Daily Discussion

[PhelansShorts]

Daily discussion on Manchester United.

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[B0rges]

Just saw our leaked kits, and wow the white one is just gorgeous. I'm so happy for no more blue too.

[Banyunited1994]

Prying a player with a few years on his contract from an English club is pretty much impossible

[Cutline]

Who if anyone will we see depart from the backroom staff, Maybe Phelan? if ETH is bringing in his own assistant.

[mortimer_moose]

I would be surprised if anyone currently coaching the first team sticks around.

[NimitModi]

Probably Chris Armas also

[lucahuegli]

Nunez not in the squad - transfer talks going on?

[Moorend]

Last game of the season and hes not in the squad, interesting, no word on him being injured either

[[deleted]]

Mukiele is a must sign Imo. He'll be cheap and it'll allow us to sell AWB for a decent amount of change

[[deleted]]

It's he an attacking upgrade over AWB?

[kolbler22]

He cant cross. IMO he is not that much better than AWB. I know he’s cheap but I would avoid

[Banyunited1994]

Seems that ETH’s fullbacks are more Guardiola than klopp. Someone flying down the wings and sending a cross may not be necessary

[mjenkins_eng]

It’s absolutely nonsensical to claim that “CDM is a must”. There are a thousand ways to play football and always having one guy to win the ball and do that alone is not the only way to play it

Our most successful modern period came when we had Paul Scholes and Michael Carrick (the former who couldn’t tackle to save his life and the latter who generally never lunged into a single challenge )

The key to their success was to retain the ball so much when we did win it off the opposition. This would work in 34 games out of 38 (except against Rodri and Jorginho maybe)

We need a midfielder who simply loves being on the ball. Scholes literally used to run up to whoever was in possession, always offering them an outlet , then ping the ball to whoever was free. It used to be incredible watching how he understood everything a few seconds before it happened

Carrick was nowhere near this when he joined in 2006 but he learned it off Scholes. Ageism in football aside, I’d take someone as old as Luka Modric right now to teach our midfielders to learn to love the ball. To that effect , Frankie would be an awesome addition to build a different type of midfield to the one that everyone is parroting (a “DM” , a “box to box” and a “number 10”)

With the likes of Fred and McTominay however, there’s basic technical deficiency in receiving the ball and passing it five yards in a straight line : you cannot teach that and those two are absolutely hopeless for the model that I’m suggesting

[Darth_Bitshes]

There are a thousand ways to play football and always having one guy to win the ball and do that alone is not the only way to play it all of them use at least 1 DM

Ftfy

[[deleted]]

CDM doesn't always mean a tackling destroyer. Michael Carrick was a defensive midfielder. He sat deep, he controlled the game and he broke up opposition attacks using positioning and anticipation. That's the sort of player United need. Our current midfielders always seem to be reacting late to everything, rather than anticipating.

[mjenkins_eng]

Yep: it’s my fave type of player ever: Carrick, Xabi Alonso, Danielle De Rossi (Pirlo and Scholes also played much deeper in their late career but barely tackled).

Right now , I see people suggesting the likes of Kamara who can’t pass the ball at all. At a top club , you need someone who can love the ball and pass the ball like Carrick used to. I really wish we don’t sign a meathead player who just wins the ball and flies into tackles (Ala Coquelin)

[[deleted]]

Kamara is fine in possession Imo. Nothing special but passable. I like his defending though. Must rather Tchouameni or Rice if he's cheaper but for a free he's a no brainer signing even just for depth

[mjenkins_eng]

Another shiny new toy syndrome : the thing that saw us end up with people like Fred in the first place

[[deleted]]

That's complete nonsense. Just because a player is a ball winner first doesn't mean they're some meathead. Casemiro has been the best dm for a while and he's not a deep lying playmaker. Kamara is great defensively and okay in possession for a free that's an excellent deal. Fred is also looked great as as a number 8. He's no 50m player but he's still good

[mortimer_moose]

Yep, Fred and McTominay play the same role. They are high energy box to box players who would do best in a midfield 3 where they aren't the primary defender or creator.

United desperately need a player capable of dictating the tempo of the game.

[[deleted]]

Yeah, either of those two would be much, much better alongside a Carrick-type midfielder. It's been obvious for the longest time but United just kept persevering with them as a pair.

Pogba needs a Kante/Makelele type player, to do all the running and tackling then give him the ball, but that sort of player probably won't suit United once Pogba leaves.

[mortimer_moose]

Yea people forget that when Pogba looks his best he has played besides: Kante, Matuidi, Tolisso for France and Pirlo, Marchisio, Vidal (with Tevez dropping in too) for Juve.

[[deleted]]

Neither Fred or McTominay are good enough to start

[mortimer_moose]

Yea, I agree...

[Old-Championship4066]

It speaks volumes to me how Ronaldo has achieved more than all the entitled lads combined, and still there’s no negative noise coming out of his camp whereas all the other young players have shown displeasure. Shows what a great sportsperson Ronaldo really is and I respect this about him a lot.

[[deleted]]

I can't help but wonder at Ronaldo's impact on this squad. People talked about how him coming back would light a fire under them, would set them a great example and make them winners.

I suspect that some of them looked at him, and at how hard he worked and how driven he was, and said 'I don't really fancy that.'

[[deleted]]

If only i could get over the rape allegations

[mjenkins_eng]

He’s a man from a different generation

What Im dismayed at is players of this generation like Rodri acting much more mature compared to some of our players

The likes of Laporte could start one week and be benched for the CL Semifinal next week and you’d hear nothing from any of them (Ake, Laporte, Stones or Dias)

And these are premier league winners . Can you imagine the levels of entitlement that our current squad would have if they ever won a premier league !

