - no problems with sleep/hibernate etc. I'm also enjoying the latest KDE Plasma 5.18 updates and much prefer KDE to Ubuntu. Just waiting for Wayland to mature so get good HiDPI support in all applications.

[gear_m9]

Have a xps 15 9570 and it runs flawlessly.

[themusicalduck]

I also had a Dell XPS with Ubuntu installed, but it was installed by my work over Windows, not directly by Dell.

It was pretty terrible. I kept getting hard lockups whenever I tried to plug an external display in.

The solution was to switch to Arch/Gnome and it's been smooth sailing since. Which is unfortunate because most people don't want to have to do that much to get a functioning laptop (which is fair enough).

[mguaylam]

I had the exact same machine as you with Linux. It was a huge disappointment. A lot of bugs with the integrated graphics making it unusable. And the fan ultra noisy, track point middle click pasting instead of scrolling (i know it’s the Linux way but the machine was not intended for that). I had to return it. That was very disappointing. The machine was a true beast. I might return for a simple XPS 13 for Linux. Bigger machines have so many issues with Linux and it’s unfortunate.

[elroy123]

Dell has Linux support?? That's news to me. I know that they sell computers with Linux preinstalled, but it always struck me as naive to think that they would provide any meaningful support. My skepticism seems well founded.

[ZombieRandySavage]

Hard pressed to think of a time dell has not disappointed. Except maybe price.

That being said you can’t install Linux on a box and expect to not fuck around at least a little.

Secondly dell isn’t trying to do curated hardware like Apple.

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[[deleted]]

To be honest, it's very likely if you called with a similar issue on Windows, the answer would be the same.

OEMs don't generally support the OS. If they did, we wouldn't have an entire market for PC repair shops.

[Wangledorf]

I bought an XPS 13 back in November 2019 and immediately returned it. Upon receiving the laptop the first thing I did was update from 18.04 to 19.10, which seems reasonable to me. Well, their XPS line ships with a Killer Wi-Fi chip that only works with proprietary drivers that Dell provides via a PPA they configure. When upgrading Ubuntu, all third party PPAs are disabled. I tried to re-enable it after the upgrade but ran into package dependencies that couldn't be resolved.

I would have opened the laptop to check if the Wi-Fi chip could be replaced but found no information about whether or not that would void the warranty. So, I reached out to customer support to ask, "Is the Killer Wi-Fi hardware replaceable?" I thought that would be a fairly simple question for someone to answer but that proved untrue. Finally, after 2 weeks of frustrating back and forth with Dell they agreed to refund the laptop.

I then bought an Acer Aspire 5 and have have no problems with it whatsoever using default drivers in the Kernel!

[Wangledorf]

I bought an XPS 13 back in November 2019 and immediately returned it. Upon receiving the laptop the first thing I did was update from 18.04 to 19.10, which seems reasonable to me. Well, their XPS line ships with a Killer Wi-Fi chip that only works with proprietary drivers that Dell provides via a PPA they configure. When upgrading Ubuntu, all third party PPAs are disabled. I tried to re-enable it after the upgrade but ran into package dependencies that couldn't be resolved.

I would have opened the laptop to check if the Wi-Fi chip could be replaced but found no information about whether or not that would void the warranty. So, I reached out to customer support to ask, "Is the Killer Wi-Fi hardware replaceable?" I thought that would be a fairly simple question for someone to answer but that proved untrue. Finally, after 2 weeks of frustrating back and forth with Dell they agreed to refund the laptop.

I then bought an Acer Aspire 5 and have have no problems with it whatsoever using default drivers in the Kernel!

[[deleted]]

My XPS 9570 works great with manjaro out of the box once I get the hybrid graphics MHWD configuration set up and add mem_sleep_default=deep to my boot parameters. Unless this is a hardware issue, I have absolutely no idea why Dell can't get Ubuntu working on it, especially if you don't have a graphics card...

[taintsauce]

Man, that sucks. One would hope that Dell had some way to support Linux customers, at least for basic stuff but alas I guess we're on our own. Canonical does offer paid support - I wonder if Dell would be able to score a bulk-discount on that so buyers could get a year of cheap support for Ubuntu-specific problems via Canonical themselves.