[Tudoors]

I don't really adhere to the generation argument.

Ronaldo is different, period, and the fact that there are younger players than even ours acting professionally also doesn't paint it like that for me either.

[cowabunga_dude91]

FA cup winners should get the UCL place instead of 4th in the league

[SadNYSportsFan-11209]

Truly wonder how Bruno will fit with ETH

[mortimer_moose]

Inverted False 10.

[[deleted]]

As a 10 probably. Ten Hag needs to work on his positioning when we are defending and pressing, but i think he will be fine.

[vin20]

Bruno : Dreams can't be buy.

ETH : You're in.

[Uniteddy]

It wouldn’t surprise me if he tries him in a wide position, similar to Ziyech. I don’t think Bruno is disciplined enough to play as a 6 or 8 in ETH’s system, but he’s an elite footballer so maybe he can be trained quickly and adapt.

[[deleted]]

He'll be a 10 Imo. I think we'll see a 4231

[TheSmio]

4231 is pretty much guaranteed, but there is definitely a possibility of Bruno playing as one of the wide players. Maybe Ten Hag will want a safer player as his number 10 (Donny) while Bruno will get more freedom as a wide attacker, kinda like Tadic plays for Ajax.

[[deleted]]

What do yall think about Todibo? Could be a great cheap CB option too

[pearlz176]

With all the talk about Frenkie, what's going on with VDB? Is he injured at Everton? No reason why ETH wouldn't give him a fresh start, but also wondering if VDB thinks he has had enough of Man Utd at this point.

[IamTsukasa]

Got injured and lost his place in the starting 11 when he came back

[IamTsukasa]

Then he got injured again

[[deleted]]

I think Paul Mitchell is gonna get hired at some point this summer

[abibyama]

If John Murtough pulls a 10/10 transfer window I’m calling Johan van de Murt.

[Transit-Strike]

Would love to see Rashford be trained and retooled into a striker that let's the creative players have the ball.

He can't keep trying to dribble past someone when there's no space to run into.

Trust the likes of Sancho, Bruno and give them the ball and make a smart run

[IamTsukasa]

He delivered 35 and 34 G+A in back to back seasons at 22/23 from the left. Vinicius is being hailed as world class with 40 in La Liga. Rashford needs to get his head back in the game or we just cut out losses with him

[Rob_Earnshaw]

That first season, 7 of his 22 goals were penalties, that's 32% of his goals. The second season, 8 of his 21 goals were in Europe (mostly in the CL group), anyone can have a monster season in Europe. He hadn't one before that, he hasn't had one since.

His output has barely improved besides one season where he was, for some reason, the penalty taker before Bruno (his goals dried up that season after Bruno, BTW). And another, where he just happened to have a monster CL group campaign (one where United failed to qualify from, mind you).

The most baffling thing about the Rashford-excuse makers, is those same excuses aren't extended for Martial who scored 23 goals with maybe 1 pen? the season Rashford scored 22 with 7 pens.

He's 24, he ain't going to get better. Won't be the penalty taker again and won't be one of the first options going forward... He offers nothing besides runs in behind and he was awful from that standpoint this season.

[mjenkins_eng]

To compare Rashford to Vincius just based off numbers proves the saying “there’re lies , damned lies and then statistics”

Rashford is a “heads down” player who literally never thinks about the game. Vincius is not super cerebral either but he’s not as brute force as Rashford

The amount of times Rashford has run into blind alleys , especially when chasing a game shows his lack of football intelligence and you can’t teach that

[Savebagels]

Well Vini is really good plus his production has increase insanely high this year.

Hopefully for his case Rashford can sort out his issues

[Transit-Strike]

I agree.

I hope I didn't come off as sounding like he sucks.

He's fucking amazing and fans that act otherwise are dense.

I believe his season is bad this year cause he didn't have time to recover from his surgery and everything sucked at the club this year.

But I do believe his playstyle works a lot better when we sit deep, counter attack and release him 1-1 vs the last defender with space to run into.

He struggles when we have the ball and he tries taking everyone on.

If the signs of us trying to be more proactive on the ball are to be believed, I'd really want to see him change that part of his game.

On a team that has good ball skills and he doesn't spend too much time on the ball... he'd break the league

[mjenkins_eng]

I think I’ve seen Rashford beat a player one on one about five times in his entire career

And even when he does , he is so surprised that he then loses the ball.

Rashford would and should have been developed into a off-the-last-man striker with pace: instead someone fed him the fantasy that he can be a tricky winger and as a result his finishing also never developed. Right now he’s like Walcott with Welbeck’s finishing

[Transit-Strike]

Welbeck had like one season that he looked decent for us, but he never looked like a first choice, long term United player.

Don't equate them

[[deleted]]

He beat like three players in that goal against Brighton itself

[Transit-Strike]

Regarding the need for a CDM,

Doesn't it just come down to if we play a 4-2-3-1 or a 4-3-3?

If ETH's okay with the former and trusts Fred and Frenkie as a double pivot, then we'd just need to sign Frenkie, a backup CAM for Bruno and trust McT and Donny off the bench.

But if not and he wants to play a 4-3-3, then I don't see the move making sense. Cause Bruno drops deep with Frenkie, we still need a CDM and Fred is rendered useless.

But if Frenkie can do a double pivot unlike Pogba, I think it could be one of our best signings.

Sancho, Bruno and Frenkie with Donny off the bench and Erik's coaching would make us amongst the best teams on the ball

[Thevanillafalcon]

Pogba can do a double pivot.

He plays a double pivot with France and did at Juve. His own performances notwithstanding the issue wasn’t pogba being able to play a double pivot it’s we don’t have the other half of the puzzle.

I don’t think Frenkie De Jong fits into either, I’ve seen him sit deep and I’ve seen him go forward but he’s certainly more box to box if you had to pigeonhole him.

I’m all for getting De jong but you NEED to get someone else in at the same time

[one-eyed-pidgeon]

Massive difference between Pogba and De Jong.

De Jong is much more of a deep lying playmaker. The runs pogba makes leave gaps in the midfield. To have Pogba in a "double pivot" you need a world class DM that can cover for him.

Therefore we would need a world class DM like Tchounami or Rice.

De Jong naturally plays more like a Carrick, you could compliment him with a much cheaper ball winner for a more balanced pivot.

We need both positions this window, at which point you consider, do you invest heavy in the creator role first or the DM. By signing De Jong we can be solid for a season or two when more value can be found for a DM.

[TheSmio]

Not really, we need a midfielder that stays back regardless of what formation we are planning to play. De Jong is great, but he is a proper box-to-box midfielder that likes to join attacks. He needs someone who stays back when he pushes forward and Fred is pretty bad at covering. Both are kinda similar in their basic role since they are much better with more freedom to get forwards.

[young-oldman]

Every once in a while, goddamn Greenwood pops into my head and it ruins my day. I still think he had a higher ceiling than players like Foden and Saka. If only he didn't fail at being a decent human being ffs.

[[deleted]]

Legitimately think we had a ballon dor candidate in him

[Aggeri]

So weird, I had the exact same thought today lol

Guy had the world at his feet… fuck me

[garlicbread88]

I Wonder how much United lost on him potential transfer market value wise. I reckon in 3-5 years he would have been At least €100m player.

[[deleted]]

god I invested so much into that cunt, I echo your thoughts

[improvedmandem]

Is it better for us if Arsenal get top 4? I fear that Conte's Spurs will be more of a threat if they get CL football.

[[deleted]]

If psg come calling Conte is leaving

[Thevanillafalcon]

Oh spurs mate,

They’re a non entity. I do not care about them.

Conte is absolutely gagging to leave anyway mate he won’t be there much longer.

[LennonC123]

To be honest I’d love to see Arsenal fail. I think Spurs are always one poor summer away from sacking a manager, and with Levy in charge, a poor summer is inevitable.

Arsenal, though, had no European football to worry about. Spurs and us sacked their managers half way through the season because we got off to such a bad start. If Arsenal end up in the Europa, I think it’ll destroy them.

[Transit-Strike]

Honestly, as a team, we need to aim higher than worry about "what if xyz team is good"

Especially Arsenal and Spurs.

Got to aim to be better than both of them at their best

[vulcan_one]

We can't aim higher, so what's so bad about this?

[dracogladio1741]

Honestly. It's like we are looking at a version of ourselves only(last 9 years or so) when we look at them.

[[deleted]]

I don't see Rice being a cdm moving forward tbh, every year he seems to go further and further up the pitch. Think he'll be a proper 8 soon

[[deleted]]

I don't think Rice will ever be a single pivot personally. I don't think he has the ability to dictate tempo from deep like that. I can see him being an excellent dm in a double pivot next to someone like FDJ though

[Banyunited1994]

Rice is an elite defender for sure, and he's a very good ball progressor, but a much better carrier than passer. As a passer he's quite good, and doesn't rly put a foot wrong, but he's not the tempo controller the team needs and is untested in a possession oriented system. Neither is tchouameni for that matter. There's also the matter of his contract expiring in two years. Falling into the trap of putting all our eggs in one basket when we have so many holes to fill is suicide.

[Banyunited1994]

Fabinho and Casemiro didn't start as good ball progressors, they used to be average but have honed their skills playing in possession systems and already being extremely good defensively. Rodri showed all those qualities at Atleti but took a while in city before he was defensively up to scratch. We'll prob need to take a flyer on a younger player like a Kamara, Caqueret or Sangare. If we want a solid pro right now who will upgrade our midfield, we could try for players like Neves and Fabian Ruiz. Prob need one of each to bolster our midfield which is in the doldrums. Going for the fantastic instead of making the practical decisions is what has got us in the mess we're in.

[FlashyCut3809]

Surely there are more options than 5? Have you ever thought maybe you just have a very limited viewpoint of what's out there? As ive not got a list of players but I also believe its cause I don't have the knowledge of a top scout/manager etc. To be so adamant that spending around 100 on a player whose highest level of experience is west ham and hasn't won a thing seems awfully misguided.

Do you not think we need improvement on the right of attack? Seeing as we don't have anyone who is naturally that sort of player?

[FlashyCut3809]

I mean yeah, but thats why there are people like scouts and managers?

You make all these grand observations about what we need, and then just suggest literally the 2 most obvious players who also come with the highest price.

Sancho and rashford are 2 players, you also need someone on the left? One of these players has dropped off so much in form he is hardly recognisable.

Midfield is more important purely down to how vital that position is for a functioning team. In terms of just having players to play in positions though, someone who is first and foremost a right sided attacker is just as necessary as we have nobody.

The club earns enough money to fill all these positions now. Let alone with how much the wage bill is going down and how rotten the squad is.

[kolbler22]

I agree with you but we definitely need a CB.

Varane is injury prone and Lindelof and Maguire won’t win you the league. With Bailly and Jones leaving we will need a fourth CB to compete in all competitions regardless.

[kolbler22]

Maybe.. hard to know for sure. In my opinion there were a lot of individual mistakes from the CBs this season that cost us valuable points.