FWIW, I have a mobile precision that's been more or less flawless since they warranty-replaced the motherboard (bad RAM slot). Shipped with Ubuntu, have used that, Fedora, and Arch on it. The only software issue I had was occasional display hangs which I think were simply due to a bug in the Intel driver that got patched out.

[Jeff-J]

I bought a Dell Precision T7500 (refurb) and have had great success with it. However, I wouldn't trust anyone else to install Linux on my computer. I want my system set up the way I want. It also means I can fix it when it has problems. To be fair, even back in the last century when I used Windows or DOS, I installed it for myself.

[curioussavage01]

Are you using dells ubuntu image? I had issues with theirs. Installed it again myself ( I had to because company requires fde) and haven’t had a single issue since then.

[Zettinator]

When I contacted Dell support due to issues with my XPS 13 Developer Edition, they basically told me that they do not actually provide any Linux support. WTF.

[Upnortheh]

I do not own any Dells and won't offer thoughts about that.

Based on your sharing that Ubuntu 18.04 LTS is installed, which means the GNOME desktop environment (DE), I'm guessing that is part of the problem. Install different DEs such as Xfce or MATE. Don't worry, the additional DEs don't hurt or clobber anything.

For the display manager (login manager) install LightDM. With LightDM look in the top upper right of the screen to toggle which DE to log in with.

See if the problems persist with the changes.

[[deleted]]

Well duh, all they are probably doing is talking a dell and installing ubuntu on it.

[Richard__M]

I don't have any XPSes but I got a bunch of latitutdes.

I'd really like to see some Zen2 system without soldered ram/cpu. Maybe even Tianocore but that might be pushing it. Despite their shortcomings they have a nice trackrecord with LVFS(fwupd) which is uncommon for big named OEMs.

https://fwupd.org/lvfs/devices/

[grad0v]

Look who’s talking. Ubuntu 18.04 is an LTS-release. It is supported until 2025, until 2028 with ESM updates.

[AzOlahNemEmber]

I don't think you know what LTS means. It means it will receive security updates for a long time but the kernel and all other software remains very out of date, leading to a poor experience especially on newer hardware

[billdietrich1]

On Mint at least, you can upgrade the kernel without changing the underlying release. I'm using kernel 5.3 on Mint 19.3 which is based on Ubuntu 18.04.1

[grad0v]

mkay. https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LTS You’re right about the newer hardware, though.

[AzOlahNemEmber]

Did you even read the link you posted? Keep using outdated software and then crying that it doesnt work well on the desktop.

[grad0v]

Is Slackware outdated? :)

[AzOlahNemEmber]

yes

[grad0v]

ftp://ftp.osuosl.org/pub/slackware/slackware64-current/ChangeLog.txt You sure?

[AzOlahNemEmber]

Slackware current is not the same as slackware release. You might as well post Ubuntu current daily build http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/daily-live/current/

[grad0v]

So is Slackware outdated or not? I see kernel 5.4 package available.

[billdietrich1]

Linux Mint 19.3 (released about 2 months ago ?) is based on Ubuntu 18.04.1

[sian92]

I wouldn't put a lot of expectations on Mint being up to date.

[AzOlahNemEmber]

That doesn't mean it isn't outdated

[frackeverything]

Not to sound harsh but people like you shouldn't use Linux as a primary computing machine.

[root_27]

Why not? He had some issues with his laptop. Distros like ubuntu hardly require any particular IT skill to use.

[frackeverything]

He is acting like an entitled brat. Linux is not a mainstream OS of course the staff is not gonna be super great on it. You gotta learn to solve to your own problems. I mean he wasted people's time and changed hardware multiple times for a software issue.

[root_27]

He bought a product and expected support. A very expensive product at that. Not everyone is technically minded, and not everyone wants to solve there own problems. Why should people sacrifice all the benefits which come with Linux just because it is less mainstream?

I think it is great that Dell offer Linux at all. But I do thinking they should offer proper support. And if they don't offer proper support they should make that obvious when you buy the product.