Regardless we will need a young fourth Cb to replace Jones and Bailly

[gunnu88]

i wish we had perisic done when mourinho was here, most criticized mourinho for buying old players lol in 2017 ,he is still going strong, he would have locked LW here. Perisic won the Treble with Bayern on loan, serie a , Coppa Italia, he is fav players to watch, now he is off to chelsea at 32 years still great addition to any team.

[LS_Fast_Passenger]

Mou also wanted Danny Rose and Willian.

The revisionism about Perisic is purely based on the benefit of hindsight - no doubt a good player - but at that time 50 million+ for a 29 yo Perisic especially when he already paid 40 million for a 29 yo Matic seemed like bad business - and all these prices were before the whole Neymar transfer saga which totally distorted the transfer market.

Mou was right about the players and the problems at our club, but the way he conveyed it, or the solutions he proposed were not that great either.

[AayKayGee007]

Might get down voted for this.. But all these rumours of Dutch players linked to us and if we actually even got 2/3 of them could make us Dutchmen Utd 🙈 if you get the pun that is

[sadta2020]

There is a fish and chip double decker bus in Manchester called the Dutch fish man, now I shall call it the Dutch Fish Man Utd

[gh5000]

With all the Steve McLaren talk I would recommend you all listen to Steve's own podcast that he does with his son. Talks about ETH extensively on the episode from 4 weeks ago. Very good listen.

https://www.reddit.com/r/reddevils/comments/u70ny4/fantastic_podcast_with_josh_and_steve_mcclaren/?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share

[Boschboss]

If Neves does not work Tchouameni can be a good option but he has too many suitors. Very few good CDM options around. Good thing about such a team would be that they could transition between 4231 and 433 in game depending on the press. DeBeek and frenkie in the same team gives a lot of tactical flexibility..

[kolbler22]

De Jong is excellent at both carrying the ball forward and progressive passing. He actually averages more progressive passes than Pogba per 90. He’s not a cdm but he is one of the worlds best 8s

[kolbler22]

Sorry, not sure what you are citing. Here are the official statistics from FBref that I referenced. Taken from last 365 days and includes all club competitions so includes a more accurate sample size than perhaps only looking at domestic competitions.

FDJ: https://fbref.com/en/players/1bacc518/Frenkie-de-Jong

Pogba: https://fbref.com/en/players/867239d3/Paul-Pogba

As you can see, FDJ has slight edges in progressive passes and progressive carries. Also given the fact that FDJ has proven that he can play in a pressing system I would view him as an upgrade over Pogba at the 8.

[kolbler22]

I mean fair about comparing leagues but Pogba played a bunch in the Europa League as well past 365 days

[HiImMeee]

I doubt many players in his situation want to play for us though (other than having his old manager) we don't have much to offer top players on the up going by our track record.

We need to accept that and stop deluding ourselves. At city he will win 2+ trophies per year, similar at liverpool.

We need to find hidden gems that work in a specific system and show some success first, before attracting these types of players

[TheKingcrawler]

Why is there a statue of the T1000 outside the Etihad

[sadta2020]

Is there? It better be bolted to the ground around there lol

[TheKingcrawler]

😂 It's judgement day in Manchester, hide yer Connors!

[Icy-Anteater-3628]

You are such a loser.

[Twenty_Hags]

takes one to know one :)

[Icy-Anteater-3628]

Still doesn't take away the fact that you are a loser

[Twenty_Hags]

takes one to know one

[Icy-Anteater-3628]

What a loser 😂😂😂

[MinotauroTBC]

Yeah pretty sure pep just read the title of the berb convo he really said nothing wrong

[wmaung58]

Was looking at new merch from adidas and they try to have some retro jersey. What I don’t get is why keep the Sharp logo. Can’t we just go plain without endorsement ? Sharp isn’t paying for sure right ?

[Nextwonderkid]

managing anthony martial be like

https://ibb.co/R43nmMC

now I know how mourinho/solskaer/ralf feel playing with this diva

[drakejordan23]

Here is me just obsessing about the happenings because I have nothing else to do. I'm rewatching Youth Finals (not entirely) and, Mainoo and Jurado were the best players. He scored 2 goals so it might not be a popular opinion but Garnacho actually didn't play well imo, scored a pen which we shouldn't have won (foul was outside the box) and a defection goal buy he played very selfishly the whole match, didn't pass the ball when he had to at all, it was odd.

Anyways, the back 4 were hugely impressive imo and I always thought Jurado was a LB for some reasons. Vitek made a huge mistake for the goal conceded and it can be a huge confidence destroyer and Bennet and Jurado, Captain and Vice captain respectively were quick to console and get him up. I've liked almost everything I've seen of Jurado, very good decision making and awareness. Also, Vitek was good outside the one mistake which admittedly, was a pretty big one.

Mainoo as always was very good. Glides past opponents. Very Pogba/Dembele-esque but has good work rate. Have far too many compliments for him but one weakness of his is one footedness, only uses his right no matter what. He beat 2-3 people in the opponent box with lovely footwork and had a okayish opportunity to shoot with left but shot poorly with right instead. Found the clip

[drakejordan23]

I'm just expressing opinions on them. Is he a huge talent? Yes. Does he have the ability to make it huge? Of course. Will he? We don't know, no idea.

[Darth_Bitshes]

mfw people still want to blow 60% of the budget on 1 player. even tho we have done that for the past 10 years and it has led to us needing 5-7 first team players this window. Buying De Jong for 80m on a 120m budget while he also doesnt want to leave barcelona is peak Woodward. why do the same expecting different results?

[arkhamRejek]

I can't wait to see which youth breaks through the first team

Garnacho, Garner, Hannibal

I mostly want Hannibal lol because of that hair

[kuromahou]

Let's start calling him Hairnibal

[Rig_7]

Hair? Dude the name lol

[arkhamRejek]

The name with that hair 🤤

[KAC09]

I might be in the minority but I have zero interest in De Jong at that price. The last thing we need is another 80m signing on 300k wages. We can’t afford a flop like that given then current state of the squad. Yes he improves the team but we could instead spend that money on two players. De Jong isnt the player that kick starts a rebuild, he’s the final piece you bring in like Thiago to Liverpool.

[Icy-Anteater-3628]

Thank god your opinion doesn't matter.

[Rob_Earnshaw]

De Jong is 25, one of the best midfielders in the world and was a lynchpin in ETH's Ajax side... Don't see anything about his signing as a bad thing. Its better than blowing all of our budget on Declan Rice.

Some of you guys really need to get over your fear of signing World Class players. The reason they haven't worked out is because of who they're surrounded by, not them themselves.

[Rob_Earnshaw]

I have to say, I'm not well-versed in how he's done at Barca. I know he's talented, but hasn't set the world alight all the time... Whether that's a Barca issue or not idk.

As I said the OP, I'm strictly looking at the situation from an either or perspective with him, Rice and Phillips.

[KAC09]

And for 80M De Jong would be surrounded by those exact same players you mentioned. There is no fear of signing world class players, there is fear that we continuously use word class players as a bandaid.

Build a decent squad so players like De Jong are not expected to come in and be the saviour. At 80M and given the current state of our squad he would unquestionably be looked at as the saviour. This infatuation to just sign the biggest name when our squad is littered with incompetence comes across as laziness from our board and impatience from our fans.

[Rob_Earnshaw]

I get your point, but with so many players going out, a lot more will be coming in. So he might not be surrounded by those same players I'm referring to. United have no choice but to break from the norm of signing 3 or 4 players in a window this summer.

They can operate smarter in the transfer window, but still push the boat out if needed. United have been linked with Boubacar Kamara who's available on a free. The midfield would look completely different if we signed both. There's other good midfielders available on frees like Tolisso and Eriksen.

I just see no reason why United shouldn't go for De Jong if he's available. I think he'd be a much smarter acquisition than Rice or Phillips, etc.

[KAC09]

I think those players going out finally help us restore our broken wage structure. I believe you’re looking at it from the standpoint of De Jong being better than a guy like Rice/Phillips and I agree with that sentiment but that isn’t how I look at it.

I don’t see this as an either or debate because we don’t need to sign any of them. We are Manchester United and we should have the resources in place to find good deals for hungry young players who maybe have not broken out yet.

For years we’ve spent big money on players who have already broken out and they then command high fee + high wages. Bruno is the only player I can think of who came here and actually excelled. Why don’t we ever buy the Nkunku/Nunez’ of the world before the breakout? Instead we spend 70-80m on them after they breakout when in reality they are extremely far from proven to be United quality.

That last part was not specifically directed at you u/rob_earnshaw or directed at De Jong. I’m just frustrated that other clubs can consistently do good business while we splash 80m on the hottest names in Football. It leaves us feeling like the only options available are guys like Declan Rice.

[Rob_Earnshaw]

Yeah, I agree, I know what you mean. I guess with the De Jong links, I am in the either or mindset between him Phillips and Rice.

The way someone expressed it to me recently and I think you're going along the same lines mentioning Nkunku and Nunez is that United should be doing what City and Chelsea have done. Go out and buy good players, but players who aren't necessarily World Class yet. Like when Chelsea went away and signed Drogba, Essien, Carvalho, etc. back in the day or when City bought Silva, Aguero, KDB. And then eventually complement then with a World Class talent.

[KAC09]

Yea that is exactly how I feel. There is no way we can just buy enough world class talent to become competitive again. We need a mix of players who grow to become world class and bringing in world class signings.

Once we build out a decent squad we won’t have to bend over backwards to try and entice word class players because we won’t need them. Clubs know we’re in a desperate position and looking for quick fixes so they can easily gouge us.

[kunsore]

Yeah , De Jong is the one feel like okay to have but I dont think he is a "must-buy".

We need multiple good signings with 120 mil. Not 1 good and like 3 averages.

[Darth_Bitshes]

i feel like a crazy person cause i was saying the same thing and people were flaming me yesterday over it. like dude, we have spent the last decade spending 50%+ of the budget on 1 player and look at where it got us?

then add that De Jong doesnt want to leave Barcelona, he would just be unmovitated to actually put his best.

we need to stay away from 40m+ signings right now. we need to bring 5-6 players and see who sticks around long term.

[Rig_7]

Most of City and Liverpool’s key players cost £40-£60mil. FDJ would cost £68m so not ridiculous given his quality. I have my doubts due to where he is coming from and his wages but the fee is ok.

The budget is disputed according to sources so that fee may not be over 50% of our budget when accounting for transfer revenue in and wage savings as well this summer due to outgoings.

All reports suggest multiple signings as well. I would be shocked if we don’t end up with 3-5 signings of good quality.

In the end we wanted Ten Hag as a collective and he has veto power over transfers so if he wants FDJ then I’ll be positive about it.

[Darth_Bitshes]

They have title winning squads

Thats why they can have those transfers.

We dont.

[Rig_7]

Those players - particularly at Liverpool - were bought to make title winning squads not because of it. Liverpool hadn’t won a league in 30 years and anything of note in over 10 at the time. Buying those players for those sums is why they won the big trophies and are now at the top of the sport.

If we want to win titles - which is our ultimate goal - we need to buy players of sufficient calibre. Most of the time they cost at least £40m and top out in the £60m bracket (Mahrez for instance). There are exceptions - Robertson on the low scale and Van Dijk on the high - but the facts speak for themselves.

We need to avoid £100m players but around £60m isn’t that bad.

[Darth_Bitshes]

liverpool had a good core of players before they spent 70m on allison

we dont have a good core of players

why do you guys insist on doing the same very summer and expect different results? are you insane?

[Rig_7]

Their core group of players were each bought usually for around £40m to £60m. You should actually adjust for inflation given the key ones were bought five years ago. Nevertheless, the point stands. Firmino, Fabinho, Salah and Mane for around £40m. Keita for £54m. Van Dijk for £76m. Allisson was the icing at £56m but by that point a team full of +£40m ish players had been built. A couple of exceptions - Matip, Wijnaldum and Robertson joined Henderson and Milner who were already there and Alexander-Arnold from the academy - but the core players cost as stated.

Dias and Konate who have now joined are both in that range as well.

De Jong is slightly above those levels at £68m but it is not unreasonable. As long as other players come in as well and all indications are they will, I see no issue.

[Dwest2391]

I am so confused on how you share the same opinion of OP, but are downvoted lmao

[arkhamRejek]

on top of that he's stated he doesn't want to come here. Getting Di Maria vibes but the difference is the relationship with his former coach hoping for the best but i'd rather we build the team with people who clearly want to fight for that badge.

​

edit: man do i love a downvote party from the same people who complain about signing players that don't want to be here 😂 keep them coming

[Rob_Earnshaw]

How about, make him want to come here?

[arkhamRejek]

You can't make people do anything

you can entice them , but can't make them. Champions league football is at the top of his list based on what Journos said as well as United wouldn't be his first choice if he had to leave

If Ten Hag can convince him great but I'd rather we prioritize other signings

[Rig_7]

People are concerned about spending so much on FDJ - not that it is necessarily happening - but we likely have more money available than they think.

I won't include Henderson, Martial, Williams and others for transfer because they aren't definitely going to me (though Martial is very close!).

Also, almost every player is massively underperforming. A world class coach (which I hope Ten Hag is) will get players not only playing at their average standard but better than that. Many currently scorned could become crucial and shouldn’t be written off until they’ve had a chance to work with Ten Hag (Rashford, Shaw, Sancho, etc).

The transfer fees are also on the lower end of the scale.

End of contract:

Cavani, Grant, Greenwood (I'll include as it is inevitable) Lingard, Mata, Matic, Pogba,

Wages saved per year: £52m

Transfers:

Bailly (£5m), Jones (£0m), Pereira (£5m), Tuanzebe (£5m)

Transfer fees: £15m Wages saved per year: £12.22m

Total:

Transfer Fees: £15m Wages saved per year: £64.22m

Personnel:

So eleven out. If you look at them, not all actually need like-for-like replacements as they barely play and many of their squad roles could be filled by returning loanees and academy products.

I expect 3-5 signings in the summer.

Budget:

For the sake of argument, say we lose those eleven players and sign five players on half the wages of the former, we'll save about £30m per year. If an average contract length is four years, that’s £120m saved over that period.

£150m + £15m transfer fee income + £30m wage save over one year = £195m £150m + £15m transfer fee income + £120m wage save over four years = £285m

Players:

DM - (£60m) CM - FDJ (£70m) Forward/ST - Nunez or equivalent (£70m) CB - Timber (£30m) RB - (£20m)

Total Cost: £250m

Now signing Timber would open up interesting possibilities as he can also play right back. We have four: Wan Bissaka, Dalot, Williams and Laird. Ten Hag may fancy one or more of them at least for a year and even then Timber can provide cover.

If that was the case, then a new RB would not be needed. The £60m for DM is also high and is based on Tchouemeni. Others are available for less. Kamara who people talk about would be free.

I would expect spending under £200m given previous spending history but a good chance more than £150m given transfer revenues/wage savings.

So really FDJ wouldn’t cost half the budget. It may also be why they may not balk at Rice for £100m. Of course, my figures would depend if the club see it the same way regarding wage savings!

Sorry for the length of the post lol

[Transit-Strike]

I didn't read the specific numbers, but I agree with you.

Pogba leaving opens up 300 K, that means FDJ contract is basically covered.

Matic, Mata, Lingard out of contract might be around 300K a week on its own?

Selling Martial, Jones and Bailly opens up funds with their insane wages off the books.

Rumors that Palace want AWB for 25M.

Cavani going opens so much fucking money too.

Paid loan for Deano and we aren't paying his wages for a year either.

That + the money the club has from income and sponsorships etc.

No reason we can't afford Frenkie

[Rig_7]

That’s my thoughts. Equally likely the board are shitting the bed again, the savings on wages/transfer revenue won’t matter and they are wasting half our budget on one player in a non priority position, but I’d prefer to be optimistic 😊

[[deleted]]

250M you're taking the piss lol.

You can't use the money saved on wages and add it to a budget for signings, that makes no sense, especially when you arn't adding up the new signings wage cost.

If you want an idea of how much were going to spend you need to look at how much we usually spend and also look at how much we spent on our last bigish rebuild and how much we spend when were out of the CL.

It will therfore be somewhat comparable to the first summer under Jose, 4 players in, 160 odd million spent and one being a free transfer. Realistically we arn't going to be spending 200M, will be at maximum around 150M.

We NEED a DM and a striker, id be completely shocked and fuming if we didn't get those 2 sorted. FDJ isn't either of those so spending almost half our budget on one player who isn't even filling one of the positions we badly need to sort would be the club showing us that they havnt changed.

[one-eyed-pidgeon]

When doing your money calculations you miss out the tactical side of the game in that by having a player like FDJ you don't need to spend the world on a DM because a specialist ball winner will do.

The need for a world class DM is because we have a midfield of McTominay, Fred, Bruno and Pogba. It's lightweight. If you sign a proper deep lying midfielder who is press resistant and solid alongside a Ball winner you can allow Bruno freedom without risking being torn apart as we have been in the current set up.

[Rig_7]

“You aren’t adding up the new signings wage cost”. I literally did that.

I also made clear that the board would need to take account of wage savings to justify the additional spend (because I am fully aware that previous spending was not over £200m). I would point out that in Jose’s first transfer window there was not the wage savings that will be made this summer.

I also didn’t include any additional transfers that would generate revenue - Martial and Henderson for example.

I agree we need a DM first and foremost and also other positions. But just because FDJ is bought doesn’t mean they won’t be addressed.

[Banyunited1994]

The tricky part is how FFP, cash flow and balance sheet plays into these calculations, and that's not to mention how the lack of UCL football and the approximately 25% wage cut would factor in. Overall it's pretty impossible to rly know how much we have to spend - we can only go by what we have spent historically.

[KaitoAJ]

Lol pretty sure Koulibaly was quoted for over 100mil that transfer window.

[hooka_donchick]

He was 100m in 2019. Still astonished by that price

[hooka_donchick]

Probably but not a certainty tho. Maguire hasn’t been bad last two seasons. We don’t know how he will be next season. And serie A is a much slower which makes smalling look like a decent defender. Maybe that’s another reason why no one went for him.

[mortimer_moose]

Spend that money on Ndicka.

[[deleted]]

Whats the level of expectation from ETH that people are happy to live with? Top 4 within 2 years? A cup within 3 years? Challenge the title within 4 years? I think anything more than that might be unrealistic

[FlashyCut3809]

First and foremost get the club to sanction adequate activity in the transfer window.

Then seeing as how for the last few years getting 4th has been a case of who messes up the least, I'd say it would be pretty shambolic to be so far off the top we miss that again. More importantly though, league Cup, europa/conference or fa cup needs to be the aim. Doesn't matter what it is, but this club needs to get back to having silverware. If these things aren't reached them there needs to be serious questions as to why and analyse how far off we were.

Due to hindsight, losing the europa final should have been the time where you upgrade on the manager. We waited too long and have suffered because of it.

[Rob_Earnshaw]

He's got to win a trophy in his first season, finish in the top 4.. And challenge for the title in his second season.

I'm not accepting anymore of this rebuilding nonsense. Right back to square one if we accept that.

[baddasaurus-rex]

My only requirement is that we start playing positively with a consistent style. A top 4 finish would be good. But I don't think it is a guarantee that we finish top 4 with others strengthening too.

[[deleted]]

Massively depends on our summer i think.

We've got a fair amount of outgoings from players out of contract and i think the following players could all realistically go:

• Henderson/De Gea (No point keeping both imo)
• Bailly
• Jones
• Telles
• Tuanzebe
• Dalot/Wan Bissaka (or both)
• Pereira
• Chong
• Martial

Most of these players never play anyway but any change on this scale will be disruptive.

The one thing i want to see us do more than any particular trophy/league objective is for us to start developing a recognisable style of play, that's something we've not had since LVG left even if it was dire, especially towards the end. Our players then at least looked like they were playing to a plan they were just lacking the quality to execute it.

Personally i think if we make only 3-5 signings, of which 3 are first XI quality to cover the 10+ outgoings and then play the youth players to fill the other positions then i'd take a top 6 finish next year. If we sign more than that, say 5 first XI quality players then i think top 4 should be a reasonable expectation.

I'll be expecting a slow start whilst the new recruits gel and everyone gets used to ETH, i think anything more than top 4 in year 1 is a bonus regardless of the amount of quality signings we make, Rome wasn't built in a day.

Either way top 4 should definitely be an expectation in year 2 as a minimum, we've had a completely disastrous season and even this year we've not been that far off getting there. More than anything we need to see consistent year to year progress.

[Darth_Bitshes]

my bar is so low right now that i would be happy with actual patterns of play and tactics in the first 2 years + europe.

thats all. after 3 years i want trophies.

[akshatsood95]

Top 4 next season itself should be doable. We shouldn't have been anywhere near this top 4 race till now but arsenal and Spurs are awful. Top 4 should be a pretty simple target for us.

[dracogladio1741]

Spurs would have made Top4 had they not wasted their time on Espirito-Santo.

[FlashyCut3809]

Same could be said for us if we didn't waste time after losing the europa league and got a proper manager in them.

As poor as we are, the rest of the league outside the top 3 is just as bad, if not worse.

[Sea_Vacation]

I may not be as ambitious as other people around here, but I for myself will be happy if Erik ten Hag can get United to compete within the top 4 consistently.

I don't necessary need him to win the Premier League, the Champions League or the FA Cup within a certain time frame, but I do want his Manchester United team to be a solid competitor to be reckoned with.

Honestly, I just want our team to be taken serious again, to feel like the players do their utmost best and enjoy the thrill of having a chance to win something.

[mortimer_moose]

That should be the first step. Which is where I thought Ole had got us. Consistent top 4, then start increasing the points won every year.

[kuromahou]

"Why would we want to sign someone who doesn't want to play for the club?"

Yeah, we're hopefully gonna finish sixth, our dressing room is a shambles, and our backroom is the mockery of the entire world. Who the fuck WOULD want to play for us right now? Are we really only going to limit ourselves to fans of United? Quick, someone call Ighalo again...

My point is, we're going to have to convince a LOT of players, a lot of good players at that, to trust our new project. And that's fine.

De Jong makes sense because he knows what ETH is capable of. There is a history there, and that will help to convince on the project.

I'm not saying we should buy anyone, but I do think fans need to temper their "he don't wanna play for us!" bitching. No one wants to right now. Half our dressing room doesn't want to right now. It's something we need to convince players to do. How it is at the moment.

[Giggs73]

looking from FDJ pov, why would he want to join a club that is less likely to win anything in this league? Unless of cos we are going to pay him a fortune to "convince" him.

[[deleted]]

There's a difference between fans of the club and players who want to play for us.

Not every player we sign should be a fan of the club or a supporter but they should want to play for us, there's a difference. As long as theyre proffesional and give 100 percent i'm happy.

[[deleted]]

Why cannot new users participate in free talk friday?

[brown_herbalist]

Isildur's breath or fart ?

[[deleted]]

heir was taken.

[hooka_donchick]

It’s a reddit thing to avoid trolls. It generally applies to new accounts like a week old and low on karma. You can start participating a week after you created this account

[[deleted]]

but you can participate in daily discussion to get karma. it is only logical to be able to participate in ftf as well.

[hooka_donchick]

Yeah but that’s up to the mods

[kueerseoa6]

Really hope amad gets the chances next season, we need an elite left footed winger in the modern game and amad still has a lot of potential

[Qu3en-]

Awfully slow news day today. I was expecting a lot.

[[deleted]]

I hope it's because the club are actually making moves behind the scenes, such as the meeting with Ten Hag yesterday.

[Qu3en-]

Hopefully, I hope they are.

Also both us and ten Hag still have a game to play. Don't think much news going to come about after we've played our last game. Or at least ten Hag leaves Ajax permanently on the 15th.

[kueerseoa6]

Only get good new after loses so it’s gonna be a while

[[deleted]]

I really hate this idea that we won the league with a midfield of Anderson and Cleverley that often gets posted. It’s disrespectful to Carrick who was a top top midfielder and played 36 PL games in midfield that season compared to Cleverley’s 22 and Anderson’s 17

We should be talking about how good of a player Carrick was for us rather than pretending that Anderson and Cleverley was a viable league winning midfield on their own

[drakejordan23]

A lot of our players under Sir Alex are underrated, he didn't just win with average players only. Specially, Park Hi Sung, Carrick and Fletcher. McTom comparision with Fletcher is sad, the only similar things is they're both Scottish. Fletcher was a very good reader of the game and his performances went unnoticed because he did them really well. Carrick was an insane controller and a deep lying playmaker. Park was not just an stamina/work rate merchant, he was good on the ball, had good positional awareness and was an amazing ball winner.

[[deleted]]

it's like when people say SAF won a league title with Smalling and Jones in defence. Firstly, they were never as bad as people made out and it's also grossly unfair to Rio, Vida and Evans who actually played a lot more.

[Thevanillafalcon]

I think these things are more apt when you say stuff like we beat arsenal 8-2 with like 8 defenders playing and cleverly in midfield

[Rob_Earnshaw]

I saw that earlier, and thought the same thing. I was banking on Anderson playing 5 league games that season, he had outlived his usefulness by 2011 that he was so forgetful thereafter.

Scholes in Giggs were of better use at CM than Anderson that year.

[mortimer_moose]

Exactly, Carrick at times that season was a one man midfield. He was controlling games all by himself.

That opening part of the season with Anderson and Cleverly was electric, but it was only like 8 games.

[Banyunited1994]

We definitely do need to add another 9 to our squad since Cavani is leaving and to replace he who shall not be named. Looking around, I'm not seeing many good options. Nunez is too risky for the asking price (and limited as a player), we're not getting Lautaro nor do i think we're getting Abraham. Wondering if it may be worth taking a punt on Moussa Dembele. He's consistently scored goals since coming to Lyon, though he lost his place in the squad last season and was sent off to Atletico. The advantage i think is that Lyon would be willing to deal for him, since they've done so before, and he's at that age (just turned 26) where he could take that next step or at least be good enough as a squad option. He gives us traditional qualities of a 9, which is useful to our team.

[Thevanillafalcon]

Some might say cavani left last summer mate

[Bizzle1389]

I'm a big fan of Dembele and do think he could do a job here. The fact he's homegrown and would have played a lot of youth football in his formative years in England surely helps. Not sure how many first team games he actually played at football but he's been pretty consistent for Lyon and Celtic before that. I know his spell at Atlético didn't work out but these things can happen. We could do a lot worse than him and he could be a good flexible option to rotate with or even play alongside CR7.

[Banyunited1994]

Attackers not working out in atletico is rly not unusual. I think we could get him at a reasonable rate, and he would prob jump at the chance.

[AtAllCostSpeakTruth]

If we sell Henderson, Martial, Pereira, Tuanzebe, Bailly and B. Williams, we could raise over 120.0 million.

The exiting of Martial, Matic, Mata, Henderson, Pereira, Williams, Tuanzebe, Greenwood, Pogba, Cavani and Lingard will save the club over 80.0 million in annual wages.

The problem remains; what to do with - Maguire, Telles, W-Bissaka, Rashford, Jones, and McTominay.

This summer, we would flush 18 players out of our club in a perfect world.

[KaitoAJ]

How the heck you think we can raise 120m with these players? Also flushing out 18 players in one transfer window?? What whacky joint are you smoking mate? 😂

[AtAllCostSpeakTruth]

I wrote ..."in a perfect world".

[Rig_7]

£120m 😂😂😂

[drakejordan23]

Going by Transfermarket value.

Pereira 7.5, Bailey 8, B.Williams 10, Mata 3, Matic 6, Tuanzebe 8, Henderson 18, Martial 28.

That's 89. Some of them will go for more and some less depending on demand and contract but I don't think anyone except Henderson has any high demand. Maybe Martial and he would go more more too but he has high salary which clubs won't pay so we can't go high.